DIY- "Pins" method of gluing acrylic. - Page 7

FINFISH · 04/04/2005, 07:44 PM

I tried the pin method for the first time with good success. That said, I *did* have some pooling of excess solvent at one end- any recommendations for removing the white haze which has formed where the pool was? I suspect the cool temps in my shop contributed.

melev · 04/04/2005, 08:44 PM

finfish,

To Reef Central

As soon as I see a puddle forming, I quickly wipe it off with a finger. The faster you do that, the less smear you'll end up with.

Zephrant · 04/04/2005, 09:58 PM

High moisture tends to do that too- I either wipe it off with a paper towel fast, or buff it out later.

Zeph

aqua5 · 04/09/2005, 07:07 AM

i read those but i am still confused what the pins are for?are they top hold the 2 pieces in place?it says 1 pin every 6 inches but if you are doing a small sump could you do more?also once the top of the sump is glued on (so it looks like a box) how do you route it so it looks like it has "trim" work on the inside of the sump or a "lip" on it?

do you just put a pin half way inbetween the acrylic?like if it was 1/4" you would put the pin approx 1/8" up?where do you apply the glue?

adrinal · 04/09/2005, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by aqua5
i read those but i am still confused what the pins are for?

The pins hold the two pieces you are joining apart just a tiny bit. That tiny bit is enough for the solvent (Weldon 4 most popular on the boards here) to wick in. This is the same physical property of wicking you would see in wicking sodder into copper pipes.

Quote:

it says 1 pin every 6 inches but if you are doing a small sump could you do more?

You can use as many as you like. I have mine 3-4 inches apart. Of course on a bigger piece you may want to lean toward the 6 inch gap, because it it tough to pull out all the pins in time if you are working alone

I have been with one in each corner and work from there.

Quote:

also once the top of the sump is glued on (so it looks like a box) how do you route it so it looks like it has "trim" work on the inside of the sump or a "lip" on it?

after you route it out with the jig you can come back with a roundover bit.

do you just put a pin half way inbetween the acrylic?like if it was 1/4" you would put the pin approx 1/8" up?where do you apply the glue?

melev · 04/09/2005, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by aqua5
i read those but i am still confused what the pins are for?are they top hold the 2 pieces in place?it says 1 pin every 6 inches but if you are doing a small sump could you do more?also once the top of the sump is glued on (so it looks like a box) how do you route it so it looks like it has "trim" work on the inside of the sump or a "lip" on it?

do you just put a pin half way inbetween the acrylic?like if it was 1/4" you would put the pin approx 1/8" up?where do you apply the glue?

I do not want to appear rude, but did you look at the pictures on Page 1 of this thread? That is exactly why I gave you this link. Those pictures Zephrant put up are worth thousands of words.

And I told you in a PM to look at this page to see how the lip was routed out. I have 3 or 4 images that help you visualize how it was accomplished.

http://www.melevsreef.com/tools.html

It isn't that I don't want to help, but I get a lot of email and PMs on this topic, so I referred you to the information that is available rather than typing it all out yet again.

aquadok · 04/09/2005, 12:27 PM

I have fround that endmills leave a better finish on any type of plastic, that I have cut,(delron,Acrlic,phenolic,PVC slate,plexiglass,oh yah crylon as well.

I f you can take a peice of human hair and split that peice of hair into 30 peices(long wise), that is how fine our cnc machines are. So any imperfection on any surface of the peice you are working on can litteraly be shaved smooth, so smooth it looks better than when you got it.
Then when you are done you would put a solvent that creates a realy realy high shine on the surface of the plastic. In the end, the project would look that much nicer too.(by the way the solvent removes alot of surface scratches as well)

kimoyo · 05/08/2005, 12:33 PM

James or Zeph,
I was wondering. Since you do this professionally, when you guys make sumps or tanks are there bubbles at all. Not big bubbles but very tiny ones. The ones I'm specifically talking about are on the edges of the joint, not inside. If there are, is that a mistake of person doing the sump or tank? Thanks.
Paul

Zephrant · 05/08/2005, 03:18 PM

If everything is perfect- edge, surface, temperature, humidity, air flow, etc... then they come out without any bubbles at all.

The stars don't always align however, so small bubbles can happen.

I don't usually get the ones along the edges- It might be that your edges are not perfect (dull router bit, or sanding the edges?) Maybe the solvent is evaporating too fast, or not enough solvent was used to prevent their occurrence. I am thinking that the extreme edge of the joint is getting dry too fast.

Nothing to worry about though. I tend to use more than enough solvent on the grounds that I'd rather have some ooze out and get a perfect joint, then have not enough solvent action and get a weaker joint.

These are sumps, not the viewing pane of a fighter jet. Go for strength first, always.

Zeph

kimoyo · 05/08/2005, 03:39 PM

Zeph,
Actually I was wondering for show tanks. I've seen a lot of pics of tanks but not the edges of them. There was this one picture of one of Jame's tank and it looked like there where not bubbles but I couldn't be sure. Just wondering if your spending a lot for a custom acrylic tank, should you still expect those little bubbles? Thanks.
Paul

adrinal · 05/09/2005, 01:06 PM

I am having trouble tracking down a "thinner?" to give me a little more than 30 sec work time. I would like to slow down the procces to 1.5-2 minutes.
If anyone has a link to such a product online please post it.

Thanks!

Zephrant · 05/09/2005, 09:57 PM

Paul- I've seen such things in commercial tanks, but I've not seen James' work first hand yet.
I know some companies use Weldon #40 which will not do that, but is not as strong. I prefer the strength.

Zeph

Equalizer · 06/07/2005, 12:38 AM

Thank you for this thread.
By far the best thread ive read in a few years.
Working on my acrylic skills and never got the picture on how the pin method worked. Now I DO.

Thanks

Zephrant · 06/08/2005, 11:48 PM

Sounds great- Post some pictures for us when you can, I like learning from other's work too.

Thanks-

Zeph

adrinal · 06/09/2005, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by adrinal
I am having trouble tracking down a "thinner?" to give me a little more than 30 sec work time. I would like to slow down the procces to 1.5-2 minutes.
If anyone has a link to such a product online please post it.

Thanks!

OK been a month. I think its ok to bump this question again

These 30 sec glue times are killing me. Any links to something that can get me closer to 2min glue times would be nice.

melev · 06/09/2005, 12:30 PM

30 seconds with #3, but at least 60 to 90 seconds with #4.

Btw, have you been using up all your needles? I was thinking about ordering some, unless you'd let me buy some of your excess ones. My preference is the one with the solid metal end (might be .16mm), but I think .20 is the better thickness.

adrinal · 06/09/2005, 01:03 PM

I still have a ton of .18s solid or not I use a box of the .20s and can almost do 2 tanks with that amount. I guess I am using just over 50 pins when I do a top or bottom lol. I have been wanting to get some shorter .20s. I feel when they are so long it can be a pain till I get the shims in there, esp when I am working on a wide tank and it hangs over the edge of my work space

I would be happy to send you some extras or go in on an order again.
PM me your # if you like. I am a bit crunched for time ATM but I could work some time to figure out PiNZ!

melev · 06/10/2005, 06:35 PM

What I did was cut the wires shorter to since they were too long for me as well. This helps when the end gets curly from repeated use and cleaning.

I'll buy some of yours, or do an order with you. I typically use 8 or 10 at a time, and I've been reusing them a lot as you can imagine. So if you want to unload what you aren't going to need or use, let me know. Or if you want to just get more, that is fine with me. PMing now.

Equalizer · 06/10/2005, 07:14 PM

I would also like to get a few of the pins.
LMK

A Reef Scene · 06/11/2005, 07:39 AM

that is some great info

adrinal · 06/11/2005, 11:34 AM

I can't afford to send them to everyone

Here is a link for you though.
http://www.healthpointproducts.com/index.html

There is a 25 buck min. Thats about 8 boxes you need to figure out.

Here is a few things that Melv and I think about the pins so far:

- We both like the accupuncture needles
- We both think the .18 might be a bit thin. But we don't know if the .22 or .25 are too big.
- I felt the 40mm were too long in many cases. I am a slob and I need the tool to complensate for my lack of grace. This next order I will get either 15mm (1/2") or the 30mm needles, max.
- I don't build stuff often, but when I do I make as many tanks as possible. I have enough space to do 4 at a time. I use lots of needles at once

The best method so far is to pull the needles and drop them right into a tupperware. You need to clean the needles off before the next time you use them. They will have solvant residue on them... well, perhaps that would melt again, but I clean them off any how.
-melv prefered the solid handles on the Sharp brand.
-occasionally I whipped out a small .16 to pop a bubble before pulling the pin. But, i found in most cases the bubbles go away anyhow when I drop the sides (pull the pins). There was a few bubbles I regret not popping, but I cant always know when poping it will make it worse or better, so I gave up doing that.

I wish I had got acupuncture needles from the start. I wasted enough money on guitar strings and the smallest guage crud from the hardware stores I could find.

If your going to make any order at all i highly suggest at least one box of .20 Sharp 30mm. I am not sure those are the best, but I guess thats what will work best for most folks. We are still in the experiment phaze.

8 boxes should easly fill out your club with "pins" for the average diyer.

Equalizer · 06/19/2005, 10:16 PM

Im going to try and post a few pics of my DIY cube tank if I can.
If it works ill go into more detail of what I've done so far.
Ive got to reduce the size. Trying to do that right now.

Equalizer · 06/19/2005, 10:31 PM

Here is the back of the tank showing the external overflow and some of the return plumbing.

Equalizer · 06/19/2005, 10:45 PM

Here are the last of what I have so far. One is the tank, second is the sump/fuge, and the last one is the tank stand and fuge.
The tank is 24" cube made with 3/8 acrylic, the sump is 18" cube made out of 1/4" acrylic, and the stand and hood are made out of outdoor sign grade MDO.
Im plumbing my RO/DI unit this week and will have more updates to follow.
Thanks for all the help guys.

adrinal · 06/20/2005, 09:22 AM

FYI I have been recieving some PMs. It seems in all of our governments wisdom, some states prohibit the purchace of these dangerous needles ;p So, do not be supprized if a messege comes up and says, "You need to be a licensed acupuncturist to purchace these WMDs" Or, something to that effect.

04/09/2005, 12:27 PM	#157
aquadok Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Cedar Park, TX Posts: 51	I have fround that endmills leave a better finish on any type of plastic, that I have cut,(delron,Acrlic,phenolic,PVC slate,plexiglass,oh yah crylon as well. I f you can take a peice of human hair and split that peice of hair into 30 peices(long wise), that is how fine our cnc machines are. So any imperfection on any surface of the peice you are working on can litteraly be shaved smooth, so smooth it looks better than when you got it. Then when you are done you would put a solvent that creates a realy realy high shine on the surface of the plastic. In the end, the project would look that much nicer too.(by the way the solvent removes alot of surface scratches as well) __________________ 125g+25g frag tank, 3-250 12k reeflux de mh, Tunze wave box,2 Tunze jetstreams,Euroreef cs6-2, A.R.T's 6'' Kalk Reactor, dual 6.5'' reverse flow CA reactor,1/4 hp chiller Various TUNZE contollers Current Tank Info: 125 gallon with 25 gallon frag tank. 3-250 de mh 3 Reeflux 12k, 4-32 watt osrams, Tunze wave box, 2 Tunze jetstreams, Mag 18 return,A.R.T's Kalk reactor, two brine shrimp/phytoplankton reactors,Dual 6.5'' reverse flow CA reactor

05/08/2005, 12:33 PM	#158
kimoyo Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,513	James or Zeph, I was wondering. Since you do this professionally, when you guys make sumps or tanks are there bubbles at all. Not big bubbles but very tiny ones. The ones I'm specifically talking about are on the edges of the joint, not inside. If there are, is that a mistake of person doing the sump or tank? Thanks. Paul __________________ Paul

06/19/2005, 10:45 PM	#174
Equalizer Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Pittsboro, IN Posts: 423	Here are the last of what I have so far. One is the tank, second is the sump/fuge, and the last one is the tank stand and fuge. The tank is 24" cube made with 3/8 acrylic, the sump is 18" cube made out of 1/4" acrylic, and the stand and hood are made out of outdoor sign grade MDO. Im plumbing my RO/DI unit this week and will have more updates to follow. Thanks for all the help guys. Last edited by Equalizer; 06/19/2005 at 11:17 PM.

04/04/2005, 07:44 PM	#151
FINFISH Premium Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Maine Posts: 358	I tried the pin method for the first time with good success. That said, I did have some pooling of excess solvent at one end- any recommendations for removing the white haze which has formed where the pool was? I suspect the cool temps in my shop contributed.

04/04/2005, 08:44 PM	#152
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	finfish, *To Reef Central* As soon as I see a puddle forming, I quickly wipe it off with a finger. The faster you do that, the less smear you'll end up with.

04/04/2005, 09:58 PM	#153
Zephrant Premium Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 3,234	High moisture tends to do that too- I either wipe it off with a paper towel fast, or buff it out later. Zeph

04/09/2005, 07:07 AM	#154
aqua5 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 638	i read those but i am still confused what the pins are for?are they top hold the 2 pieces in place?it says 1 pin every 6 inches but if you are doing a small sump could you do more?also once the top of the sump is glued on (so it looks like a box) how do you route it so it looks like it has "trim" work on the inside of the sump or a "lip" on it? do you just put a pin half way inbetween the acrylic?like if it was 1/4" you would put the pin approx 1/8" up?where do you apply the glue?

05/08/2005, 03:18 PM	#159
Zephrant Premium Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 3,234	If everything is perfect- edge, surface, temperature, humidity, air flow, etc... then they come out without any bubbles at all. The stars don't always align however, so small bubbles can happen. I don't usually get the ones along the edges- It might be that your edges are not perfect (dull router bit, or sanding the edges?) Maybe the solvent is evaporating too fast, or not enough solvent was used to prevent their occurrence. I am thinking that the extreme edge of the joint is getting dry too fast. Nothing to worry about though. I tend to use more than enough solvent on the grounds that I'd rather have some ooze out and get a perfect joint, then have not enough solvent action and get a weaker joint. These are sumps, not the viewing pane of a fighter jet. Go for strength first, always. Zeph

05/08/2005, 03:39 PM	#160
kimoyo Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,513	Zeph, Actually I was wondering for show tanks. I've seen a lot of pics of tanks but not the edges of them. There was this one picture of one of Jame's tank and it looked like there where not bubbles but I couldn't be sure. Just wondering if your spending a lot for a custom acrylic tank, should you still expect those little bubbles? Thanks. Paul

05/09/2005, 01:06 PM	#161
adrinal Moved On Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 764	I am having trouble tracking down a "thinner?" to give me a little more than 30 sec work time. I would like to slow down the procces to 1.5-2 minutes. If anyone has a link to such a product online please post it. Thanks!

05/09/2005, 09:57 PM	#162
Zephrant Premium Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 3,234	Paul- I've seen such things in commercial tanks, but I've not seen James' work first hand yet. I know some companies use Weldon #40 which will not do that, but is not as strong. I prefer the strength. Zeph

06/07/2005, 12:38 AM	#163
Equalizer Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Pittsboro, IN Posts: 423	Thank you for this thread. By far the best thread ive read in a few years. Working on my acrylic skills and never got the picture on how the pin method worked. Now I DO. Thanks

06/08/2005, 11:48 PM	#164
Zephrant Premium Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 3,234	Sounds great- Post some pictures for us when you can, I like learning from other's work too. Thanks- Zeph

06/09/2005, 12:30 PM	#166
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	30 seconds with #3, but at least 60 to 90 seconds with #4. Btw, have you been using up all your needles? I was thinking about ordering some, unless you'd let me buy some of your excess ones. My preference is the one with the solid metal end (might be .16mm), but I think .20 is the better thickness.

06/09/2005, 01:03 PM	#167
adrinal Moved On Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 764	I still have a ton of .18s solid or not I use a box of the .20s and can almost do 2 tanks with that amount. I guess I am using just over 50 pins when I do a top or bottom lol. I have been wanting to get some shorter .20s. I feel when they are so long it can be a pain till I get the shims in there, esp when I am working on a wide tank and it hangs over the edge of my work space I would be happy to send you some extras or go in on an order again. PM me your # if you like. I am a bit crunched for time ATM but I could work some time to figure out PiNZ!

06/10/2005, 06:35 PM	#168
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	What I did was cut the wires shorter to since they were too long for me as well. This helps when the end gets curly from repeated use and cleaning. I'll buy some of yours, or do an order with you. I typically use 8 or 10 at a time, and I've been reusing them a lot as you can imagine. So if you want to unload what you aren't going to need or use, let me know. Or if you want to just get more, that is fine with me. PMing now.

06/10/2005, 07:14 PM	#169
Equalizer Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Pittsboro, IN Posts: 423	I would also like to get a few of the pins. LMK

06/11/2005, 07:39 AM	#170
A Reef Scene Registered Member. Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montgomery, Illinois Posts: 1,465	that is some great info

06/11/2005, 11:34 AM	#171
adrinal Moved On Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 764	I can't afford to send them to everyone Here is a link for you though. http://www.healthpointproducts.com/index.html There is a 25 buck min. Thats about 8 boxes you need to figure out. Here is a few things that Melv and I think about the pins so far: - We both like the accupuncture needles - We both think the .18 might be a bit thin. But we don't know if the .22 or .25 are too big. - I felt the 40mm were too long in many cases. I am a slob and I need the tool to complensate for my lack of grace. This next order I will get either 15mm (1/2") or the 30mm needles, max. - I don't build stuff often, but when I do I make as many tanks as possible. I have enough space to do 4 at a time. I use lots of needles at once The best method so far is to pull the needles and drop them right into a tupperware. You need to clean the needles off before the next time you use them. They will have solvant residue on them... well, perhaps that would melt again, but I clean them off any how. -melv prefered the solid handles on the Sharp brand. -occasionally I whipped out a small .16 to pop a bubble before pulling the pin. But, i found in most cases the bubbles go away anyhow when I drop the sides (pull the pins). There was a few bubbles I regret not popping, but I cant always know when poping it will make it worse or better, so I gave up doing that. I wish I had got acupuncture needles from the start. I wasted enough money on guitar strings and the smallest guage crud from the hardware stores I could find. If your going to make any order at all i highly suggest at least one box of .20 Sharp 30mm. I am not sure those are the best, but I guess thats what will work best for most folks. We are still in the experiment phaze. 8 boxes should easly fill out your club with "pins" for the average diyer.

06/19/2005, 10:16 PM	#172
Equalizer Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Pittsboro, IN Posts: 423	Im going to try and post a few pics of my DIY cube tank if I can. If it works ill go into more detail of what I've done so far. Ive got to reduce the size. Trying to do that right now.

06/19/2005, 10:31 PM	#173
Equalizer Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Pittsboro, IN Posts: 423	Here is the back of the tank showing the external overflow and some of the return plumbing.

06/20/2005, 09:22 AM	#175
adrinal Moved On Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 764	FYI I have been recieving some PMs. It seems in all of our governments wisdom, some states prohibit the purchace of these dangerous needles ;p So, do not be supprized if a messege comes up and says, "You need to be a licensed acupuncturist to purchace these WMDs" Or, something to that effect.