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Unread 07/13/2011, 05:14 PM   #26
BlueCorn
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I think the retro-fit is awesome, but when I had my streams in my 180, it was the flow I could see, not the numbers on the box that sold me.


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Unread 07/13/2011, 05:42 PM   #27
wicked reefer
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Why couldnt you just see how long it takes to fill a 55 gallon barrel, or 100 gallon tank, whatever, and then do a little math? I could have come up with more accurate numbers in my kitchen in about 10 min.


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Unread 07/13/2011, 05:43 PM   #28
Macca_75
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flow pumps don't work the same as return pumps.


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Unread 07/13/2011, 05:44 PM   #29
dzhuo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beerguy View Post
I think the retro-fit is awesome, but when I had my streams in my 180, it was the flow I could see, not the numbers on the box that sold me.
I am glad that Tunze is fully commit to the fix and acknowledges there is room for improvement instead of going in a denial mode. This is the primary reason why I always choose to support Tunze and its products.

If nothing else, the fix will help future users to do planning more accordingly. I am looking forward to the fix and fully expect my existing 6105 will even be better in 6 months.


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Unread 07/13/2011, 05:51 PM   #30
chadfarmer
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its good to see tunze step up to the plate and a little more flow would be nice maybe 1 less pump in the old tank


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Unread 07/13/2011, 07:13 PM   #31
derek4real
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If the newer Stream 2 models are off, is it possible that the older style Streams are off too?

I am waiting for my older streams to kick the bucket so I can upgrade to the Stream 2 models.

Thanks in advance.


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Unread 07/13/2011, 07:41 PM   #32
wicked reefer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca_75 View Post
flow pumps don't work the same as return pumps.
I know that, but a test jig could be made, especially in a lab setting.


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Unread 07/13/2011, 08:05 PM   #33
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I would just retro fit a vortec in my tank


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Unread 07/13/2011, 08:07 PM   #34
Macca_75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAZAMA View Post
I would just retro fit a vortec in my tank
1 step forward, 2 steps backwards


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Unread 07/13/2011, 08:21 PM   #35
James77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAZAMA View Post
I do truly feel bad for you guys about the bad press, as this may be detrimental to your success, and I never want to see any company in this hobby fail,
How are they failing when they have already came out and siad they are going to correct the problem and make sure customers are taken care of? It will not be detrimental to their success in any way....if anything, it will show they fully stand behind what they sell and their claims as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAZAMA View Post
I estimated fuel rating of 30mpg and you only received 15mpgs? you wouldn't want the company to say "well we estimated wrong" right! one thing in this hobby seems to always hold true "you get what you pay for"
The car i own had estimated 30, and I get 20 if I am lucky...but I still enjoy the car. Don't you think that analogy would make more sense to this situation if the car manufacturer were to come around and add a more effcient engine in it?

Yes you do get what you pay for. I paid for Tunzes because of their flow, reliability, silence, and customer service. The flow was estimated wrong, but they stand behind what they sell. Tunze is a great company with arguably the best customer service in this hobby, here in America at least. So what is your point? The company has ackowledged the problem, and instead of denying it or saying tough crap, they are going to make good on it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SAZAMA View Post
I would just retro fit a vortec in my tank
Is your only purpose in this thread to attack tunze as a vortech fan? Because it accomplishes nothing. Even if these Tunzes were 1/10th the flow advertised, the pros of them over the Vortech still make it far more favorable to me. Besides, they are going to address the problem. Vortech has had problems in the past, and they addressed them as well. Things happen, what makes a company great is what they do to correct it.


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Unread 07/13/2011, 08:53 PM   #36
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Things happen, what makes a company great is what they do to correct it.
This is the bottom line. Every company screws up at some point. How they correct the issue tells me more about the company than the screw up itself.


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Unread 07/13/2011, 08:57 PM   #37
ghstrider
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Roger, I have a pair of 6105s as you know. Is Tunze going to send out the retrofits or do we have to order them? Is Tunze going to charge for the retrofits?

And regardless of how much flow it puts out, I am a very happy Tunze customer and am confident Tunze will go above and beyond to make this right.


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Unread 07/13/2011, 10:13 PM   #38
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I know i am out of my depth here, but I have one suggestion when it comes to propellors...have your counterparts in Germany contact Ernest Zavarsky. He is the owner of MHZ Modelbau, one of the preeminent manufacturers of German model poweboats and engines. I've been into radio control model boats for many years. There are things that the top racers do to the props that we use to make each prop perform to it's maximum potential. I know this sounds crazy, but I'm not talking about toy boats from toys r us. I'm talking about gas powered boats costing thousands of dollars that run in excess of 70-80mph, no exaggeration. The serious racers know so much about tweaking props that I'm sure someone would be able to offer insight to the design of your props. For example, if you simply round the tips of each blade, you will direct more prop thrust straight back; pointed tips let more water escape off the tip, instead of straight back. There are dozens of shapes, tweaks, bends and cuts that can be made to a prop blade to acheive a desired result. It may very well be worth the effort to speak to someone that knows high speed model boat props in order to come up with a more effective design. I'm quote sure that tunze has some talented engineers working on props, but think about it. It's got to be very hard to tell whats going on from one design to another when the prop is stationary and you can't tell how fast it is pushing something. With our models and some simple gps gear and a stop watch a modeler can tell instantly if a tweak to his prop made the boat faster. By seeing the rooster tail you can tell if the thrust is narrow or wide.
Just my $.02...


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Unread 07/14/2011, 08:09 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvitko View Post
Please read the entire release- we are fixing it, there will be a solution, but we need time to find the solution. Within 6 months, we will be at or very near the stated flow.

For that matter, the flow is pretty much all there, we tested fixing the shaft on one end and using no propeller housing at all, the flow goes up 20-35% depending on the model. The issue is restriction of the flow by the housing and not some major defect, it is solvable, but it requires redesigning the propeller housing and some tweaks to the propellers. This really is not a huge catastrophe, it is a set back, it stings, it sucks it happened, but we will come out better for this. Imagine if the flow you had from our pumps which you were already satisfied with increased 25-45%? Before this article, I have not seen one single complaint, not one single post, PM or email that the flow does not seem to be what we say, how many posts are there about how much stronger someones 6105 feels compared to there MP-40 or 6055 compared to an MP-10. I think if you step back and just look at this rationally, even go to a store that may have both running in displays, you will see that gph only is a very small part of the story of flow.
So when you do find the issue, are you going to replace all of the 'defective' units for customers no matter how old free of charge?


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Unread 07/14/2011, 11:38 AM   #40
dahenley
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Everyone keeps asking what they are going to do, when first, tunze needs to decide how to fix the problem. Then they will know what it will take, and can come up with a plan and follow through.

Tunze has a superior customer service, and I doubt they will leave hundreds of thousands of people hanging.

As mentioned,there are no posts about people complaining that their tunze 6X05 pump doesn't put out! But, with the tests, people now want was advertised which is an ok thing to want, but I see a fix, and also have to turn down pumps 50% when they get 50% more flow!! I can see some whirlpool effects intanks in the future ..

Just relax, and wait more then 48 hours for a fix and answer....
They are working on it, and I stand behind that. I have no reason to not trust them.


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Unread 07/14/2011, 11:50 AM   #41
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it sounds like you folks need to make a solidworks model of your pump and propeller mechanism, then perform some flowworks fluid dynamics analysis on it. From what I've read here, it looks like you are having issues modeling your predicted output since your calculations arent accounting for viscous effects of water so there is a lot of drag involved that the model doesnt account for. This would be exascerbated in smaller pumps by the more restrictive shields in perportion to the propeller size and flow.

My suggestion? Hire an engineer very familiar with fluid dynamics and you will have accurate predictions of flow quickly. Furthermore, once a model is made, it is easy to tweak the model, without having to go through costly prototyping, to determine what may help your design.

good luck! I use Tunze in my frag tank and Ecotech in the display, I like them both. I can easily recognize the problem that you are facing. Designing a high flow pump that isnt so high RPM that it will cavitate, that has enough shielding around it that it wont suck in critters, but that has enough output to satisfy a public that always wants more flow. It is tough!

what I see as your largest issue. Ecotech pumps are large but the in-tank footprint is small so they are able to make a LARGE propeller and shield mechanism without it seeming huge in the tank, since the other half is outside. Tunze must try to make a large propeller and shield mechanism with the motor integrated, which results in a larger in-tank presence that likely has detrimental effects on sales. Id suggest looking into a sealed motor where the stator is in the center and the rotor is along the outside with fins mounted directly to it, the entire thing could be shielded and your intake area could be spread all around the motor resulting in less drag and less starving of the pump. I've got some better ideas but without being on your payroll im not giving them up!

good luck!


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Last edited by NeverlosT; 07/14/2011 at 11:57 AM. Reason: spelling
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Unread 07/14/2011, 12:11 PM   #42
rvitko
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We appreciate the feedback, but we have things under control. I head to Germany in the next 2 weeks and will do a lot of work on this. As I said, existing customers will be taken care of, we expect all upgrades to be retrofittable, i.e. just a new prop, or new propeller housing. They may not be free, it is possible at the end the pumps price has to increase a little because it will cost more to build, but any cost would be very minimal and for the most popular model, 6105 we do expect it to be free and very simple.

There are trade offs to every design, I think you may all be surprised when you see more test results, as I initially said, the gph is not the full story and when you get to talking about gph and flow velocity at distance, we have the superior design. 4000 gph you cannot aim, will have less impact than 2200 you can, even where things stand today, and when we get that to our stated numbers you will be very pleasantly surprised, and yes, most will end up running at 50% and wondering what all the fuss was about. I urge you to wait and see, this won't be solved in days, it will take months, I expect in 1-2 months the 6105 solution will be ready, 6205 shortly behind that but 6305 is more intensive and many parts have to be made.


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Unread 07/14/2011, 12:15 PM   #43
dzhuo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvitko View Post
but any cost would be very minimal and for the most popular model, 6105 we do expect it to be free and very simple.
Great! As I mentioned earlier, I fully expect Tunze to commit a fix that satisfy majority of existing and future users. I love how suddenly people are implying that Tunze doesn't know or understand how to make pumps anymore.


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Unread 07/14/2011, 12:52 PM   #44
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looking forward to increasing flow since i just went with a larger tank . you guys have the best customer service and integrity i've ever experienced!


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Unread 07/14/2011, 01:56 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by dzhuo View Post
I love how suddenly people are implying that Tunze doesn't know or understand how to make pumps anymore.
I agree, funny stuff. Tunze has been building pumps a lot longer than most people have been in the hobby and is probably the most trusted and respected source of high quality powerheads. Some mistakes were made, it happens. I would personally be surprised if Tunze didn't come out of this shining given their history of customer service.

The title of that article might as well have been "If you love your Tunzes now... just wait!"


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Unread 07/14/2011, 02:34 PM   #46
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Wow.
I'd love to run my 6105 next to my mp40 just to see the difference again. Unfortunately that would require me to order more parts for the vortech.

I can assure anyone that the flow produced inside an old shoe box is far below the max flow stated by Ecotech.

I'm really looking forward to the improvements to come on this one.
Thanks for keeping us up to date Roger.


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Unread 07/14/2011, 03:00 PM   #47
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Does all of this poopstorm mean the 7096 software update has been shelved?

I'm quite confident Tunze will take care of us. Since my tank is LPS/softy dominant, I may either skip the upgrade, or as Roger suggested run my 6205's at a lower output. Much more flow in my tank might blow my torch off it's skeleton!


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Unread 07/14/2011, 08:53 PM   #48
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to be honest, who is going to run the vortech at its 100% constant full speed all the time.

the flow rate will drop significantly in all modes except the constant speed mode, and you have to tolerate the external motor noise if you like to keep it at full power.


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Unread 07/15/2011, 01:13 AM   #49
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Personally I don't agree with the use of words like "fix" and "defect" when it seems more like a matter of the numbers just being incorrectly calculated. I haven't seen anything that indicates that Tunze knowingly misled customers and it speaks volumes that they are so proactively working to improve their product. Tunze could have easily said "oops, numbers are off, here are the corrected numbers", changed packaging and manuals, and gone about their business.

I'll look forward to any improvements that come along, but if nothing ever changed I would still be just as happy with my Streams. It's very encouraging to know that the design of the Streams still has room for future improvements, and to me that is not a defect.


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Unread 07/15/2011, 04:07 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenfuzed View Post
Personally I don't agree with the use of words like "fix" and "defect" when it seems more like a matter of the numbers just being incorrectly calculated. I haven't seen anything that indicates that Tunze knowingly misled customers and it speaks volumes that they are so proactively working to improve their product. Tunze could have easily said "oops, numbers are off, here are the corrected numbers", changed packaging and manuals, and gone about their business.

I'll look forward to any improvements that come along, but if nothing ever changed I would still be just as happy with my Streams. It's very encouraging to know that the design of the Streams still has room for future improvements, and to me that is not a defect.
I fully disagree with your statement...


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