Biocube Cycle. Need advice

mickeyfish · 12/12/2017, 08:17 PM

Hi All,

My first post on ReefCentral. Have had a freshwater tank for awhile, and just getting into the Saltwater side of things with a new Biocube 32 LED. I filled the tank on 12/1 with 20lbs or CaribSea Live sand, 30lbs of base rock, a piece of live rock from Petco, and filled with water. I am cycling with Dr. Tim's One and Only and doing a fishless cycle to prep the tank. I have also been dosing with Dr. Tim's Ammonia to feed the bacteria.

The tank is running with the Tunze 9001 skimmer (not skimming much despite being at the right water level, I am assuming because it is new), and the InTank Media basket with floss and Chemi-Pure Elite (no Purigen during the cycle).

My issue is that after 12 days now my ammonia returns to 0 in one day. However, Nitrites are off the chart. Even a diluted test of 1ml tank water and 4ml RO/DI is deep purple. My Nitrates also appear to be 160.

I have done a few 5g water changes, but no impact on the levels. My log is attached. I just completed a water change and need advice as to whether I should dose more ammonia or wait. The level of ammonia is currently at 0. I do not want to make the Nitrite / Nitrate problem worse.

Brown diatoms are also coming in pretty heavy. I want to add a clean up crew but am waiting.

Any advice is welcome.

Thanks!

Abstract3000 · 12/12/2017, 08:21 PM

Sounds like you completed your cycle and rather quickly...

If you can bring your ammonia to 1 ~ 2 ppm and it goes back to 0 in a day, your cycle is done. Nitrates is the end result, a 50% water change is all you need to do and expect diatoms for a week or 2 more. Sounds like your right on track!

mickeyfish · 12/12/2017, 08:36 PM

Thanks Abstract. What about the Nitrite level? I am afraid to add the cleanup crew now because I am concerned that the high levels could kill invertebrates (mainly snails).

Even when I do 1ml tank water and 4ml RO/DI I am getting Nitrite levels that are deep purple and 5ppm plus it appears like.

der_wille_zur_macht · 12/12/2017, 08:38 PM

The presence of nitrite in any detectable level means the cycle is absolutely not done.

You've probably added way too much ammonia at this point. It all basically ends up as nitrate, which is why thst level is so high, and also why you're seeing the heavy diatom growth.

I would suggest stop adding ammonia. Do a few large water changes. Nitrite should slowly decline over a few days and nitrate will continue to rise. The water changes will slowly bring nitrate down. Once it is at an acceptable level, you're all set.

Might pay to test your source water to make sure you aren't introducing nutrients with every water change.

mickeyfish · 12/12/2017, 08:44 PM

Thanks for that. So to date I have dosed 2ppm Ammonia (4 drops per gallon, assuming 25 gallons in the tank with sand and rock displacement) on two occasions, and then scaled it back to .5ppm yesterday, which processed to 0 overnight.

I read on these forums that:
1 ppm ammonia --> 2.7 ppm nitrite --> 3.6 ppm nitrate.

Based on that, I can't understand how the levels are so high.

In any case, I can not add any ammonia this evening and continue with daily 5g water changes until the levels reduce. Do I need to worry about the ammonia processing bacteria starving without any ammonia in the water?

I will also test my source water before changing tomorrow.

JUNBUG361 · 12/12/2017, 10:33 PM

I would stop dosing for a week or 2 & let the cycle do it thing. Then re check parameters. What test kits are you using? Be patient try not to rush

der_wille_zur_macht · 12/13/2017, 07:26 AM

Bacteria won't die off quickly enough to make a difference. If you're really worried I would add a pinch of actual fish food versus ammonia. I know ammonia is popular for cycling but it doesn't really model the natural nutrient load in a stable aquarium.

Also it may be worth verifying your tests against another brand of kit or your lfs. Any time a reading is way out of whack, I suspect the measurement method first before assuming it's actually that far off.

Abstract3000 · 12/13/2017, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mickeyfish

Thanks Abstract. What about the Nitrite level? I am afraid to add the cleanup crew now because I am concerned that the high levels could kill invertebrates (mainly snails).

Even when I do 1ml tank water and 4ml RO/DI I am getting Nitrite levels that are deep purple and 5ppm plus it appears like.

I'm sorry, I thought I was reading "Nitrate", thats correct "Nitrite" is the 2nd process, that needs to go away followed by a huge "Nitrate" Spike.

RobZilla04 · 12/13/2017, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mickeyfish

Thanks for that. So to date I have dosed 2ppm Ammonia (4 drops per gallon, assuming 25 gallons in the tank with sand and rock displacement) on two occasions, and then scaled it back to .5ppm yesterday, which processed to 0 overnight.

I read on these forums that:
1 ppm ammonia --> 2.7 ppm nitrite --> 3.6 ppm nitrate.

Based on that, I can't understand how the levels are so high.

In any case, I can not add any ammonia this evening and continue with daily 5g water changes until the levels reduce. Do I need to worry about the ammonia processing bacteria starving without any ammonia in the water?

I will also test my source water before changing tomorrow.

Go slow. Let the process happen. You're gonna see several stages of ugly (brown, green, dusty brown, then probably green hair algae). At this point just monitor the Nitrite and Nitrate. You can keep up the weekly water changes to help reduce those. Also check Phosphates.

You can add a CUC at this point if you would like but beyond inverts IMO you should hold off.

mickeyfish · 12/13/2017, 08:11 AM

Ok, thanks all for the advice. I am in no rush to add anything else, just wanted to get the CUC in there soon.

So as for dosing, is the consensus to stop dosing ammonia at this point and just wait it out?

nereefpat · 12/13/2017, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mickeyfish

I read on these forums that:
1 ppm ammonia --> 2.7 ppm nitrite --> 3.6 ppm nitrate.

Based on that, I can't understand how the levels are so high.

Presence of nitrite interferes with the nitrate test, making it read artificially high.

And as far as the cycle: as it has been said, just wait longer, and quit adding ammonia.

der_wille_zur_macht · 12/13/2017, 08:23 AM

Yes.

The huge nitrite and nitrate readings are evidence that the system has processed plenty of ammonia to get your initial livestock in there safely. You need to allow for other biological cycles to start kicking in, there's zero point in building more nitrifying bacteria, it'll be excess capacity and you'll be throwing the tank out of balance in a way that can promote nusiance algae and other pests to grow out of proportion.

If you can't tell, I'm not a fan of ammonia dosing. It does get your nitrogen cycle established, but it creates an imbalance of N against other macronutrients. The only life that grows well when things are out of balance are pests. People in this hobby have accepted nusiance algae blooms as part of a new tank cycle, which is unfortunate, because there's absolutely no reason we should have to deal with those types of issues. Starting a tank with balanced nutrient loading and then adding appropriate livestock at the right pace can create a situation where the pests never even show up, or come at such low population levels that they're hardly noticed.

Imagine if you've built a new house and it's time to grade the topsoil and get a lawn going. The approach we take in this hobby is to dump a literal truckload of fertilizer on the topsoil, wait for weeds to show up, and then plant the grass seed. It's no wonder the lawn will look terrible for the first year or two!

mickeyfish · 12/13/2017, 08:26 AM

Ok. Great advice and thank you for this. No more dosing for me. Will wait out the Nitrite drop and then do a significant water change before adding livestock.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

der_wille_zur_macht · 12/13/2017, 08:33 AM

I think you're on track to have a nice system and you're being thoughtful about it - I didn't mean my rant to seem too negative.

You mentioned you have a background in freshwater. Did you do any FW planted tanks? I learned a ton about nutrient management and overall philosophy for reefkeeping when I kept my first planted FW tank 10 or 15 years ago. I really feel like the reef hobby would benefit from some of the things taken for granted with FW planted tanks. For instance, the fact that nutrients are "managed" by planting desirable primary producers (plants) at a really high density. Then the ratios of the nutrients are monitored just as closely as the actual values, because the ratios are what creates an environment favoring the desirable livestock versus the pests. Corals are also primary producers, but we're so afraid of hurting them that we consider nutrients to automatically be bad, and ironically, in our hunt to control nutrients, we unintentionally create imbalanced systems where pests grow better than the desirable livestock.

I'll get off my soapbox now, I promise!

mickeyfish · 12/13/2017, 08:48 AM

Didn't take it as negative as all, just good advice.

Yes, I had a planted tank for a little over a year now but it was a small 20 gallon and I really wanted to upgrade to a reef system. I can definitely see that there are parallels, but I still have a way to go to understand getting the environment just right for the corals I want to keep.

12/12/2017, 08:38 PM	#4
der_wille_zur_macht Team RC Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NY Posts: 17,749	The presence of nitrite in any detectable level means the cycle is absolutely not done. You've probably added way too much ammonia at this point. It all basically ends up as nitrate, which is why thst level is so high, and also why you're seeing the heavy diatom growth. I would suggest stop adding ammonia. Do a few large water changes. Nitrite should slowly decline over a few days and nitrate will continue to rise. The water changes will slowly bring nitrate down. Once it is at an acceptable level, you're all set. Might pay to test your source water to make sure you aren't introducing nutrients with every water change. __________________ Inconveniencing marine life since 1992 "It is my personal belief that reef aquaria should be thriving communities of biodiversity, representative of their wild counterparts, and not merely collections of pretty specimens growing on tidy clean rock shelves covered in purple coralline algae." (Eric Borneman)

12/13/2017, 07:26 AM	#7
der_wille_zur_macht Team RC Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NY Posts: 17,749	Bacteria won't die off quickly enough to make a difference. If you're really worried I would add a pinch of actual fish food versus ammonia. I know ammonia is popular for cycling but it doesn't really model the natural nutrient load in a stable aquarium. Also it may be worth verifying your tests against another brand of kit or your lfs. Any time a reading is way out of whack, I suspect the measurement method first before assuming it's actually that far off. __________________ Inconveniencing marine life since 1992 "It is my personal belief that reef aquaria should be thriving communities of biodiversity, representative of their wild counterparts, and not merely collections of pretty specimens growing on tidy clean rock shelves covered in purple coralline algae." (Eric Borneman)

12/13/2017, 08:23 AM	#12
der_wille_zur_macht Team RC Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NY Posts: 17,749	Yes. The huge nitrite and nitrate readings are evidence that the system has processed plenty of ammonia to get your initial livestock in there safely. You need to allow for other biological cycles to start kicking in, there's zero point in building more nitrifying bacteria, it'll be excess capacity and you'll be throwing the tank out of balance in a way that can promote nusiance algae and other pests to grow out of proportion. If you can't tell, I'm not a fan of ammonia dosing. It does get your nitrogen cycle established, but it creates an imbalance of N against other macronutrients. The only life that grows well when things are out of balance are pests. People in this hobby have accepted nusiance algae blooms as part of a new tank cycle, which is unfortunate, because there's absolutely no reason we should have to deal with those types of issues. Starting a tank with balanced nutrient loading and then adding appropriate livestock at the right pace can create a situation where the pests never even show up, or come at such low population levels that they're hardly noticed. Imagine if you've built a new house and it's time to grade the topsoil and get a lawn going. The approach we take in this hobby is to dump a literal truckload of fertilizer on the topsoil, wait for weeds to show up, and then plant the grass seed. It's no wonder the lawn will look terrible for the first year or two! __________________ Inconveniencing marine life since 1992 "It is my personal belief that reef aquaria should be thriving communities of biodiversity, representative of their wild counterparts, and not merely collections of pretty specimens growing on tidy clean rock shelves covered in purple coralline algae." (Eric Borneman)

12/13/2017, 08:33 AM	#14
der_wille_zur_macht Team RC Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NY Posts: 17,749	I think you're on track to have a nice system and you're being thoughtful about it - I didn't mean my rant to seem too negative. You mentioned you have a background in freshwater. Did you do any FW planted tanks? I learned a ton about nutrient management and overall philosophy for reefkeeping when I kept my first planted FW tank 10 or 15 years ago. I really feel like the reef hobby would benefit from some of the things taken for granted with FW planted tanks. For instance, the fact that nutrients are "managed" by planting desirable primary producers (plants) at a really high density. Then the ratios of the nutrients are monitored just as closely as the actual values, because the ratios are what creates an environment favoring the desirable livestock versus the pests. Corals are also primary producers, but we're so afraid of hurting them that we consider nutrients to automatically be bad, and ironically, in our hunt to control nutrients, we unintentionally create imbalanced systems where pests grow better than the desirable livestock. I'll get off my soapbox now, I promise! __________________ Inconveniencing marine life since 1992 "It is my personal belief that reef aquaria should be thriving communities of biodiversity, representative of their wild counterparts, and not merely collections of pretty specimens growing on tidy clean rock shelves covered in purple coralline algae." (Eric Borneman)

12/12/2017, 08:21 PM	#2
Abstract3000 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 50	Sounds like you completed your cycle and rather quickly... If you can bring your ammonia to 1 ~ 2 ppm and it goes back to 0 in a day, your cycle is done. Nitrates is the end result, a 50% water change is all you need to do and expect diatoms for a week or 2 more. Sounds like your right on track!

12/12/2017, 08:36 PM	#3
mickeyfish Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: New York Posts: 196	Thanks Abstract. What about the Nitrite level? I am afraid to add the cleanup crew now because I am concerned that the high levels could kill invertebrates (mainly snails). Even when I do 1ml tank water and 4ml RO/DI I am getting Nitrite levels that are deep purple and 5ppm plus it appears like.

12/12/2017, 08:44 PM	#5
mickeyfish Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: New York Posts: 196	Thanks for that. So to date I have dosed 2ppm Ammonia (4 drops per gallon, assuming 25 gallons in the tank with sand and rock displacement) on two occasions, and then scaled it back to .5ppm yesterday, which processed to 0 overnight. I read on these forums that: 1 ppm ammonia --> 2.7 ppm nitrite --> 3.6 ppm nitrate. Based on that, I can't understand how the levels are so high. In any case, I can not add any ammonia this evening and continue with daily 5g water changes until the levels reduce. Do I need to worry about the ammonia processing bacteria starving without any ammonia in the water? I will also test my source water before changing tomorrow.

12/12/2017, 10:33 PM	#6
JUNBUG361 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Antioch,CALIFORNIA Posts: 1,091	I would stop dosing for a week or 2 & let the cycle do it thing. Then re check parameters. What test kits are you using? Be patient try not to rush

12/13/2017, 08:11 AM	#10
mickeyfish Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: New York Posts: 196	Ok, thanks all for the advice. I am in no rush to add anything else, just wanted to get the CUC in there soon. So as for dosing, is the consensus to stop dosing ammonia at this point and just wait it out?

12/13/2017, 08:26 AM	#13
mickeyfish Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: New York Posts: 196	Ok. Great advice and thank you for this. No more dosing for me. Will wait out the Nitrite drop and then do a significant water change before adding livestock. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

12/13/2017, 08:48 AM	#15
mickeyfish Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: New York Posts: 196	Didn't take it as negative as all, just good advice. Yes, I had a planted tank for a little over a year now but it was a small 20 gallon and I really wanted to upgrade to a reef system. I can definitely see that there are parallels, but I still have a way to go to understand getting the environment just right for the corals I want to keep.