What you need to know about copper and coral

[bertoni]

If it does die, yes, the copper will be released.

[merkurmaniac]

If I had some wiring above my sump, and it was corroded over time, enough corrosion that the wire was eaten thru, can the copper corrosion products become a problem for the tank if they were to fall into the sump? My guess is yes. Fish clam and corals seemed healthy enough until they were killed by an extended power outage due to a tripped gfci. Gfci tripped because of salt creep build up. I am restarting the tank and wonder if I should take any precautions as if it had been treated with copper. I may acid dip the live rock for phosphate removal, bit what about the sand. I was planning on just washing and reusing. Thanks.

[tmz]

Yes, they can.There is no way to know if enough free copper dropped in and hung around to be a continuing problem. In any case;copper or not , rinsing and reusing sand can be problematic; Personally, I'd just toss it. Wiping he interior of the tank down wit vinegar is a prucent step as well.

[eddiesylas]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

This is the result I referred to earlier in this thread about another meterial removing copper. So GFO might be usefully exporting some copper from our systems.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/2/chemistry

from it:

"GFO (at least the brand tested) has a high affinity for phosphorus and silica and rapidly removes ortho-phosphate and silicates. Copper in the free form is removed, while ferric iron is added, though in a particulate and not soluble form. Zinc, manganese, and cobalt are also removed though concentrations never fell to critical concentrations. It is possible that the testing process reported weakly-chelated metals."

Could there be any benifit to "filtering" newly mixed saltwater through GFO prior to performing a water change? The Cu would be in its "most free" form at this point (prior to being bound to any organics) and in teory be bound more readily to the GFO, correct?

And to take the thought one step further, could two part be dosed through GFO prior to addition? This method could even be more benificial if 2-part addition is one of the major sources for Cu. Does GFO function in these extreme saturations?

[disc1]

Originally Posted by dcampbell

I am a beginner who is just reading up on things before starting. I have read alot of tank start up threads and a lot of people have problems with Cyno bacteria. I have read that one way to deter this is to use Ro/Di water only, to keep the trace metal elements down to a minimum. But I was reading a study by, The Japan Society for Analytical Chemistry. " Chemical Speciation of Trace Metals in Seawater: a Review"
Katsumi HIROSE

that said this:

"The Cu toxicity depends on the species
of marine microorganisms; cyanobacteria are one of the most
sensitive species to Cu toxicity in the laboratory."

so wouldnt a higher trace element of copper actually help prevent cyno bacteria ?

Cyano bacteria are way smarter than you give them credit for. They've already figured this out. 99% or more of the copper in the ocean is bound up in a non-toxic form via some interesting chelating molecules produced by... who else... the cyanobacteria. The cyanobacteria are actively stripping the ocean of toxic forms of copper in order to make it a nice home for themselves. They benefit everyone else in the ocean at the same time.

[bertoni]

I don't think there would be much benefit, but I'm only guessing. I don't see many signs of copper poisoning in normal circumstances, though. Usually, the issue is a brass component added to a system, or something similar.

[tmz]

I think the anion resin in a di would be relatively effective at removing Cu++, free copper ,given it's positive charge. I can't see GFO doing any harm though and it might backstop any PO4 species that get through the resin. Overall I don't think it's necessary as an add on to an ro/di ,though.

[eddiesylas]

Agreed, there would be little to gain by adding GFO to the RO/DI unit. But a canister at the outlet of the Calcium and Alk Dosing pumps? Just brainstorming.

After reading this thread my thoughts are primarily on not introducing free copper into the system. It seems that with food, copper piping, salt and 2-part additive being the sources:
Food: be aware, (limit the amount of lobster being fed) but don't stop feeding.
Copper piping: RO/DI.
Salt: Small, regular water changes.
2-part Dosing: ???? What can be done here especially when dosing is going to be dictated by Ca/Alk depletion not Copper input?
For folks using a Calcium Reactor maybe the GFO could be run on the outlet... I've never owned a reactor, just trying to be inclusive.

Again, just wondering about practical preventative measures.

[tmz]

Some salt mixes contain organics claimed to help insure binding of free metals.

Running gfo anywhere on the system will take some metals out along with PO4 .

Dosing calcium chloride and calcium through a for canister would likely lead to precipitation and/or clogging which could throw alk consistency off which is a significant concern..
Using calcium hydroxide (kalk) for calcium and akalinity ;kalkwassser is self purifying and doesn't add any metals unless you dose the slurry..

[manny532]

Question, if I used a reactor and pump in a fish only tank with copper in it, if I took it out rinsed it thoroughly and let it dry, would I be ok using it in a reef tank?

[bertoni]

I would clean the equipment thoroughly with some vinegar, and be sure to remove any calcium carbonate (white or tannish) deposits. The deposits could release a lot of copper.

[manny532]

Originally Posted by bertoni

I would clean the equipment thoroughly with some vinegar, and be sure to remove any calcium carbonate (white or tannish) deposits. The deposits could release a lot of copper.

So vinegar bath and scrub clean and should be fine?

[bertoni]

Yes, that should do it.

[manny532]

Awesome Thank you!

[bertoni]

You're welcome.

[codydemmel4]

any updates here on copper?

On my last triton test my copper was 7 ppb and I am not sure where it is coming from. I do not run any GFO, no metal corruding in any pumps, etc. I do have a lot of copper piping in my house as my house was built in the 50s but I run a RO/DI. Could some copper still get through the RO/DI?

Other high heavy metals:
Tin (Sn at 4.3)
Copper (Cu at 6.97)
Aluminum (Al 8.5)
Silicon (Si 273)
Lithium (Li 453)

I am just trying to figure out what is affecting my corals. It is causing very very slow stn till they completely die usually. Snails and fish look fine. SPS look great in my tank till about 2-3 weeks then they slowly get stn and look bad. My alk is very very stable at 7.7, I check everyday. Calc is 420, p04 is .02-0.05 and nitrate is between 4-8, salinity is 1.025-1.026. I dose flatworm stop, coral booster and 2 part. TDS was showing 002 but I changed all the filters on my 90 gpd spectrapure and I am also adding another carbon block and another DI canister. Will that help with making sure I am getting all copper out of the tap? My salt is instant ocean.

I was thinking of adding a polyfilter but it sure seems like that will do nothing, if anything could raise my copper level?

[bertoni]

You could try a PolyFilter or CupraSorb. The PolyFilter might increase the copper level if too much of the media is added, but that's probably not that big an issue. I don't trust the Triton testing for trace elements due to problems detected with their results. There's some reading available if you're interested.

[codydemmel4]

Originally Posted by bertoni

You could try a PolyFilter or CupraSorb. The PolyFilter might increase the copper level if too much of the media is added, but that's probably not that big an issue. I don't trust the Triton testing for trace elements due to problems detected with their results. There's some reading available if you're interested.

But I am having tip down STN on my coral which makes me think that the high unwanted heavy metals are definitely doing something to them. especially since the other params are rock stable. It also is a very slow STN once the corals are added to the tank, they will look very very good with great PE for 2 weeks and then thats usually when they slowly start to STN on the tips and then die. The tips become very very brittle and look like theyre being eaten or something.

Better question is, do you think the unwanted corals would cause this very very slow STN, everything I have seen in the past is the tissue falling off like RTN. This is more like something is eating it/chewing it. I am very confused. It ALWAYS starts on the tips

[bertoni]

Maybe something is eating or chewing it. You could look for signs of organisms on the corals, particularly at night. Also, you could be seeing some sort of disease. Trying some CupraSorb is an easy and inexpensive step, though.

[codydemmel4]

Originally Posted by bertoni

Maybe something is eating or chewing it. You could look for signs of organisms on the corals, particularly at night. Also, you could be seeing some sort of disease. Trying some CupraSorb is an easy and inexpensive step, though.

I know it is not a fish or crap eating it so unless its something I cannot see if the naked eye then idk what could be eating/chewing it. just looks like it. What type of disease are you thinking?

[bertoni]

You might want to ask in the SPS forum for more information about predators and diseases. I don't think there's much useful information on what coral diseases we might tend to see, but there's a couple of known predators.

[bertoni]

To Reef Central

Thanks for the link!