SPS Care and nutrient management help and advice?

[afm32607]

Evening, looking for some help in balancing higher nutrients and less algae, I cannot understand how any SPS keeper has +5 ppm N and measurable PO4 and isn't also overrun with algae.

The basic question, and the TL/DR version, I would like to have opinions on is the following:

Is anyone actually successful in keeping algae down while keeping color up? What do you attribute to your success and what can I change to improve my tanks coloration and viability?

Some background:

I have been having problems with either coral coloration or algae for the past few years. However, nutrient levels have never been high (N and P04 have never had a reading on my tank with salifert, red sea, sea chem, hanna checkers store testing etc, I even tried Triton and they came back with the P04 reading of 0.00918612 mg/l. Even when algae was growing like crazy I had no measurable readings.

Even with the algae and color issues, I have gotten fairly successful at keeping sps alive for decent length of time, some coral have had more than 2 years of growth and need to be pruned monthly. I have grown frags of coral from 0.75" to the size of footballs.

What I cannot seem to do is keep the colors vibrant and still keep the algae down. Shortly after buying a coral they tend to wash out, though they still grow they look pastel, outside of actinics they look whitish. Or I have algae growing like crazy that eventually chokes out the coral.

I assume my problem with coloration is low nutrients. But when I decrease nutrient export I get algae.

When I ease up on dosing carbon or slowing the water changes the color comes back, but the algae quickly takes over (last time it lasted about 1 month algae free then it took almost 6 months and probably cancerous reef chemicals to kill it).

There has to be a happy medium. As part of maintenance I would spend 30-60 minutes hand pulling algae from tank, which makes me unable to enjoy it).

As far as CUC to eat algae goes, I have tried hermit crabs and they ALWAYS end up eating snails and ignoring the algae, no matter the species of snail or the species of crab. I have tried emerald crabs, they picked on polyps and then ate snails or fish (once). I have tried larger fish like tangs/rabbit fish and they generally outgrow the tank having to be recaptured, worse than that they tend to prefer the nori and frozen foods and only pick at the algae.

When heavily dosing carbon I find that the coral begin to suffer and some never show good growth. I have tried coral feeding, Red Sea energy A & B, while this was early in my SPS tenure (so wasn't done with perfect regularity) I cannot say it helped at all. I have tried DT's phyto live cultures with no changes in the SPS corals (fan worms loved it). If anyone has a different suggestion for feeding SPS I am willing to give it a shot, currently feed Rods Food twice a week (currently as in this week i started it as a regular thing).

As far as trace elements go, I had triton test my water, they recommended tweaking a few of the major elements (strontium, potassium and magnesium) and indicated minor deficiencies in several trace elements (boron, iron, and some others). I bought the required potions to replace them, did the proper dosing for the duration of the bottles but I saw no positive changes to write home about. I don't want to go back this route, I don't really want to add supplements I can't regularly test for myself and most trace test kits have very poor reliability. Further, it is my belief that more frequent water changes will address this problem.

I have not added amino acids yet, though that should have been covered by the Reef Energy.

Current Plan:

Add more fish, feed more frozen, and add more snails (currently on cerith snails, as they seem the eat the largest variety of algae and algae producers without eating each other, I also plan to couple them with more banded trocus snails, though they only seem to like film algae on the glass) while changing to 10% weekly changes (12 gallons takes like 20 minutes to do).

That said, past experience dictates the more fish the more pollution therefore the better the colors and the more algae which seems like a vicious circle. As a note, I do not believe I have ever had the 'recommended' number of snails or crabs. I buy 10-20 each time I get fish or coral but they never seem to accumulate, many empty shells and long-lived hermits though.

Tank Critters:
Kole Tang
2x occ clowns
1x McCoskers (sp?) flasher wrasse
1x Blood Shirmp
Maybe a few hermits left
Cerith Snails
Banded Trocus Snails
1x Coral Beauty (just added last night, had a ton of aggression from tang, TBD if she remains, currently in acclimation box)

Tank maintenance:
20% water changes every other week;
replace the bulbs on my light yearly;
Use RO/DI (5 stage 90 gpd filter MaxCap Spectrapure);
Dose NOPOX (currently up at 8ml/day);
Skimmer Cup cleaned weekly

Tank Stats
75 gal display
20 gal sump
40 gal frag tank
2x mp 40
800 gph return pump

Alk: 10 dkh - Salifert (dose BRS 2-part via GHL doser)
Ca: 440 - Salifert
Mg: 1365 - Salifert (dose ESV B-Ionic by hand whenever)
Temp: 78
ph: 8.4
SG: 35 ppt

Lighting
6 bulb ati t5 (8 hours for 4x bulbs 3 hrs for 6) with 48" actinic reef bright xho (12 hrs on)
Par ratings are somewhere between 200 on sand to 350 on aquascape top, as measured with Apogee par meter.

Filtration
Reef octopus diablo xs 250 (or 200);
Currently running 2x 11 Oz units of Chemi-Pure blue and one serving of GFO - while typically I do no run any chemical filtration, i recently had a huge algae outbreak that required me to use AlgaeFix to eliminate it, coupled with twice weekly water changes and the aforementioned chemical media it seems to have worked;
Filter socks, changed when they being to overflow (about weekly);

[Tripod1404]

Originally Posted by afm32607

Is anyone actually successful in keeping algae down while keeping color up? What do you attribute to your success and what can I change to improve my tanks coloration and viability?

Yes, with large number of snails, red legged hermit crabs and a fuge.

[Daddi0]

The one animal that made the biggest difference for us with algae was a Sea Hare. Also alk seems a little high for no nitrate/phosphate.
Cheers! Mark

[murphreef]

^ agreed bring alk down closer to 8.

What kind of algae are you talking about??

I had been battling some bryopsis and used Flux RX which got rid of it quickly.... My corals are actually much happier now and more colorful.

[afm32607]

Standard hair algae. The tank had just gotten away with the kids and the renovation. While it looks good now the color is just not there. I was thinking I would have to. I found a ton of calcium on my heaters a few months ago never adjusted. I will try that.

[Piper27]

Lots of mexican turbo snails will control a tank with algae problems well. Once they get it in check you can start playing with nutrient numbers.

[Nanook]

Originally Posted by Piper27

Lots of mexican turbo snails will control a tank with algae problems well. Once they get it in check you can start playing with nutrient numbers.

I’m struggling with dosing and losing SPS, but I guarantee Mexican Turbo snails in proper number will keep your rocks algae free. They primarily graze at night.

[afm32607]

I have an additional issue that I’ve noticed last few weeks. My frag tank, which is plumbed into the main tank and lit by a single xr15 pro gen 4. All the coral are looking pale. It’s the same coral as the display and the same water with heavy flow from an mp10 the only real difference is the light.

I checked the par and it reads about 150 tops. So I figured too little light. To help I lowered the light fixture closer, which got the par up to 200, then I plan to boost the intensity to 100% and all channels full, but read and green. Which gets par to about 350.

That par, the 150 which they grow under now, seems very low, for sps. The coral that are turning white look like they are bleaching, which says too much light, typically, but the main display has a full 100-200 par more for the same coral, 250-350, and the coral show much better coloration. So while I’m moving towards higher light, to get to above 250 par, the coral look like they are getting too much.

Any thoughts?

[pisanoal]

Couple thoughts. I'm definitely no expert but have some experiences similar to yours. I would not assume PAR to be all that comparable between your xr15 and your T5s on your main display. What sensor are you using? Older sensors don't do well with leds especially.

When having paling issues, lowering light has been what has saved my sps, especially when i know im nitrient deficient.

[Pife]

Originally Posted by afm32607

I have an additional issue that I’ve noticed last few weeks. My frag tank, which is plumbed into the main tank and lit by a single xr15 pro gen 4. All the coral are looking pale. It’s the same coral as the display and the same water with heavy flow from an mp10 the only real difference is the light.

I checked the par and it reads about 150 tops. So I figured too little light. To help I lowered the light fixture closer, which got the par up to 200, then I plan to boost the intensity to 100% and all channels full, but read and green. Which gets par to about 350.

That par, the 150 which they grow under now, seems very low, for sps. The coral that are turning white look like they are bleaching, which says too much light, typically, but the main display has a full 100-200 par more for the same coral, 250-350, and the coral show much better coloration. So while I’m moving towards higher light, to get to above 250 par, the coral look like they are getting too much.

Any thoughts?

I bet there is less fish in the frag tank.

[MyMocha]

A lawnmower blenny is always a great algae eater..

[afm32607]

Originally Posted by MyMocha

A lawnmower blenny is always a great algae eater..

I have a Kole tang, in my experience Kole's and Lawnmowers are not good roommates over time.

[afm32607]

Originally Posted by Pife

I bet there is less fish in the frag tank.

There are no fish in the frag tank (though atm there is a temporary Coral Beauty which was being bullied by kole tang). That said, the water is the same as what is in the 75 gallon...so the pollution is necessarily going to be shared...right?

[afm32607]

Originally Posted by pisanoal

Couple thoughts. I'm definitely no expert but have some experiences similar to yours. I would not assume PAR to be all that comparable between your xr15 and your T5s on your main display. What sensor are you using? Older sensors don't do well with leds especially.

When having paling issues, lowering light has been what has saved my sps, especially when i know im nitrient deficient.

First, Apogee is sensor manufacturer, i recognize they have issues with blue part of spectrum, though the main tank has a reef bright xho actinic strip as well as the t5's. Even if the sensor is reading too low, it would have to be on the order of 200% too low before any sort of photoinhibition would typically result.

Second, I have read a lot of sentiment similar to yours that with my symptoms lower light is the solution, it just seems if i go any lower they will starve entirely....

[Pife]

I've found that you have to have fish in the actual tank that the Corals in.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[MyMocha]

I had a kole and a lawnmower together for many many years. Basically until had to break my tank down. Granted, it was a 300 gal softie reef so plenty of nutrients. I never had any issues at all. Both fat and happy and really kept the algae in check.

[afm32607]

Originally Posted by MyMocha

I had a kole and a lawnmower together for many many years. Basically until had to break my tank down. Granted, it was a 300 gal softie reef so plenty of nutrients. I never had any issues at all. Both fat and happy and really kept the algae in check.

It probably has to do with the size, though the two times I had issues, once was with the tang, and once was with the blenny (based on who had what marks...)

[afm32607]

Originally Posted by Pife

I've found that you have to have fish in the actual tank that the Corals in.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

Well, as I said, I have a coral beauty in there now. My plan was to put something in there eventually (but it is only 40 gallons so choices are limited). I guess we will see.

[afm32607]

I just reviewed my lighting schedule:
For Display:
All: (Actinic (Reef Brite) + 6 t5 Bulb) - 15:30-18:30
Dawn-Dusk: (Actinic (Reef Brite) + 4 t5 Bulb) - 12:00-20:00
Actinics Only: 11:00-22:00

For frag tank:
Blues: 10:30-23:00
Full: 14:00-19:00 (As a note, full= 100% blues and UV, 75% whites, 10% red & green)

Any thoughts on that schedule? I was thinking to extend display actinics to 23:00 (so I can view tank after kids go to bed, but shorten the Dawn-Dusk cycle a bit. I also plan to redo the Radion entirely (as it seems I am hurting my corals in that tank).

[MyMocha]

Another thought is to add a a few mollies. They eat algae and produce live food!

[MyMocha]

I'm messing around with my lighting schedule (this tank only up for 3 months). I'm curious to see what thoughts and suggestions you get...

[afm32607]

Yeah, but they are not very attractive, when compared to freshwater fish, also they swim like guppies, erratically.

[pisanoal]

Originally Posted by afm32607

First, Apogee is sensor manufacturer, i recognize they have issues with blue part of spectrum, though the main tank has a reef bright xho actinic strip as well as the t5's. Even if the sensor is reading too low, it would have to be on the order of 200% too low before any sort of photoinhibition would typically result.

Second, I have read a lot of sentiment similar to yours that with my symptoms lower light is the solution, it just seems if i go any lower they will starve entirely....

Sorry, my post did a poor job of communicating what i meant it to. I am not implying only that your par meter is probably reading too low. The main point is that 150 per from leds not the same as 150 par from T5s. So saying its under less par from xr15 does not necessarily mean anything.

Also keep in mind that photoinhibition is not a single data point, but very reliant on other reef conditions (ie. Available nutrients).

The margin for error is quite large when you take in all the factors. If it wasnt, reefing would be easy

I'm not making any steadfast recommendations, just giving some food for thought.

I understand your concern about starving them, i held the same concerns when encountering this issue.

[afm32607]

Originally Posted by pisanoal

Sorry, my post did a poor job of communicating what i meant it to. I am not implying only that your par meter is probably reading too low. The main point is that 150 per from leds not the same as 150 par from T5s. So saying its under less par from xr15 does not necessarily mean anything.

Also keep in mind that photoinhibition is not a single data point, but very reliant on other reef conditions (ie. Available nutrients).

The margin for error is quite large when you take in all the factors. If it wasnt, reefing would be easy

I'm not making any steadfast recommendations, just giving some food for thought.

I understand your concern about starving them, i held the same concerns when encountering this issue.

Thanks for the clarification. I know it is not a perfect science, but one would figure, for comparison sake at least, that the reading on the LEDs would be relevant considering the water conditions are similar.

I think what I will do is lower the max intensity to 60% (which seems to be in the range most people use) and maybe shorten up the time the intensity is highest. Now, however, I am second guessing my display's lighting schedule (which hasn't changed for years, but has created washed out colors).

[afm32607]

Does anyone know of a successful reef tank run with radion pro g4's that post their lighting schedule? Yes, I just want to copy it.