Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[adeebm]

Originally Posted by uncleof6

I have many examples of this systems set up as designed, as well as examples that have been modified (within limitations of the design.) I simply do not wish to get deeply involved with show and tell. I am not the only one that follows directions, and does not have a need to try to re-invent the wheel. Thousands of these systems built as designed are in use. You don't see them because they do not draw views, hits, likes, oooosss and ahhhhhssss because they work out of the box as promised... some have stepped up and said so, mostly what is seen however, is the desire to change this or that because of this or that... and it don't work because of both this and that...

The reason is real estate inside the tank. I find that to be invalid as it is only several inches at the top of the tank, unusable real estate. Some worry about light loss, but there is plenty of light as the physics of light in a liquid are different than in the atmosphere...(well not exactly) pretty much a lot of do about nothing. Shoving the system into small external boxes, and small internal overflows, simply defeats the efficiency. IT is a complete system. These modifications take the technology backwards. E.G. long flat weirs back to small toothed weirs. For the most part I suspect it is just misunderstanding how it all works together, and why.

The system is fine as designed, and also when "modified within certain limitations" functions as it should. Problems occur, when aesthetics, or convenience overrule the basic design criteria. Hence a 1000 opinions about a system that is very simple and straightforward... and the seemingly unending revisiting of the same mods/problems/solutions time and again...

You know, I'm not really following what you said there Just wanna know if there's any technical reason it won't work.

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by adeebm

You know, I'm not really following what you said there Just wanna know if there's any technical reason it won't work.

"It works..."

[Cam080]

Hi guys,

Does anyone have any plans or measurements for a 5x2x2 using a coast to coast external overflow with BA to sump. Specifically the overflow and BA specs.

I am getting a custom tank built soon and no one in my local area knows what a BA is, whenever I ask all I get is a blank look with a really confused look on their faces and they think I'm insane! Then they just try to sell me an off the shelf tank.

So I really need to give a tank builder plans of exactly what I need so they can build the tank.

Is there anything around that I can use to give my tank builder?

[BlueRoofTang]

Originally Posted by uncleof6

These holes have never been required or even desirable in a BA system that has been setup properly. The issue you address is not a valid issue. Synergy Systems (where the holes idea came from) found it necessary to put holes in because their system would consistently fail, because they did not have sufficient knowledge of how the system works, but went ahead and modified it, to the point that it would no longer work, based on aesthetics, rather than proper function.

It's going to be impossible to get full flow through a pipe with air trapped up in the top of it.

Originally Posted by uncleof6

Your logic is not necessarily flawed, as the first point of failure will be in the 1" pipe, not the 1.5" "manifold" thing. On the other hand, a single point of failure in this system is not wise, and it as not safe to assume the 1.5" pipe will not occlude or be hard to occlude than the 1". There are many reasons a pipe may occlude, and it is a combination of these things that make a single failure point a poor practice.

Which is greater, the odds of a 1.5" blockage or of a 1? blockage?
When the cross sectional area of a 1.5" pipe is more than double that of a 1" pipe, I'm more than doubling the amount of blockage it would take to have a problem. You're counting number of pipes, instead of figuring how much area would have to be blocked. More isn't necessarily better.

Originally Posted by uncleof6

But let's look at the basic functionality of BA's design. Three discreet pipes, each with a unique function. What you actually have is an over-engineered Herbie type setup, because in the end, you only have two discreet pipes, the double top on one is irrelevant. When people tell you it "won't work" they are right: it will not work as a BA system is supposed to, because it is not a BA system, rather a two pipe system, more inline with Herbie... in the context of this thread, a BA has 3 discreet pipes; redundant statements to make it more clear what "It won't work" means...

It has three pipes. I don't know what "discreet pipes" are though. It is based on the principles of a Bean Animal. A copy? No. It DOES work, and it works well.

Originally Posted by uncleof6

The basic safety features of the system rely on each pipe in and of itself being capable of "siphon" mode. Scenario: Siphon plugs. Dry emergency takes flow (which it normally should not.) Water level rises, Dry emergency goes through spasms as air purges, ultimately should achieve "siphon mode," e.g no air in the line. With the system you describe, that is not going to happen. Air will continue to be drawn in through the open channel. The air intake will increase, due to increased water flow down line, and make the system more unstable: more air = less water.

The original post by Bean Animal says:

"The design criteria:

1) Dead Silent
2) Set and Forget
3) Limit Bubbles in Sump
4) Failsafe to Prevent Floods
5) Easy to Clean if Needed"

I have achieved all of these. Testing of my setup has proven it works. It works silently. My intent was never to mimic somebody else, but make something that worked the way *I* wanted it to, and for my needs.

BTW, if you completely closed your siphon line (simulating a 100% blockage), and the open channel took all the flow, it wouldn't keep a siphon for long. If it did, we'd not need a valve in the siphon line to keep it full.

[HarrisMD]

Just checking to see if anyone has experience with a BeanAnimal drain to basement sump with a long horizontal run.

I am shooting for 1400-1500 GPH flow with 12' vertical drop and 27' horizontal. Total of 3-90's (using sweeps) to get from overflow to sump. I am planning on using 1-1/2" pipe, about a 3-4" slope towards the sump on the horizontal section and gate valve at the sump.

Any thoughts or experiences out there with a setup close to this?

Thanks

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by HarrisMD

Just checking to see if anyone has experience with a BeanAnimal drain to basement sump with a long horizontal run.

I am shooting for 1400-1500 GPH flow with 12' vertical drop and 27' horizontal. Total of 3-90's (using sweeps) to get from overflow to sump. I am planning on using 1-1/2" pipe, about a 3-4" slope towards the sump on the horizontal section and gate valve at the sump.

Any thoughts or experiences out there with a setup close to this?

Thanks

If the "horizontal run" is angled down, there is little likelihood that there would be a problem. However, the friction losses in such a long run, will reduce the flow capacity of the drain line significantly.

[acesq]

Originally Posted by HarrisMD

Just checking to see if anyone has experience with a BeanAnimal drain to basement sump with a long horizontal run.



I am shooting for 1400-1500 GPH flow with 12' vertical drop and 27' horizontal. Total of 3-90's (using sweeps) to get from overflow to sump. I am planning on using 1-1/2" pipe, about a 3-4" slope towards the sump on the horizontal section and gate valve at the sump.



Any thoughts or experiences out there with a setup close to this?



Thanks

You can get the flow you want with that setup, but if you can increase the size of the drain pipe to 2", you'll be better off in the long run since biofouling will slow it down a bit over time. I have a 30' horizontal run with 5' of drop. Using 2" drain pipe with 6 sweep els. I have plenty of flow to support 1500 gph +. I run 1300 gph (measured with the apex flow meter) and have the drain valve closed more than 1/4 of the way.

When I first set up my tank I ran 1.5" drain pipe and within a year it was having a hard time keeping up with the return pump. My guess is that it was draining around 1200 gph max.

Your 12' of drop will help substantially and you probably will get away with 1.5" pipe, but I'd go with the 2" for the extra headroom.

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by BlueRoofTang

It's going to be impossible to get full flow through a pipe with air trapped up in the top of it."

I do not recall mentioning anything concerning "full flow" in the discussion of the holes in the top of the siphon. My post stated they are unnecessary for the system to function properly, when the system is constructed properly.

It has three pipes. I don't know what "discreet pipes" are though.

I don't either. Typos cause confusion quite often. The correct spelling is

"discrete"

adjective:

1. apart or detached from others; separate; distinct.
2. consisting of or characterized by distinct or individual parts; discontinuous.

It is based on the principles of a Bean Animal. A copy? No. It DOES work, and it works well.

No, it is not based on the principles of Bean's system that consists of three discrete drain lines. Your system has only two discrete drain lines, therefore the design principle is based on what is termed the Herbie drain system. Despite the fact that the top end of one of the pipes splits in two, the discrete function of those joined pipes cancel each other out, and do not follow the BA design.

The original post by Bean Animal says:

"The design criteria:

1) Dead Silent
2) Set and Forget
3) Limit Bubbles in Sump
4) Failsafe to Prevent Floods
5) Easy to Clean if Needed"

Context. You are using information that is out of context with the nature of my post.

I have achieved all of these. Testing of my setup has proven it works. It works silently. My intent was never to mimic somebody else, but make something that worked the way *I* wanted it to, and for my needs.

That is fine, but indeed you did mimic countless people that have tried this before. However, this thread is dedicated to one system, and one system only. That is the design published by Bean Animal. There are probably at least a 1000 ways to construct a drain system that "work." A claim that this is the only way to build a drain system has never been made. That is not the point. What you built, is related to the Herbie, (only two discrete pipes.) Your "want" was to only run two pipes to the basement, rather than the three pipes required with a BA. OK, fine. But this is not the first time the joining of the standpipes (whether it is all of them or only two of them) has been brought up. Nor is it the first time, it was criticized.

BTW, if you completely closed your siphon line (simulating a 100% blockage), and the open channel took all the flow, it wouldn't keep a siphon for long. If it did, we'd not need a valve in the siphon line to keep it full.

Well first off, if the siphon becomes 100% occluded, the dry emergency takes the flow. If subsequently the dry emergency plugs, the water level rises, and trips the open channel to siphon mode, by occluding the air vent line. At that point the water level would be sufficiently high for the open channel to maintain "siphon" long enough to lower the water level (often pretty quickly due to the head height.) After that, it can only be expected to behave as a Durso that has too much flow in it, because that is exactly what it is.

Again, your system short-circuits the first safety feature, because the dry emergency can only function as an open channel, until water level is high enough to stop the flow of air into both the dry emergency and open channel. It violates the basic safety rule for running siphons: never run a siphon without a dry emergency, exactly in the same way a Herbie with a so called "trickle drain" does. In the end that is all you really have.

As for your dismissal of the single failure point in your system: they said the Titanic could not sink. What were the odds? The engineering was not well thought out enough, and the Titanic is sitting at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean with 1200 souls aboard, 300 pulled from the water the next day. What were the odds of the Challenger exploding shortly after launch, considering the multitude of redundant fail safe/backup systems used?

It is great it works for you; and it is great that it meets your specifications. However, for this thread, it does not meet the specifications; and I have explained why twice now. Bean, myself, and a couple others, have explained it at least a hundred times prior to this. This thread is too assist those wishing to set up a BA system the correct way, and such discussions of system that deviate far from the BA system, only serve to complicate the topic for those that are unfamiliar, and those that know just enough to be "dangerous."

[Cam080]

So i've come up with a rough design for my new build.

Can one of the experts here that has done this before take a quick look and see if it looks OK or if something is wrong with it. I'm open to ideas and improvements. I'd rather get it right the first time as it can be expensive making changes after.

Thanks in advance!

[Cam080]

Sorry for the sideways picture, for some reason it shows up portrait in photobucket but when I post here it ends up sideways!

[Cam080]

Here we go, ill try again!

[Floyd R Turbo]

Photobucket wants you to pay $400/year to be able to hotlink pics here. Use something else, they suck round objects that dangle between a man's legs now.

[Cam080]

Lets try this again! Ill get there eventually.

Any comments on the design would be greatly appreciated!

[BlueRoofTang]

Originally Posted by uncleof6

No, it is not based on the principles of Bean's system that consists of three discrete drain lines. Your system has only two discrete drain lines, therefore the design principle is based on what is termed the Herbie drain system. Despite the fact that the top end of one of the pipes splits in two, the discrete function of those joined pipes cancel each other out, and do not follow the BA design.

It's YOUR opinion of determining what HIS basic principles are. I don't care if you call it a donkey. I really don't care. Please quit embarrassing yourself. Please, go argue with somebody else.

[Cam080]

Anyone have any comments or suggestions on what I have posted above?

[Rx79394]

Originally Posted by Cam080

Anyone have any comments or suggestions on what I have posted above?

From the looks of it, it appears that you plan on having the DT feed into the overflow with a "shortened DT"? A little bit like an infinity edge pool?

If that is the case, that doesn't sound too great. Whilst, the water will get into the external overflow box, what about wandering fish and whatnot? That is a critical function of the weirs on the overflow boxes. Sure, you will get maximum surface skimming, but it would come at that cost.

[pdiehm]

Hey gang, my setup as is, is doing great and working great. I am about to upgrade my sump to one with 1" inlets. I am running 1.5". I could do a 1.5 to 1" reducer, would that impact performance or will I need to redo my drains to all 1"?

[Cam080]

Originally Posted by Rx79394

From the looks of it, it appears that you plan on having the DT feed into the overflow with a "shortened DT"? A little bit like an infinity edge pool?

If that is the case, that doesn't sound too great. Whilst, the water will get into the external overflow box, what about wandering fish and whatnot? That is a critical function of the weirs on the overflow boxes. Sure, you will get maximum surface skimming, but it would come at that cost.

I do plan to put some kind of grill along the entire length to stop wandering fish from getting in the overflow, I just didn't show that. Mainly wanting advise on the overflow dimensions and the like

[Coach Sharp]

Hello everyone....finally got my 275 gallon half-cylinder tank in a few weeks back and have all the plumbing done...complete with the BeanAnimal design.

I can't seem to eliminate the bubbles coming out the 1.5" drain pipes in the sump. All the pipes are submerged 1" in the sump...and I even drilled small holes in the ends of the pipe just below the surface as many have suggested. Plenty of water coming out the pipes....but still lots of bubbles coming out of the full siphon pipe and the open channel pipe in the sump. Have fine-tuned the full siphon line to maintain the water level in the overflow box at about the middle of the down-turned elbows...but still lots of bubbles?

Any ideas? I do see some bubbles in the overflow box....but not sure where those are coming from? Should the 90 elbows be turned at an angle vs. straight down?

Thanks

[Reefus]

Hi everyone!

For the past few years I've been using a MAME overflow on my tank. It looks beautiful and works well but is a major pain to clean. For my next tank I wanted to go with some plumbing with less maintenance and breakable parts and the Bean Animal overflow looked perfect =)

Trouble is, I have no clue what I'm doing. I've started reading the thread but everything is in inches and gallons and a lot of pictures are missing, which makes it even more confusing. My LFS only uses Herbie style overflows and can't advise but is quite curious on how this one will do. I feel a bit bad for not having read the entire thread so if my questions were answered I would also appreciate a link.

Regarding the tank: I attached a Sketchup picture. It will be 130cm x 30cm x 25cm x 1 cm thick, rimless with an internal overflow on the short (30cm) side. I would like to push ~2000 liters per hour through the display with the return on the far side hidden by rock. Regarding the plumbing diameters I though I would stick to the original design with 25 mm (1''). Quite a few people use a 38mm to 25mm adapter for the tubing inside the aquarium, I assume to maximize weir area. I would also go with that.

My questions are:

• How deep (x) and wide (y) does the overflow box need to be on the inside (usable space)?
• Does it work with a distance of 2.5 cm between the top of the overflow box and the top edge of the glass (z)?
• Regarding the three holes that need to be drilled. The 25mm bulkheads need 36mm diameter holes, would the spacing between the holes and between the hole and the edge of the glass plane work out? I read the thread that uncleof6 linked to (somewhere on page 2xx) with regard to hole spacing and according to that it should be fine.
• How far to the holes have to be from the top of the glass (q)?

I hope I didn't forget anything ; )
Cheers
Reefus

[Coach Sharp]

Update. I drilled the air holes in the ends of the drain pipes slightly "above" the water level in the sump...as I read that would be better than having the holes below the surface. The bubbles in the sump did NOT go away. Should the holes be above or below the water surface to release the air bubbles?

I then read where the Open Channel drain should be a 3/4" or so above the Full Siphon....so I cut 3/4" off the end of the Open Channel elbow fitting to raise the opening a bit relative to the opening in the Full Siphon elbow. The bubbles in the sump still did NOT go away.

So....can't figure out where the bubbles are coming from and how to eliminate them....so I can truly get a full siphon going? Any suggestions? No air or water leaks that I can see. The water dropping into the overflow box is causing a few bubbles.....but nothing like what's coming out of the ends of both the Full Siphon and Open Channel pipes in the sump? Just to experiment, I even close the Open Channel drain altogether and full throttled the Full Siphon Gate Valve....but bubbles continued to wage war into the sump?

Regardless, even though I obviously don't have a full siphon going, even at half throttle on the Full Siphon Gate Valve....the system is keeping up with the return pump, the water level in the OverFlow Box stays pretty constant at a little above midpoint of the elbows....and it's all relatively quiet. So does it really matter that I have bubbles coming through the drain pipes in the sump....especially since the sump is on the other side of the wall from the DT?

Thanks again....would appreciate any advice or suggestions any of you may have.

Make it a Blessed Day!

[Clowning_Around]

Originally Posted by Coach Sharp

Update. I drilled the air holes in the ends of the drain pipes slightly "above" the water level in the sump...as I read that would be better than having the holes below the surface. The bubbles in the sump did NOT go away. Should the holes be above or below the water surface to release the air bubbles?

I then read where the Open Channel drain should be a 3/4" or so above the Full Siphon....so I cut 3/4" off the end of the Open Channel elbow fitting to raise the opening a bit relative to the opening in the Full Siphon elbow. The bubbles in the sump still did NOT go away.

So....can't figure out where the bubbles are coming from and how to eliminate them....so I can truly get a full siphon going? Any suggestions? No air or water leaks that I can see. The water dropping into the overflow box is causing a few bubbles.....but nothing like what's coming out of the ends of both the Full Siphon and Open Channel pipes in the sump? Just to experiment, I even close the Open Channel drain altogether and full throttled the Full Siphon Gate Valve....but bubbles continued to wage war into the sump?

Regardless, even though I obviously don't have a full siphon going, even at half throttle on the Full Siphon Gate Valve....the system is keeping up with the return pump, the water level in the OverFlow Box stays pretty constant at a little above midpoint of the elbows....and it's all relatively quiet. So does it really matter that I have bubbles coming through the drain pipes in the sump....especially since the sump is on the other side of the wall from the DT?

Thanks again....would appreciate any advice or suggestions any of you may have.

Make it a Blessed Day!

If you have bubble in the full siphone you have an air leak, check your air line. Are u using tephlon?

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[Coach Sharp]

Yes, I used Teflon tape on the threaded cap that is at the top of the tee. There is no air line on the full siphon, right? No water leaks....so can't imagine where the bubbles are coming from out the other end of the full siphon line? Could something in the open channel drain be causing bubbles in the full siphon drain line...even though they are not "connected" at all? Should the drilled holes at the end of the full siphon pipe in the sump be above or below the water surface level?

I also have bubbles coming out of the open channel line...but I guess that's expected as that does have the air line attached to the cap?

When I got up this morning, the water level in the overflow box was going up & down again....with lots of gurgling noise. So, I guess I do need to solve this problem.

Thanks again

[BlueRoofTang]

The siphon is only in the area ABOVE the valve. You will sometimes just have some air in the line below it because there is air in there. Drilling a hole above water level will just allow it to get more air in there, not let it out.

There really isn't much of a fix to the problem, but if your siphon valve is set properly, you just have to wait and the air will eventually work its way out, because you'll not be allowing any in it. IOW...if air is going in, it has to come out. If air is going out, and none is in, it means less inside. This is one reason people usually run the pipes down INTO their sump water, because it makes sure no air can get UP inside the siphon tube.

[Coach Sharp]

Thanks again guys! Could you explain what you mean by "the siphon is only in the area above the valve? You mean above the gate valve?

Given that I have the tee capped off tightly...and no water leaks.....just can't understand where the bubbles are coming from? Could it just be the pure force of the water flowing into the sump is causing the bubbles in the sump?

Thanks again for your suggestions. I think I'll go back to using the pipes with holes just BELOW the surface vs. above the surface!