Oyster Reef Ecosystem Tank

[Chasmodes]

This thread by Krullshards sounds just like what happened in my tank...velvet. Same symptoms and behavior. Perhaps shocking (salinity drop,pH, etc.) them accelerated the disease.

Velvet: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2388424

If I had reacted sooner, when I first noticed the scratching, I might have been able to save them. Once they started swimming for the surface and ignoring food, they were doomed by then. Hypo wouldn't have worked.

Then again, flukes show similar symptoms and are not visible. I couldn't see any parasites on my fish...could have been flukes. Hypo should take care of flukes if they are present.

[McPuff]

I wouldn't rely on hypo to treat flukes if you think that's what they have. Medicate the tank and feed them medicated foods. If you can catch the little guys, do a freshwater dip as well. In general, the medicated foods can't hurt and may be good prevention for other parasites such as worms, etc. (different meds sure, but not difficult to do). Just "thinking out loud."

Originally Posted by Chasmodes

This thread by Krullshards sounds just like what happened in my tank...velvet. Same symptoms and behavior. Perhaps shocking (salinity drop,pH, etc.) them accelerated the disease.

Velvet: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2388424

If I had reacted sooner, when I first noticed the scratching, I might have been able to save them. Once they started swimming for the surface and ignoring food, they were doomed by then. Hypo wouldn't have worked.

Then again, flukes show similar symptoms and are not visible. I couldn't see any parasites on my fish...could have been flukes. Hypo should take care of flukes if they are present.

[Chasmodes]

Thanks McPuff. All of the benthic fish are dead now, the last goby was found dead this morning. The only fish in the 20g high that are alive now are the two mummichogs. I think that I will take your advice trap them, then treat them in a separate container. Meanwhile, this tank will only have Ulva, grass shrimp, and at least one mud crab. I will let the tank go fallow until I get my main tank up, then transfer it all into the main tank. After that, this will be my permanent QT tank. I hate to say it, but the killifish fish really don't interest me, but I owe it to them since I collected them to give them my best efforts.

[Chasmodes]

Michael, McPuff, and Subsea, I just want to say thanks for your support, suggestions and tips while following my thread. They're really helpful and appreciated.

[Michael Hoaster]

My pleasure! RC has made this hobby so much more enjoyable for me. Showing off, sharing triumphs as well as defeats, and learning from each other adds so much to the experience. Fish deaths are embarrassing for all of us, but confessing our mistakes takes much more courage than just bailing on posting. We're here for each other, Brother!

[Chasmodes]

RC needs a like button

[Chasmodes]

The 20g high fish inhabitants are down to the 2 mummichogs, at lease one mud crab, and about a dozen grass shrimp. The SG is currently at 1.012. I plan to drop it back down to 1.008 and keep it there. From that point on, it will be my QT tank prior to introducing fish to the larger tank. If the killifish surive this, then they'll go in the display. If not, then I can also keep the tank fallow since I probably won't collect any more fish until next spring or summer.

The 20g long is doing great, as are the fish. Cyano seems to be dying back a little each day. My dilemma is what to do about this tank in preparation of the larger tank set up, because everything is going into the main tank. I believe in the hypo treatment, but am a little gun shy after what happened with the 20g high. If I do the hypo treatment in this tank, it will be done slow and carefully, watching pH closely too. Right now, I use a floating hydrometer. I also have one with the swinging arm. But, I'm considering purchasing a refractometer...rather, I plan on purchasing one. I won't continue until I do.

It's fascinating watching the fish totally ignore the mud crabs. They sit right next to them, land on them, sit on them, look at them, and the crabs do nothing in response. Once in a while, they'll raise their pincers a bit, but don't pinch, as if to shoo the fish away. More often, the crabs retreat to their hiding spots especially if the fish approach rapidly. The crabs seemed to stick to their hiding spots for longer periods of time.

These fish are still sub-adults or juveniles. They feed from my hand, but at the same time, they're very spooky and always on edge. The blennies move all around the structure, and when they do, they're always tight to the cover. When out in the open, if they're not feeding, then they don't stay there long. But, they don't sit and hide all the time, they're always on the move. Some of them have favorite hiding and perching spots, but they don't seem to be married to them. The blennies are the most assertive species in the tank, not fearing the other fish. They're more spooky about my presence. I kind of like that, because they tend to act normally except for at feeding time.

The gobies tend to hide and stick their heads out often, but aren't shy about being in the open. They can be skittish, but not quite like the blennies. They can be aggressive, and will chase anything away, but they are often chased more by the blennies than they other way around. The blennies sort of see them as a nuisance rather than fear them.

The skilletfish hide the most, but, they move around a lot too, most always attached to a shell or the glass, but sometimes hug the bottom, especially at feeding time.

4 out of the 6 blennies in the tank will take food from my hand. The other two, the smallest, sit on one side of the tank and wait for the current to bring their meals to them. 3 of the 6 skilletfish will take food from my hand, the others hunt food down or hang out near the 2 blennies. The gobies will sometimes take food from my hand, but the other fish chase them away. If they were the only species in there, then all of them would do it. The skilletfish stick to my hand when they feed, but they get territorial, and chase the blennies and gobies away as well as competing skilletfish. The blennies come right back though.

All of the fish mistake my hand for food at times and bite. The blennies tend to peck, but can bite a bit hard. The gobies put a lot of effort into biting and the bite is strong, but their teeth are much smaller, so don't grab much. The skilletfish have larger mouths and stronger jaws, and hence, the stronger bite, especially if they get ahold of a fold of skin. None of the bites hurt, but it is a good way to get to know the capabilities of your fish. I don't recommend testing triggerfish though

[Subsea]

Is your QT for fish or corals? Consider a decorative macro lagoon as a QT.

[Chasmodes]

Originally Posted by Subsea

Is your QT for fish or corals? Consider a decorative macro lagoon as a QT.

Thanks Subsea. I'd love that because it's only fish, no corals in my system. There are some inverts though, crabs, shrimp, worms, bryozoans, etc.

[Chasmodes]

The 20g tank is doing great. All of the fish are growing and seem healthy, and no scratching, thank goodness. They all eat like pigs.

I will shoot another video of the 20g long and post it soon. It is amazing to me how fast these fish grow. Some of the blennies were just a little bit over an inch long when I collected them, and now they're about 2-2.5" long now! All of the fish have grown, but the most growth has been with the blennies.

There are 4 crabs in this tank (2 different species of mud crabs), but I've only seen two of them now and then, both last night. I suspect that the other two are still in there but only come out at night if at all.

The grass shrimp numbers have decreased, at least I think, because I only counted three of them last night. There could be a few hidden in the macroalgae and within the oyster reef cultches though. I suspect that a few of them fell prey to the fish.

The bryozoan colonies have grown some, but not at the rate that they did early on during the life of this tank.

[Michael Hoaster]

Good update! Your fish are heathy and growing. Your local inverts add a nice variety. Nice work! Are you getting a feel for your ecosystem?

Any closer to the big tank?

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by Chasmodes

The 20g tank is doing great. All of the fish are growing and seem healthy, and no scratching, thank goodness. They all eat like pigs.

I will shoot another video of the 20g long and post it soon. It is amazing to me how fast these fish grow. Some of the blennies were just a little bit over an inch long when I collected them, and now they're about 2-2.5" long now! All of the fish have grown, but the most growth has been with the blennies.

There are 4 crabs in this tank (2 different species of mud crabs), but I've only seen two of them now and then, both last night. I suspect that the other two are still in there but only come out at night if at all.

The grass shrimp numbers have decreased, at least I think, because I only counted three of them last night. There could be a few hidden in the macroalgae and within the oyster reef cultches though. I suspect that a few of them fell prey to the fish.

The bryozoan colonies have grown some, but not at the rate that they did early on during the life of this tank.

Are bryozoans common in the cold water of Cheasapeak Bay? I am very interested in the grass shrimp you mention. Is it

https://www.livebrineshrimp.com/ShrimpJanitor.htm

I caught these in both fresh and full strength salt. I think that they may be an idle solution to my outside growout system for live food. They are harvested as far north as Long Island.

[Chasmodes]

Originally Posted by Subsea

Are bryozoans common in the cold water of Cheasapeak Bay? I am very interested in the grass shrimp you mention. Is it

https://www.livebrineshrimp.com/ShrimpJanitor.htm

I caught these in both fresh and full strength salt. I think that they may be an idle solution to my outside growout system for live food. They are harvested as far north as Long Island.

Subsea,

There are about 19 species of bryozoans in the bay, but I'm not sure how many venture up to where we collect with the SG at 1.014-1.016. This colony just appeared about 2 weeks after I set up the tank. The only things that I introduced into the tank were the fish, crabs, shrimp, some macro alga, a couple clumps of widgeon grass, and some empty oyster shells. Two colonies formed in the darker areas of the tank, near the corner on the side glass. They are still growing, albeit a lot slower now.

Most likely the shrimp that I have are the common grass shrimp (Palaemonetes pugio). https://www.chesapeakebay.net/S=0/fi...n_grass_shrimp

[Chasmodes]

Very quick update with the 20g long. One thing that I noticed last night, for the first time in months, a piece of Ulva was floating around the aquarium. Somewhere in the mass of red macro, in the middle, I found a little bit attached and growing. That made me smile, Ulva can survive in this tank. After a closer inspection, I found another piece tucked between the oysters. It isn't a lot, but, it's something, surviving, without me adding a bunch more.

The Ulva in the 20g high tank of death is surviving, a lot of it too, along with three mummichogs, an unknown number of mud crabs (between 1 and 5, because they almost never come out), and about 8 grass shrimp. Oh yeah, I moved the last small mummichog, a male, from the 20g long to the 20g high tank of death, because, he would have been killed anyway by the blennies. I caught them chasing and biting his tail and it was shredded. I suspect the smaller killi was killed the same way. He was eaten by the gobies and blennies, nothing left of him now. The killi that I moved started courting the two females right away. I misidentified one of the females last month as a male because it started courting behavior. Apparently, mummichogs get even more confused about their own sex as I do trying to ID them. They are all doing well, although, I suspect that they are carriers of the disease that killed my other fish (at least one of them was a carrier). I hope the 20g long is OK, so far so good, no signs of disease (scratching, etc.) by any of the fish.

[Chasmodes]

Here are a few videos of the 20g long. Hope you all like them. So these videos show an hideous amount of cyanobacteria. Since I shot them, I've reduced the lights on to about 2-3 hours after I get home for work. Today is the third day. So, it is dark in the tanks for most of the day and night. The result is that most of the cyano has died off. I will continue until it's gone. Hopefully, at that point, the macros and other green algae can get a better foothold. Other than the cyanobacteria, the 20g long is doing well. Water parameters are perfect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI1HEINN6Go&t=8s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKi-G9DkTkM&t=9s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSvHcMHIMAs

[McPuff]

Chasmodes, just nuke that stuff with ChemiClean. It's just so fast and efficient. The blackout CAN work but ChemiClean WILL work and the cyano won't just come back in a couple weeks or month. Nothing else should be harmed in your tank. Just be sure not to overdose or it could have adverse effects on your bacterial population. Trust me. :0)

[Chasmodes]

Thanks McPuff, I appreciate the suggestion and will give it a try. I'm tired of looking at that stuff. I shy away from chemical solutions, but I'm a bit at my wits end.

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by Chasmodes

Thanks McPuff, I appreciate the suggestion and will give it a try. I'm tired of looking at that stuff. I shy away from chemical solutions, but I'm a bit at my wits end.

I think that Chemi Clean is more than a chemical treatment. It is biochemical. I think it is probiotic bacteria but I don’t know. Because I don’t test, I view cynobacteria as my test for excess phosphate.

Howerver, be aware of how cynobacteria gets its food to grow. Through “nitrogen fixation” cynobacteria removes an inert dissolved nitrogen gas molecule from the water column and consumes a nitrate molecule. Randy Holmes Farley discribes an auto feed back look where cynobacteria convert inorganic calcium phosphate into organic phosphate and uptake into biomass.

[Chasmodes]

Thanks Subsea. I suspect the oyster shells contribute to some of the problem and I'll have to deal with it always at some scale. My goal is to minimize it if I can't eradicate it. Another issue is that I'm currently using well water until I get my water changing station and RO/DI up and running. A major step to accomplish this is that I need to run a dedicated electrical line to my basement to run my equipment. Right now, I'm using extension cords on my minimal equipment. Basically, I need to convert my mess of a basement to a full bore fish room.

On another note, I've been toying with the idea of not making my stand into a closed cabinet style stand, simply to reduce workload and time. I might find a way to finish it as is, and keep it open underneath. Right now, it's made of 4x4's, 2x4's and plywood, so I need to explore some finishing options to make it look nice. I guess I could just paint it and then build a facade later if I can't get it to look nice. Why the change? A friend of mine sent me a pic of a cubish reef tank where the stand was open with a large sump underneath, and it looked great. The only difference for me would be that my sump is in another room, and underneath the tank would be an open space. This might wind up being a lot cheaper option for me too. If I go this route, it would free up money so I can buy a CO2 reactor.

First things first though, I need to have an electrician come do some work for me. I have to fund this regardless of what I do with my stand.

[McPuff]

Chasmodes, I think the open frame stand will look nice. Maybe just consider putting a "partial skin" on it to hide all seams from the 2x4s. And if you can router the edges, even better!! It should look really nice.

As for the calcium reactor, you would not regret getting one. It's so much easier than dosing and seems to lead to faster and nicer coral growth. DIY is not very hard at all. This is what I did and it was my first ever Ca Reactor.

Originally Posted by Chasmodes

Thanks Subsea. I suspect the oyster shells contribute to some of the problem and I'll have to deal with it always at some scale. My goal is to minimize it if I can't eradicate it. Another issue is that I'm currently using well water until I get my water changing station and RO/DI up and running. A major step to accomplish this is that I need to run a dedicated electrical line to my basement to run my equipment. Right now, I'm using extension cords on my minimal equipment. Basically, I need to convert my mess of a basement to a full bore fish room.

On another note, I've been toying with the idea of not making my stand into a closed cabinet style stand, simply to reduce workload and time. I might find a way to finish it as is, and keep it open underneath. Right now, it's made of 4x4's, 2x4's and plywood, so I need to explore some finishing options to make it look nice. I guess I could just paint it and then build a facade later if I can't get it to look nice. Why the change? A friend of mine sent me a pic of a cubish reef tank where the stand was open with a large sump underneath, and it looked great. The only difference for me would be that my sump is in another room, and underneath the tank would be an open space. This might wind up being a lot cheaper option for me too. If I go this route, it would free up money so I can buy a CO2 reactor.

First things first though, I need to have an electrician come do some work for me. I have to fund this regardless of what I do with my stand.

[Chasmodes]

Thanks McPuff.

Update:

The 20g long cyano problem has been reduced to a minimal amount by cutting back the lighted period to 3 hours per day, darkness the rest (not total blackout though). The tank looks a lot better. I went collecting on Saturday, and we caught everything except for pipefish and blennies. The water temperature on the Bay was 49 degrees, so those species probably already headed out to deep water. I added a couple colonies of tunicates to the tank along with another attempt at growing Ulva. I also tossed the old red macro algae for some healthier specimens. The old was holding it's own, but the new brought a few amphipods to the tank. I added a couple live razor clams to the 20g high along with some tunicates.

Regarding the tunicates, razor clams, and mussels (a.k.a. sea squirts or sea grapes), I'm hoping that they'll help with the detritus, but I may have to purchase some food for filter feeders to keep the alive long term. Again, this is an experiment. What works well will continue into practice and what doesn't will be a lessoned learned idea left in the past.

As far as the cyano, I still plan to treat for it chemically to get rid of it all together. I need the longer photo periods so the Ulva has a chance to grow. Patches of GHA are growing too, but I don't mind them, they kinda look cool.

Here's a full tank shot video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98ZMIozu7EE&t=3s

A little closer in, focusing on the largest cultch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlzm60aYuCM&t=3s

[Chasmodes]

This video is a close up of one of the tunicate colonies. That's all they do, siphon, blow out waste now and then, and contract when fish touch them. Still, I think they're cool and really enhance the aquascaping, giving more of the appearance of a living oyster reef. I will do whatever I can to keep them alive long term. I will try feeding them over the counter planktonic food for now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFR3BlovIdg

[Michael Hoaster]

Your videos are awesome! Your tanks are looking good too. Good luck with your new inverts. I think tunicates eat really small stuff, like phytoplankton and bacteria. Not sure about the others.

Experimenting with new organisms is smart and potentially adds diversity. If they are compatible with your system, great! If not, move on. I've tried a LOT of different things…

I see you've got some of the black grasilaria. I got that plant as a hitchhiker and it was a cool contrast with the other colors-at first. Two years later and it's trying to overrun my tank. It breaks very easily and spreads everywhere. Then, you end up with hundreds of tiny, black plants, making everything darker and dingier-not a good look. I now wish I had gotten it out before it spread. My two cents.

[Chasmodes]

Thanks Michael. Right now, in my two tanks, it doesn't seem to spread much at all. It doesn't die, but it doesn't grow much. Maybe because my SG is only 1.014? I wonder if it would spread if I raised the SG to NSW? I don't mind the look so much as long as other macros or grasses can grow too. The Ulva grows well in the 20g high. When I tried it in the 20g long before, it died off. So, I tried something different this time, as I placed it directly under the light near the surface to see if it grows. I'm optimistic, because I saw some before this recent collecting trip in there and I thought that it all died off. It made a comeback! The only place that I never checked for it was at the surface, just behind the light. After I saw the piece floating in my tank, then I checked up there, and sure enough, there was a small patch growing in there.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that both macro species are prevalent, along with widgeon grass, in the areas where I've been collecting. So, I don't mind so much if they take hold in the tank. That way, it's a true biotope.

Now, that said, if I ever collect further South or East where the water is saltier, and I have to raise the SG to NSW, then I may have to revisit depending on the plant life in that area. One critter that I'd like to add would be a red beard sponge, once I get NSW. If I succeed at keeping the tunicates alive, then I know that I can keep the sponge alive.

How did you get rid of your black gracilaria?

[Michael Hoaster]

I agree, if it grows locally, it belongs. Or it should at least be considered. It looks good in your tank! I just wanted to share my experience with it. It took a long time for it to get to this point.

I have not gotten rid of it, which is the problem. There are so many little fragments, it's impossible to eradicate.