New EcoTech Radion Diffuser? - Page 2

zooman72 · 01/01/2018, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d2mini

The point of the diffuser is to more evenly mix the colors of the individual LEDs and create a more even spread.
This is not a design flaw, this is the nature of a point light source of individual LEDs. The puck design helps to minimize this effect, but the diffuser will help further. Personally, I don't have an issue with "disco" in my tank. Nothing that I notice. Maybe it's because I hang mine 17" off the water.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoralNerd

Same here i don't use the diffuser either.
I'm 14" from the water to the puck and looks smooth as far as I can see.

I have been saying this for years

- there is no need to have any LED fixture that close to the water so that "disco"/ color separation/ banding becomes an issue! Would you run a metal halide that close? Hanging them higher usually eliminates/ greatly reduces the "issues" so many note, and allows one to access the aquarium that much easier.

I run my Maxspect Razors (with original lenses, not the white reflectors) some 14" over my 40B's and they look great, and even my single XR30 Gen 3 Pro over my SCA 50g "cube" looks fine (using the standard Radion mount and wide lenses) some 8" over the waterline - no "disco" effect at all on any of them...

d2mini · 01/01/2018, 08:10 PM

Only time I notice a disco effect is in pics.
Probably because it freezes time. But when I'm looking at the tank, there is too much water movement to allow my eyes to catch the split second instances of color separation.
All i see is a subtle shimmer.

d2mini · 01/01/2018, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zooman72

I have been saying this for years

- there is no need to have any LED fixture that close to the water so that "disco"/ color separation/ banding becomes an issue! Would you run a metal halide that close? Hanging them higher usually eliminates/ greatly reduces the "issues" so many note, and allows one to access the aquarium that much easier.

Agreed.
I do it mainly to increase the light spread, which has always been a sore point when it comes to LED fixtures. More fixtures and more height have solved that issue for me. At least while my sps colonies are still on the small side.

The problem is, many of the arm style mounts that are produced by the same manufacturers of the light fixtures themselves are too low. Around 10" off the water. But I prefer ceiling hanging anyway.

zooman72 · 01/01/2018, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d2mini

Agreed.
I do it mainly to increase the light spread, which has always been a sore point when it comes to LED fixtures. More fixtures and more height have solved that issue for me. At least while my sps colonies are still on the small side.

The problem is, many of the arm style mounts that are produced by the same manufacturers of the light fixtures themselves are too low. Around 10" off the water. But I prefer ceiling hanging anyway.

Yep, light spread is also greatly improved by increasing height - many LFS have it right as they tend to have their lights quite high above the holding tanks.

The mounting fixture that bugs me the most is the EcoTech RMS - adjustable for width with different attachments, but not for height (and cost too much to not offer anything for height). I think the AI HMS is a better solution as it allows for an increase in height.

I made my own hanging arms with painted conduit for my 40B's to hang the Razors from - not a big fan of ceiling hanging personally...

ca1ore · 01/01/2018, 09:48 PM

I agree, at least for the radions which I have at about 14" above the water. I also use Kessils, though those are quite a bit closer.

Rakie · 01/17/2018, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zooman72

I have been saying this for years

- there is no need to have any LED fixture that close to the water so that "disco"/ color separation/ banding becomes an issue!

I disagree. Having the fixture high won't solve banding alone -- I have a G4, mine are 14" from the water (I helped CoralNerd pick his mounting height) -- Color separation is pretty extreme.

here's my tank with a G4 14" off the top of the water -- Look at the color banding on the sand and rockwork. I would call this extreme.

Banding is significantly more noticeable with less fixtures, more fixtures, more overlapping 'banding', means less visible banding. The more radions you have, the less you'll notice the banding.

But the Diffuser does much more than just help with the disco ball effect.

peder · 01/18/2018, 08:42 AM

Thats why i hate Led’s

Rakie · 01/18/2018, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peder

Thats why i hate Led’s

LED's still produce the best color, and with diffusers becoming more common they match T5 in all respects, except color, in which they beat the snot out of T5.

My ATI fixture is in the closet.

HBtank · 01/18/2018, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zooman72

I have been saying this for years

- there is no need to have any LED fixture that close to the water so that "disco"/ color separation/ banding becomes an issue! Would you run a metal halide that close? Hanging them higher usually eliminates/ greatly reduces the "issues" so many note, and allows one to access the aquarium that much easier.

I run my Maxspect Razors (with original lenses, not the white reflectors) some 14" over my 40B's and they look great, and even my single XR30 Gen 3 Pro over my SCA 50g "cube" looks fine (using the standard Radion mount and wide lenses) some 8" over the waterline - no "disco" effect at all on any of them...

Canopies are common "need" for hanging fixtures at lower heights. I personally think tanks without canopies look terrible or are not practical, hanging lights high is not an option for everyone.

callsign4223 · 01/18/2018, 01:37 PM

My biggest issue with hanging lights higher is them shining in my eyes when I am on the couch. I almost want to create a floating canopy to hide my lights in.

HBtank · 01/18/2018, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by callsign4223

My biggest issue with hanging lights higher is them shining in my eyes when I am on the couch. I almost want to create a floating canopy to hide my lights in.

Exactly, this is the main issue (beyond most fixtures just not being attractive to begin with). Most tanks I see with exposed lights just end up with light bleeding everywhere and everything above the waterline to me is simply a distraction, ugly, and better hidden.

Oh, how I would live some perfect rimless cube, with a simple pendent light hanging above, in a room where no one cares about their eyes being assaulted by light ... but I do not have the cash to design living spaces around aquariums.

callsign4223 · 01/18/2018, 03:13 PM

This would be ideal for me

outy · 01/18/2018, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drtrash

So disco ball effect is good then?

Had it with my MH lights, and I have it with leds. Its normal and I'm used to it,

Kind of like it. My leds are no worse then my MH

Bronx19 · 01/18/2018, 07:30 PM

Disco ball with a metal halide? Sure we're talking about the same thing?

To say the disco effect is not a flaw but the nature of LED is ridiculous. The puck design itself is another issue for spread. Thats the problem with LED, every band aid produces yet another problem.

zooman72 · 01/18/2018, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rakie

I disagree. Having the fixture high won't solve banding alone -- I have a G4, mine are 14" from the water -- Color separation is pretty extreme.

here's my tank with a G4 14" off the top of the water -- Look at the color banding on the sand and rockwork. I would call this extreme.

Banding is significantly more noticeable with less fixtures, more fixtures, more overlapping 'banding', means less visible banding. The more Radions you have, the less you'll notice the banding.

I don't see your example as "extreme", and it may be an artifact of the photography process as noted earlier. Also, how would adding additional Radion fixtures alone reduce "disco" color separation?

Quote:

Originally Posted by HBtank

Canopies are common "need" for hanging fixtures at lower heights. I personally think tanks without canopies look terrible or are not practical, hanging lights high is not an option for everyone.

I am not sure what you are trying to say with your first sentence, and while you may not like the look of an aquarium without a top canopy, I fail to see why one without makes it less practical. I find just the opposite - it is more practical to service the aquarium without one. Also, not all LED fixtures result in light "spill" or "bleed" when elevated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronx19

To say the disco effect is not a flaw but the nature of LED is ridiculous. The puck design itself is another issue for spread. Thats the problem with LED, every band aid produces yet another problem.

Not all LED fixtures produce "disco" (see Kessils for example), and all lights have their pros and cons - to state otherwise is disingenuous. It is a shame that BuildMyLED no longer serves the aquarium hobby, as they had a nice product that addressed several common issues.

Rakie · 01/19/2018, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outy

Had it with my MH lights, and I have it with leds. Its normal and I'm used to it,

Kind of like it. My leds are no worse then my MH

Shimmer and disco ball effect are NOT the same thing. Disco ball is color separation -- As in, seeing different bands of colors flickering.

Disco ball effect happens literally a half dozen times per SECOND. CoralNerd was at my house looking right at it saying "I don't see any disco ball?"

Some people can't see it. Their eyes don't recognize it.

Rakie · 01/19/2018, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zooman72

I don't see your example as "extreme", and it may be an artifact of the photography process as noted earlier. Also, how would adding additional Radion fixtures alone reduce "disco" color separation?

Then well have to agree to disagree. My example is absolutely extreme and it's pretty diluted due to my light being hung so high. I can see it with my naked eye, it's not an artifact.

more pucks = more overlapping colors = less separation. If you can't visualize that concept there's no words which will help you.

Bronx19 · 01/19/2018, 02:57 PM

The XR30 is one of the worst culprits for disco ball. BRS showed it pretty clearly in their review.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA3ZVdPDDH0

22:40.

HBtank · 01/19/2018, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zooman72

I am not sure what you are trying to say with your first sentence, and while you may not like the look of an aquarium without a top canopy, I fail to see why one without makes it less practical. I find just the opposite - it is more practical to service the aquarium without one. Also, not all LED fixtures result in light "spill" or "bleed" when elevated.

They are certainly not practical for me when it comes to keeping fish, in addition to containing/hiding any equipment or the reality of years of aquarium use and creep/spray. Of course the former can be countered with screens, and the latter with maintenance and equipment choices... all of which might be considered impractical for some. For others it may work, for instance the room it is in is critical...

And to be honest, most of these setups I see ARE a combination of screens, equipment, and wear/tear that just make me think...... a canopy would look nice on that.

As for "bleed", I think you misunderstand me, what is visible and annoying to someone sitting on a couch at 3-4' with a light across the room at 6' is not the function of some lens or diffuser. If it is in line of sight, it's a problem, and a physical barrier is the only way cut line of sight. Again, the room it is in is critical. Like I said initially, I would love to have a special room devoted to a perfect rimless tank, but that is not practical either.

Rakie · 01/19/2018, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HBtank

They are certainly not practical for me when it comes to keeping fish, in addition to containing/hiding any equipment or the reality of years of aquarium use and creep/spray. Of course the former can be countered with screens, and the latter with maintenance and equipment choices... all of which might be considered impractical for some. For others it may work, for instance the room it is in is critical...

And to be honest, most of these setups I see ARE a combination of screens, equipment, and wear/tear that just make me think...... a canopy would look nice on that.

As for "bleed", I think you misunderstand me, what is visible and annoying to someone sitting on a couch at 3-4' with a light across the room at 6' is not the function of some lens or diffuser. If it is in line of sight, it's a problem, and a physical barrier is the only way cut line of sight. Again, the room it is in is critical. Like I said initially, I would love to have a special room devoted to a perfect rimless tank, but that is not practical either.

Well said.

Come monday I'm going to be planning a hanging canopy for my Radion. I might even go crazy and consider a 2x24w T5 to put in there as well.

Rakie · 01/19/2018, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoralNerd

Same here i don't use the diffuser either.
I'm 14" from the water to the puck and looks smooth as far as I can see.

**cough** CoralNerd just bought 3 diffusers **cough**

CoralNerd · 01/19/2018, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rakie

**cough** CoralNerd just bought 3 diffusers **cough**

Yep installing tomorrow and lowering my Radions to 10"

Rakie · 01/19/2018, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoralNerd

Yep installing tomorrow and lowering my Radions to 10"

You'll love it. And you won't have to boost intensity at all if you're lowering them that much.

zooman72 · 01/19/2018, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rakie

Then well have to agree to disagree. My example is absolutely extreme and it's pretty diluted due to my light being hung so high. I can see it with my naked eye, it's not an artifact.

more pucks = more overlapping colors = less separation. If you can't visualize that concept there's no words which will help you.

One thing I noticed is that you also appear to have substantial surface agitation, which can also cause greater "disco" effect. I would also agree that one's ability to notice "disco" varies quite a bit, and you appear to be susceptible to it (as noted that your compatriot didn't notice it).

It is widely noted that puck layouts of diodes tend to reduce "disco" compared to widely spread diodes, such as found in the ReefBreeders Photon V2. Not using secondary optics, or using reflectors (ex: Maxspect Razor) has also proven useful, probably because the wider cone of light more readily blends with surrounding brethren. Elevating the pucks would additionally reduce "disco" due to greater blending offered by moving the pucks (and their individual diodes) higher, and allowing the individual light "cones" space to blend. To relate this to the OP thread title, this is where I think the Radion diffuser will prove most useful - offering better color blending (and "softening" the light field) when the fixture cannot be elevated.

I can readily visualize any concept (don't need your assistance, but thanks) - adding pucks without changing the position of the light(s) in relation to the aquarium's surface will not necessarily reduce "disco". Now if putting the pucks closer together, or changing their diode optics is also employed, or reducing surface agitation, etc. is also employed then it is possible, again noting that not every aquarist views the same layout in the same manner.

franchar · 01/24/2018, 03:45 PM

The install info from Ecotech says you will need to increase light by approx 25% to compensate for the addition of the diffuser.
Is that a 25% increase from your current level or is it an additional 25%?
i.e. if at 40%, do I go to 50% (25% of 40 is 10, so 40+10=50) or do I go from 40% to 65% (40=25=65)

01/01/2018, 08:10 PM	#27
d2mini Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 10,344	Only time I notice a disco effect is in pics. Probably because it freezes time. But when I'm looking at the tank, there is too much water movement to allow my eyes to catch the split second instances of color separation. All i see is a subtle shimmer. __________________ -dennis Elos Diamond 120xl \| Elos Stand \| Radion G4 Pros \| GHL Profilux Controller \| LifeReef Skimmer \| LifeReef Sump Photos taken with a Nikon D750 or Leica M.

01/01/2018, 09:48 PM	#30
ca1ore Grizzled & Cynical Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Stamford, CT Posts: 17,319	I agree, at least for the radions which I have at about 14" above the water. I also use Kessils, though those are quite a bit closer. __________________ Simon Got back into the hobby ..... planned to keep it simple ..... yeah, right ..... clearly I need a new plan! Pet peeve: anemones host clowns; clowns do not host anemones! Current Tank Info: 450 Reef; 120 refugium; 60 Frag Tank, 30 Introduction tank; multiple QTs

01/24/2018, 03:45 PM	#50
franchar Registered Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Pocatello, Idaho Posts: 11	? on Increasing Intensity with Radion diffuser The install info from Ecotech says you will need to increase light by approx 25% to compensate for the addition of the diffuser. Is that a 25% increase from your current level or is it an additional 25%? i.e. if at 40%, do I go to 50% (25% of 40 is 10, so 40+10=50) or do I go from 40% to 65% (40=25=65)

01/18/2018, 08:42 AM	#32
peder Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Denmark Posts: 62	Thats why i hate Led’s

01/18/2018, 01:37 PM	#35
callsign4223 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 348	My biggest issue with hanging lights higher is them shining in my eyes when I am on the couch. I almost want to create a floating canopy to hide my lights in.

01/18/2018, 03:13 PM	#37
callsign4223 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 348	This would be ideal for me

01/18/2018, 07:30 PM	#39
Bronx19 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 223	Disco ball with a metal halide? Sure we're talking about the same thing? To say the disco effect is not a flaw but the nature of LED is ridiculous. The puck design itself is another issue for spread. Thats the problem with LED, every band aid produces yet another problem.

01/19/2018, 02:57 PM	#43
Bronx19 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 223	The XR30 is one of the worst culprits for disco ball. BRS showed it pretty clearly in their review. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA3ZVdPDDH0 22:40.