Intelligent Design / Natural Filtration

[OllieNZ]

I'm enjoying the read as well, keep up the ramble. The idea of running a more natural tank fascinates me. On of my favourite freshwater tanks was a self sustaining set up the owner could leave for weeks at a time with nothing but water top offs.

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by OllieNZ

I'm enjoying the read as well, keep up the ramble. The idea of running a more natural tank fascinates me. On of my favourite freshwater tanks was a self sustaining set up the owner could leave for weeks at a time with nothing but water top offs.

When I set up my first large system, I was working oversea on a 28 day on 28 day off work schedule. My display tank at 150G sat on a cabinet that would not allow for a sump or refugium. I used up one side of a two car garage and plumbed in a remote refugium propagation system. The refugiums consisted of two 55G tanks and the propagation troughs consisted of two 4' by 8' by 6" deep plywood tanks. When I was home, I feed heavily with the macro and pod population increasing dramatically. When I was gone for 28 days, the refugiums feed the tanks. I had no automatic feeders except for complex food webs that provided nutrient recycling.

PS. Interesting signature. Boredom in mankind may well provide some drive, I don't think it put us on top of the evolutionary ladder. I believe in a Creator that is the author of Intelligent Design. He gave us an inate appetite to strive and grow.

[OllieNZ]

Originally Posted by Subsea

When I set up my first large system, I was working oversea on a 28 day on 28 day off work schedule. My display tank at 150G sat on a cabinet that would not allow for a sump or refugium. I used up one side of a two car garage and plumbed in a remote refugium propagation system. The refugiums consisted of two 55G tanks and the propagation troughs consisted of two 4' by 8' by 6" deep plywood tanks. When I was home, I feed heavily with the macro and pod population increasing dramatically. When I was gone for 28 days, the refugiums feed the tanks. I had no automatic feeders except for complex food webs that provided nutrient recycling.

PS. Interesting signature. Boredom in mankind may well provide some drive, I don't think it put us on top of the evolutionary ladder. I believe in a Creator that is the author of Intelligent Design. He gave us an inate appetite to strive and grow.

Unfortunately I don't have the space for such an extensive propagation setup so I'll have to make do with things that will fit in a smaller space like an algae turf scrubber.
I do find the parallels between your method and the above freshwater setup interesting. The gentleman running that attributed his success to the stocking levels of fish/inverts/pods/worms and plants. This is the tank if it's of any interest http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/t...the-end.14521/

The signature is to be thought provoking (and perhaps entertaining) nothing more, it's based on a quote from my favorite author (Sir Terry Pratchett) in one of his novels.
His novels despite being works of fiction provide a rather astute if a touch satirical representation of life in general. Another couple of quotes.....

“Wisdom comes from experience. Experience is often a result of lack of wisdom.”

“The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.”

“It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life."

[Subsea]

Thank you for the link. Yes, the parallel is there. I like Tom's set up.

I laughed a lot when I read some of the quotes from Sir Terry Prachett.

"The trouble with having an open mind is people will come along and insist on trying to put stuff in it."

Thanks for the laugh.

[OllieNZ]

Originally Posted by Subsea

Thank you for the link. Yes, the parallel is there. I like Tom's set up.

I laughed a lot when I read some of the quotes from Sir Terry Prachett.

"The trouble with having an open mind is people will come along and insist on trying to put stuff in it."

Thanks for the laugh.

And thank you for sharing your experiences with us

[zeemofree]

Originally Posted by Subsea

I am a laisafaire reef keeper. They are more work with sandbed maintenance. Without strict attention to sandbed cleaning, they easily become a nutrient sink. Particularly with the corse substrate used in the Jaubert Plenumn. The Ron Schmeck method is differrent. It's primary goal is nutrient recycling which feeds corals and fish, live nutritious food. However, I think this can be accomplished with a refugium. I like my Eco-System mud filter for that purpose.

Do you think my system with dual chambers on to catch particulate matter to keep the main reverse flow deep sand bed clean, will end up being a nutrient sink? I designed it to be a calc reactor/denitrator, with very low flow, It is working very well currently but it is somewhat new.


What do you think about doing a Jaubert system with calcium reactor media for 4 inches and them an inch or two of course sand?

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by zeemofree

Do you think my system with dual chambers on to catch particulate matter to keep the main reverse flow deep sand bed clean, will end up being a nutrient sink? I designed it to be a calc reactor/denitrator, with very low flow, It is working very well currently but it is somewhat new.


What do you think about doing a Jaubert system with calcium reactor media for 4 inches and them an inch or two of course sand?

If your dual chambers, equate to a settleling basin, I would think that your up flow DSB would stay in good shape. Might I ask you, what is your main goal in this design?

What size substrate is calcium reactor media? In my use of calcium reactors, I used Caribsea Crushed Coral with very good results.

PS: I thought your Franentank thread was diffenitely outside the box of mainstream thinking. I found it very interesting and will be following your thread.

Also, thank you for your service. I really think that it is neat that you have involved your 5 year old in this fascinating hobby.

[zeemofree]

Originally Posted by Subsea

If your dual chambers, equate to a settleling basin, I would think that your up flow DSB would stay in good shape. Might I ask you, what is your main goal in this design? What size substrate is calcium reactor media? In my use of calcium reactors, I used Caribsea Crushed Coral with very good results. PS: I thought your Franentank thread was diffenitely outside the box of mainstream thinking. I found it very interesting and will be following your thread. Also, thank you for your service. I really think that it is neat that you have involved your 5 year old in this fascinating hobby.

Calcium reactor media varies in size, my main goal with is to have a more natural system that provides natural replenishment of minerals. I am striving for a tank that ranked care of itself and has superior stability.

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by Paul B

Yeah Baby, plenty to go around I love this thread.

Paul,
I have always enjoyed reading your post. You and I have always been a thorn in the side of the teckies.
I have always focused on bacteria as the foundation for a thriving reef aquarium. Your recent focus on gut bacteria to improve fish immune systems intrigues me. During further research, I was amazed to find out that 80%-90% of neuro transmitters in the brains of people are produced in their intestines. Considering that these neuro transmitters effect every aspect of human physiology, it is an easy deduction for me to see enhanced immunity as a natural response to these bacteria.
Keep it coming.

[Paul B]

Subsea, it is too early for most people to grasp this. They are still in the quarantine and sterile, "don't let any dirt, bacteria, parasites into your tank" phase. Just like us humans were at the turn of the century. Eventually they will learn. I will be gone then, but it will happen.

[NS Mike D]

Originally Posted by Paul B

Subsea, it is too early for most people to grasp this. They are still in the quarantine and sterile, "don't let any dirt, bacteria, parasites into your tank" phase. Just like us humans were at the turn of the century. Eventually they will learn. I will be gone then, but it will happen.

Paul and SubSeas, I was watching food 4 partt series on Netflix, and one was dedicated to bacteria and fungi. Not only do chefs use bacteria and fungi to create awesome flavors and textures, they spoke about the health benefits.

For example, fermentation in making bread from whole wheat (not the supermarket fake stuff) sustained human society for eons. Now we strip out all the good nutrients of wheat leaving empty carbs.

The sterile tank approach reminds me of what we have done to our own food chain.

[Paul B]

That is correct, but like I said, we will eventually learn. It will take some time though. I am also at fault because I was here at the start of this hobby and I also didn't get it for many years. Now my fish are immune and I never have to go on disease or quarantine threads and basically ignore them.
I try to tell people how I feel we should get our fish healthy and immune but I gave up on this site because it turns into arguments and I am to old to argue. I get nasty letters telling me how I am a detriment to the hobby for telling people these things.
This is a very large site with many people and they all have opinions. Many people started last Tuesday and they are of course correct. So I gave up on here.

[Green Chromis]

Originally Posted by Paul B

Subsea, it is too early for most people to grasp this. They are still in the quarantine and sterile, "don't let any dirt, bacteria, parasites into your tank" phase. Just like us humans were at the turn of the century. Eventually they will learn. I will be gone then, but it will happen.

Hi, just did a complete change of the sand in my tank, collected from the outer reefs off the Florida Keys over the last month. With the sand change I removed all the old sand with a lot detritus and mulm. The new sand is full of worms and other micro and macro flora and fauna, and will hopefully enrich my bacteria colonies on the live rock. I believe in adding or changing the substrate every so often just to add new life to my system, plus I am able to redo the rock work, just make sure you wear gloves when handling the rock. Paul does changing sand or adding sand to your system have the same benefits as adding the mud you collect for your system, if not their are plenty of mud banks to collect mud from, that I could add to my fuge. My primary live food for my fish is Sargasso Shrimp and pods, and I like how you maintain your system using live food as a source for beneficial bacteria for your fish.

[scubadan206]

I like miracle mud personally. Any time it comes up in an RC thread, it seems to turn into an argument claiming the creator is just a schiester, and the product is just mud from his backyard or something.
Some people really do seem to have a personal problem with it.
My system is almost 500 gallons with about 375 gallons functioning as various types of refugium areas. Also a frag grow-out and an area for miracle mud.

Daniel.

[Subsea]

Daniel,
I have an EcoSystem mud filter. To the best of my knowledge, miracle mud provides an inert fine silt that can be colonized by worms. In my application, I allowed unfiltered tank water to deposit detritus as a nutrient source to feed worms and pods. They performed nutrient recycling and feed filter feeders in the tank. This could also be used as an unlit refugium for pods. Some of the original miracle mud that was analyzed showed high iron content. I consider trace mineral addittion of iron a good think in our reef tanks.

[scubadan206]

I really wonder how when so many systems we admire use it, and so many aquarists we look up to would not start a tank without it, that people still lobby that it is a waste of money.

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by scubadan206

I really wonder how when so many systems we admire use it, and so many aquarists we look up to would not start a tank without it, that people still lobby that it is a waste of money.

Generally speaking, reef hobbiest are passionate about their systems. Sometimes it is like discussing religion or politics. Instead of a dialogue, it's a discourse with people not hearing the other point of view. All to often, equipment manufactures have a following of lobiest that are proponents of that method. Many differrent methods of reef keeping will work. The methods used in nano and pico tanks would not be the same as those of us with large extended systems.

[mr9iron]

Thanks for sharing. I am subscribed!

[OllieNZ]

Originally Posted by Subsea

Generally speaking, reef hobbiest are passionate about their systems. Sometimes it is like discussing religion or politics. Instead of a dialogue, it's a discourse with people not hearing the other point of view. All to often, equipment manufactures have a following of lobiest that are proponents of that method. Many differrent methods of reef keeping will work. The methods used in nano and pico tanks would not be the same as those of us with large extended systems.

Unfortunately this can be one of the most difficult things for a new hobbyist. Many people want instant success, throwing a load of money at a bunch of kit is certainly easy and with the right kit (and a lot of work) you'll certainly be successful. Due to the lack of experience outside of this box, the box becomes gospel and anything outside is to be feared, denounced or ridiculed.
I think it's good for out of the box thinking to be shared.

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by Green Chromis

Hi, just did a complete change of the sand in my tank, collected from the outer reefs off the Florida Keys over the last month. With the sand change I removed all the old sand with a lot detritus and mulm. The new sand is full of worms and other micro and macro flora and fauna, and will hopefully enrich my bacteria colonies on the live rock. I believe in adding or changing the substrate every so often just to add new life to my system, plus I am able to redo the rock work, just make sure you wear gloves when handling the rock. Paul does changing sand or adding sand to your system have the same benefits as adding the mud you collect for your system, if not their are plenty of mud banks to collect mud from, that I could add to my fuge. My primary live food for my fish is Sargasso Shrimp and pods, and I like how you maintain your system using live food as a source for beneficial bacteria for your fish.

I think new sand from the Keys will be great. Probably one of the best things you could do. If you never add new bacteria, especially from the sea, you will be left with whatever the LFS has for bacteria which as we know, will not be the best choice or the most diverse. It will also probably have a large percentage of disease causing bacteria without the needed beneficial bacteria you will now have from the sea.
I add bacteria and mud a few times a year and get "reprimanded" for it. I run a reverse UG filter and get "reprimanded for it. I never quarantine and get "reprimanded for it. I create typhoons and get reprimanded for it. I dose driveway ice melter and baking soda and get reprimanded for it. I collect amphipods in the sea and dump them in my tank and get reprimanded for it. I also have the longest running very healthy system where everything spawns, but many people don't want to hear that because my methods can't possibly work. My fish also can't be immune as that is impossible so it must be luck. Of course my fish have never been exposed to velvet because that would crash my tank so I am really lucky. I got my fireclowns when Reagan was President. (I am not sure they voted for him or not) Of course I can't add any tangs because they are ich magnets and are never immune.
I am certainly not the God of fish, not the smartest one on here and my tank if far from the best tank on here and I am much better with fish than corals but in 60 years I have learned a lot of things not to do.

I have no opinion on Miracle Mud as I have never used it because I have access to real mud and it is free.

[JonezNReef]

Originally Posted by OllieNZ

Unfortunately this can be one of the most difficult things for a new hobbyist. Many people want instant success, throwing a load of money at a bunch of kit is certainly easy and with the right kit (and a lot of work) you'll certainly be successful. Due to the lack of experience outside of this box, the box becomes gospel and anything outside is to be feared, denounced or ridiculed.
I think it's good for out of the box thinking to be shared.

I agree...its amazing what nature can do in our mini ecosystems that we think we have to control and manipulate rather than recreate or let happen. And all of our tanks are like ecosystems though out the world, many are alike but no 2 are exactly the same.

[Paul B]

If we more or less stay out of it we would have much less problems. Our animals evolved right alongside bacteria, parasites and what many of us consider pests. Seawater is also quite stable as long as we don't mess with it. I never tweeked the pH in my life and never will.
I rarely tweek, use no carbon, have no controllers, no GFO, no bio pellets, no quarantine, and no problems.

[Nano sapiens]

Yay, one of my favorite topics

I've been enjoying the reef hobby for over 3 decades (saltwater for 4) and have rarely used a skimmer, GAC, etc. My last 55g ran nearly 10 years before I took it down. I currently run a 12g mixed reef cube which has been in continual operation for over 8 years using the same 'natural filtration' principles.

The stability inherent in these 'simple' systems is what makes them so long lived, in my opinion.

[Nano sapiens]

Originally Posted by Paul B

I think new sand from the Keys will be great. Probably one of the best things you could do. If you never add new bacteria, especially from the sea, you will be left with whatever the LFS has for bacteria which as we know, will not be the best choice or the most diverse. It will also probably have a large percentage of disease causing bacteria without the needed beneficial bacteria you will now have from the sea.
I add bacteria and mud a few times a year and get "reprimanded" for it. I run a reverse UG filter and get "reprimanded for it. I never quarantine and get "reprimanded for it. I create typhoons and get reprimanded for it. I dose driveway ice melter and baking soda and get reprimanded for it. I collect amphipods in the sea and dump them in my tank and get reprimanded for it. I also have the longest running very healthy system where everything spawns, but many people don't want to hear that because my methods can't possibly work. My fish also can't be immune as that is impossible so it must be luck. Of course my fish have never been exposed to velvet because that would crash my tank so I am really lucky. I got my fireclowns when Reagan was President. (I am not sure they voted for him or not) Of course I can't add any tangs because they are ich magnets and are never immune.
I am certainly not the God of fish, not the smartest one on here and my tank if far from the best tank on here and I am much better with fish than corals but in 60 years I have learned a lot of things not to do.

I find the Forums quite resistent to novel approaches that don't involve a lot of money, aren't Tech heavy and/or aren't sponsored by some big name commercial outfit. Now I'm all for skepticism, but when someone can show honest proof of results over an extended time period then I certainly take notice and explore the topic in more depth.

Adding natural sand/mud to your system has worked well for you and I can see the potential benefits. Since many reef keepers are land-locked and don't have access to the ocean, aquarists can do a few things that help ensure that the existing strains of bacteria in a healthy reef tank continue to thrive long-term.

I typically don't add new live sand or live rock once a reef system is established. MY LR and most of my LS is around 18 years old now and whatever bacterial strains the material has acquired do their jobs well. In order to keep the bacteria productive, I regularly remove detritus from the system which allows sufficient flow/nutrients to get to the bacteria as well as remove excess organic material from the system. The system gets a weekly 'Storm' treatment with a turkey baster, too, about an hour or so before I vacuum any detritus from the sand bed (advective principle used here to advantage). And equally important, no chemical substances of any kind to eradicate 'XYZ' pests or diseases added to the system as many of these can adversely effect the beneficial bacteria in the system.

[lifeoffaith]

Originally Posted by Subsea

When I set up my first large system, I was working oversea on a 28 day on 28 day off work schedule. My display tank at 150G sat on a cabinet that would not allow for a sump or refugium. I used up one side of a two car garage and plumbed in a remote refugium propagation system. The refugiums consisted of two 55G tanks and the propagation troughs consisted of two 4' by 8' by 6" deep plywood tanks. When I was home, I feed heavily with the macro and pod population increasing dramatically. When I was gone for 28 days, the refugiums feed the tanks. I had no automatic feeders except for complex food webs that provided nutrient recycling.

PS. Interesting signature. Boredom in mankind may well provide some drive, I don't think it put us on top of the evolutionary ladder. I believe in a Creator that is the author of Intelligent Design. He gave us an inate appetite to strive and grow.

I am subscribing. I am also a believer in natural filtration and love learning more. I believe this is how the Creator planned things, so I should replicate nature as close as I can. I plan on setting up an algae scrubber on my next system, and hope to make it much larger than needed so that I can add a 300 gallon tank to the system down the road. Large amounts of live rock is also very important to me. I wish I could gather sand, inverts, live rock etc from the ocean, but the closest "ocean" is Lake Michigan, so I am dependent on whatever biodiversity I can get from other local hobbyists and various LFS. I try to vary my purchase locations when I can, although I am particularly loyal to one particular store in town because 1. I trust him 2. His prices are best and 3. He has the most variety which I also think is important. He will also order most anything I want if he has a source (he's had a source for most of what I've asked him for). I prefer the use of naturally occuring fish or invertebrates to take care of pests/algae and will pass them on to someone else who needs them upon them completing their task if I can't keep them alive on what my system offers. I hope to have enough tank space that I will be able to soon, even if it means swapping their tanks from time to time.