New project DIY OUTAGE protection

bulabr · 07/18/2018, 08:31 AM

Hi Reefers

I would like to know your opinions about my idea to be prepared for some outage in my tank.

I have available a good car battery 12V, and my intention is to use it to supply energy for two powerheads(OW-25, consume of 23W/h each) in case of outage.

Material

1 NOCO Genius G3500 6V/12V 3.5A UltraSafe Smart Battery Charger
https://www.amazon.com/NOCO-G3500-Ul.../dp/B004LWVEKS

1 Car Battery 12VDC

1 Ampeak 400W Power Inverter DC 12V to 110V AC Car Inverter with 3.1A Dual USB Converter
https://www.amazon.com/Ampeak-400W-P.../dp/B0714B231X

My idea is to put from the wall plug one GENIUS, connected to the battery…and the battery connected to one inverter, and the inverter connected to two powerheads. Today I have these two powerheads connected to one UPS which by my real experience can stand four hours and thirty minutes. Sometimes we can see outages longer than this and I am not feeling comfortable with this time duration. The intention is to use this system 24 hours turned on. The GENIUS can remain safely connected 24/7 as manufacturer and it is for lead-acid and lithium-ion batteries up to 120Ah. I have been told that this charger puts out 3.5 amps, if your load exceeds 3.5 amps the battery will discharge but when the load is taken off it will charge the battery back up to full potential again. This battery charger has an intelligent circuit built into the microprocessor, meaning it will never over charge your battery. The charger maintains the battery at a certain safe state by using diagnostics built into the charger. The secret is to charge the battery first in slow speed. After the initial charge up to 80% the unit will then continue on. just topping off the battery. This is a trickle charge. Using very little electricity.

I believe that this set up will last for more than 24 hours in case of outage.

Cheers

Bulabr

Aquavaj · 07/18/2018, 10:21 AM

It should work. The only problem I see is will the inverter be able to be run day in and day out

mcgyvr · 07/18/2018, 12:12 PM

All those conversions from one AC to DC to AC to DC again all the time simply means crappy efficiency 24/7..
I likely wouldn't implement a system just because of that reason alone..

untico · 07/19/2018, 07:39 AM

How about DC powerheads?

Sent from Untico’s iPhone using Tapatalk

mcgyvr · 07/19/2018, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by untico

How about DC powerheads?

The powerheads he is using are DC..

callsign4223 · 07/19/2018, 08:28 AM

IIRC those are 24 volt pumps. I would get a charger that can charge at 24 volts and put a pair of batteries in series. Then I would cut the wall wart off the cable that runs to the controller and attach it to the battery system. If you do this pay VERY CLOSE attention to the polarity of the output from the wall wart. Check it with a voltmeter first. If you don't feel comfortable doing that then scrap everything I said because if you hook it up backwards you could smoke your controller.

bulabr · 07/19/2018, 09:04 AM

This is a good way Callsign4223 to rid the inverter off, and double the DC power capacity, but is it so bad to use the inverter guys?

callsign4223 · 07/19/2018, 09:50 AM

The problem with using the inverter is conversion losses. Every time you convert power from AC to DC or DC to AC there is a power loss. The conversion from the wall to the battery bank isn't a huge deal because you're using grid power, a theoretically unlimited source. But after the power hits your power bank you are converting it twice, once from DC to AC out of the bank to the inverter and once from AC to DC from the wall wart.

These 2 extra conversions each use up some power. You are basically reducing the run time of the pumps in the event of a power failure AND purchasing extra equipment. This would be different if you were using an AC pump like the korallia, but with native DC pumps it's better to just leave out the inverter and keep the power DC from the battery to the pumps.

d0ughb0y · 07/19/2018, 12:29 PM

my setup using 12-24v DC-DC step up module. also make sure to add a 12v low battery protection module. last thing you want is to drain the battery past the point of no return. If you look at your inverter specs, it will likely run the battery till its 10v before it cuts off. Not really a good idea. I configured mine to cut off at 11.7v. The nice thing with the DC-DC step up, even with the battery at 13.8V full charge and running all the way down to 11.7v, the output is always fixed at exactly 24v. The low bettery protection module will sound a loud alarm when it cuts off the load.

Got the 35ah battery from Harbor Freight using their 25% off coupon for like $54 (can't remember the exact final price). They have 25% coupon during major holidays. I got mine last memorial day. The battery lasted like 5 days running a jebao SW4. It lasts 8hours running the jebao sw4 + DCP5000 return pump.

callsign4223 · 07/19/2018, 12:39 PM

What step up and LVM are you using?

d0ughb0y · 07/19/2018, 01:37 PM

https://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-24V-36V...d/322616453287

https://www.ebay.com/itm/150W-6A-10-...item3af1503d56

I got the 5amp charger from amazon on lightning deal for $17.
The charger has a fan that is noisy when charging. If I set the jebao sw4 to 50%, then the charger can run in trickle mode and no fan noise.

The low voltage module is configurable. You can set it to cut off at 11v if you want the battery to run longer, but no lower than that. There are fancier models with numeric LED display that shows current voltage and displays the cut off voltage during setup. I think they may be more convenient for a few more milliamps worth of power consumption to power the led display.

You can configure this to switch over by adding a relay module that is triggered by the power supply of the pump.
So if pump has power, relay connects to the pump power. If pump power goes off, connection goes to the battery. If I do it this way, then I can run the pump at higher speed without having to deal with the charger fan noise.

d0ughb0y · 07/20/2018, 08:58 AM

harborfreight has 25% off coupon now on their website good through sunday.

If you need an AGM battery, you can get the 35amp hour battery for $52.49+tax with the coupon.

callsign4223 · 07/20/2018, 09:33 AM

That is a darn good price

d0ughb0y · 07/20/2018, 11:04 AM

right. the same battery costs around $10 more on ebay or amazon. not exactly a huge difference, but I like buying local since I can check the battery (with voltmeter), and check the sticker for the manufacture date. The one I got was manufactured like in the last 2 months, so I know it is really brand new and not been sitting on shelf for a long time. Also easy return if needed.

and get the freebie item while you are there.

ecotech and coral box battery backups use I think 10ah or less battery and cost way more.

callsign4223 · 07/20/2018, 12:09 PM

I was planning on just checking out batteries plus. I didn't even realize harbor freight carried batteries.

callsign4223 · 07/20/2018, 12:34 PM

Here is one for you. The maxspect gyre runs at 36v. Would you just run a pair of step ups, one at 24v to power a jebao return pump and one at 36v for the maxpects?

d0ughb0y · 07/20/2018, 12:54 PM

I think that will work.

it will shorten the run time of the backup.
also, if the pump is on backup, that means it will be always on and not be controllable by apex or whatever controller you use without additional circuitry.
the simplest setup is to backup a powerhead that will remain running even if you shutdown everything, say during maintenance/water change.

I think for vectra, the DC supply is always ON, and the pump goes on or off from a control input (like speed control set to 0 to turn off pump).

going back to your original question, yes that will work. You can calculate the run time using the amp-hour capacity and load and it is fairly accurate or close enough.

moondoggy4 · 07/20/2018, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d0ughb0y

my setup using 12-24v DC-DC step up module. also make sure to add a 12v low battery protection module. last thing you want is to drain the battery past the point of no return. If you look at your inverter specs, it will likely run the battery till its 10v before it cuts off. Not really a good idea. I configured mine to cut off at 11.7v. The nice thing with the DC-DC step up, even with the battery at 13.8V full charge and running all the way down to 11.7v, the output is always fixed at exactly 24v. The low bettery protection module will sound a loud alarm when it cuts off the load.

Got the 35ah battery from Harbor Freight using their 25% off coupon for like $54 (can't remember the exact final price). They have 25% coupon during major holidays. I got mine last memorial day. The battery lasted like 5 days running a jebao SW4. It lasts 8hours running the jebao sw4 + DCP5000 return pump.

Will this work with the Tunze safety connector?

d0ughb0y · 07/20/2018, 07:09 PM

I’ve read about tunze safety connector but never understood what it is or how it works. Is it a simple Y cable or does it have circuitry like diodes?

From what I read, you connect one side to a power supply and the other side to a battery and the third to the pump or pump controller. In theory, it should work. I have to know what’s in the cable to definitively tell if it will work.

moondoggy4 · 07/22/2018, 12:35 PM

So does your setup run the pump 24/7 and then when there is a power outage the pump keeps running on the battery without any delay.

PS I am going to Harbor Freight to get the battery and ordering the low voltage warning module. Thanks

d0ughb0y · 07/22/2018, 03:03 PM

That’s right. That keeps it really simple. If I need to turn off the pump, I have to unplug the dc jack to the controller.

07/18/2018, 12:12 PM	#3
mcgyvr Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 20,050	All those conversions from one AC to DC to AC to DC again all the time simply means crappy efficiency 24/7.. I likely wouldn't implement a system just because of that reason alone.. __________________ Who me?

07/19/2018, 07:39 AM	#4
untico Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Riverside, CA Posts: 596	How about DC powerheads? Sent from Untico’s iPhone using Tapatalk __________________ Louis, Pura vida mae Current Tank Info: 300gal Mixed reef, AI 52 HD LED'S /180 gal.Sump-AI 52 w/Refugium , 50gal Skimmer sump, 20gal quarantine tank. No Chiller :>)

07/19/2018, 01:37 PM	#11
d0ughb0y Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: sf bay area Posts: 5,165	https://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-24V-36V...d/322616453287 https://www.ebay.com/itm/150W-6A-10-...item3af1503d56 I got the 5amp charger from amazon on lightning deal for $17. The charger has a fan that is noisy when charging. If I set the jebao sw4 to 50%, then the charger can run in trickle mode and no fan noise. The low voltage module is configurable. You can set it to cut off at 11v if you want the battery to run longer, but no lower than that. There are fancier models with numeric LED display that shows current voltage and displays the cut off voltage during setup. I think they may be more convenient for a few more milliamps worth of power consumption to power the led display. You can configure this to switch over by adding a relay module that is triggered by the power supply of the pump. So if pump has power, relay connects to the pump power. If pump power goes off, connection goes to the battery. If I do it this way, then I can run the pump at higher speed without having to deal with the charger fan noise. Last edited by d0ughb0y; 07/19/2018 at 01:47 PM.

07/18/2018, 10:21 AM	#2
Aquavaj Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 132	It should work. The only problem I see is will the inverter be able to be run day in and day out

07/19/2018, 08:28 AM	#6
callsign4223 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 348	IIRC those are 24 volt pumps. I would get a charger that can charge at 24 volts and put a pair of batteries in series. Then I would cut the wall wart off the cable that runs to the controller and attach it to the battery system. If you do this pay VERY CLOSE attention to the polarity of the output from the wall wart. Check it with a voltmeter first. If you don't feel comfortable doing that then scrap everything I said because if you hook it up backwards you could smoke your controller.

07/19/2018, 09:04 AM	#7
bulabr Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: La Prairie, Quebec, Canada Posts: 86	This is a good way Callsign4223 to rid the inverter off, and double the DC power capacity, but is it so bad to use the inverter guys?

07/19/2018, 09:50 AM	#8
callsign4223 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 348	The problem with using the inverter is conversion losses. Every time you convert power from AC to DC or DC to AC there is a power loss. The conversion from the wall to the battery bank isn't a huge deal because you're using grid power, a theoretically unlimited source. But after the power hits your power bank you are converting it twice, once from DC to AC out of the bank to the inverter and once from AC to DC from the wall wart. These 2 extra conversions each use up some power. You are basically reducing the run time of the pumps in the event of a power failure AND purchasing extra equipment. This would be different if you were using an AC pump like the korallia, but with native DC pumps it's better to just leave out the inverter and keep the power DC from the battery to the pumps.

07/19/2018, 12:29 PM	#9
d0ughb0y Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: sf bay area Posts: 5,165	my setup using 12-24v DC-DC step up module. also make sure to add a 12v low battery protection module. last thing you want is to drain the battery past the point of no return. If you look at your inverter specs, it will likely run the battery till its 10v before it cuts off. Not really a good idea. I configured mine to cut off at 11.7v. The nice thing with the DC-DC step up, even with the battery at 13.8V full charge and running all the way down to 11.7v, the output is always fixed at exactly 24v. The low bettery protection module will sound a loud alarm when it cuts off the load. Got the 35ah battery from Harbor Freight using their 25% off coupon for like $54 (can't remember the exact final price). They have 25% coupon during major holidays. I got mine last memorial day. The battery lasted like 5 days running a jebao SW4. It lasts 8hours running the jebao sw4 + DCP5000 return pump.

07/19/2018, 12:39 PM	#10
callsign4223 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 348	What step up and LVM are you using?

07/20/2018, 08:58 AM	#12
d0ughb0y Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: sf bay area Posts: 5,165	harborfreight has 25% off coupon now on their website good through sunday. If you need an AGM battery, you can get the 35amp hour battery for $52.49+tax with the coupon.

07/20/2018, 09:33 AM	#13
callsign4223 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 348	That is a darn good price

07/20/2018, 11:04 AM	#14
d0ughb0y Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: sf bay area Posts: 5,165	right. the same battery costs around $10 more on ebay or amazon. not exactly a huge difference, but I like buying local since I can check the battery (with voltmeter), and check the sticker for the manufacture date. The one I got was manufactured like in the last 2 months, so I know it is really brand new and not been sitting on shelf for a long time. Also easy return if needed. and get the freebie item while you are there. ecotech and coral box battery backups use I think 10ah or less battery and cost way more.

07/20/2018, 12:09 PM	#15
callsign4223 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 348	I was planning on just checking out batteries plus. I didn't even realize harbor freight carried batteries.

07/20/2018, 12:34 PM	#16
callsign4223 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 348	Here is one for you. The maxspect gyre runs at 36v. Would you just run a pair of step ups, one at 24v to power a jebao return pump and one at 36v for the maxpects?

07/20/2018, 12:54 PM	#17
d0ughb0y Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: sf bay area Posts: 5,165	I think that will work. it will shorten the run time of the backup. also, if the pump is on backup, that means it will be always on and not be controllable by apex or whatever controller you use without additional circuitry. the simplest setup is to backup a powerhead that will remain running even if you shutdown everything, say during maintenance/water change. I think for vectra, the DC supply is always ON, and the pump goes on or off from a control input (like speed control set to 0 to turn off pump). going back to your original question, yes that will work. You can calculate the run time using the amp-hour capacity and load and it is fairly accurate or close enough.

07/20/2018, 07:09 PM	#19
d0ughb0y Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: sf bay area Posts: 5,165	I’ve read about tunze safety connector but never understood what it is or how it works. Is it a simple Y cable or does it have circuitry like diodes? From what I read, you connect one side to a power supply and the other side to a battery and the third to the pump or pump controller. In theory, it should work. I have to know what’s in the cable to definitively tell if it will work.

07/22/2018, 12:35 PM	#20
moondoggy4 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: menifee So cal Posts: 11,042	So does your setup run the pump 24/7 and then when there is a power outage the pump keeps running on the battery without any delay. PS I am going to Harbor Freight to get the battery and ordering the low voltage warning module. Thanks

07/22/2018, 03:03 PM	#21
d0ughb0y Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: sf bay area Posts: 5,165	That’s right. That keeps it really simple. If I need to turn off the pump, I have to unplug the dc jack to the controller.