Diet and Water parameters and healthy mantis shrimp.

[Islandoftiki]

I've been doing a lot of wondering as of late about shell rot and water parameters and stability and if there's any correlation.

Does anybody know of any further information about specific water parameter that contribute to or help prevent shell rot?

As has been mentioned, a number of people, myself included have been successfully keeping shell rot prone species in lighted tanks (coincidentally tanks with happy healthy and colorful SPS corals). I wonder how much of that has to do with water parameter stability, or lack of certain things like nitrates and phosphates? We already know nitrates are bad, but are phosphates equally problematic for proper shell calcification? They certainly affect SPS corals. Maybe phosphates are more damaging than we currently imagine?

What about alkalinity, calcium and magnesium? As we all know, keeping stable alkalinity, and calcium levels are paramount to ideal SPS growth and coloration. Does the same hold true to the mantis shrimp's shell?

What about diet? Vitamin supplement, amino acids, Omega 3's, etc. It helps in preventing diseases in fish. Why not inverts? A certain form of copper is included in some freshwater shrimp foods, but it's poisonous in different environmental forms.

Anyhow, I'd like opinions and any truly known facts in this respect.

[Kharn]

Originally Posted by Islandoftiki

I've been doing a lot of wondering as of late about shell rot and water parameters and stability and if there's any correlation.

Does anybody know of any further information about specific water parameter that contribute to or help prevent shell rot?

As has been mentioned, a number of people, myself included have been successfully keeping shell rot prone species in lighted tanks (coincidentally tanks with happy healthy and colorful SPS corals). I wonder how much of that has to do with water parameter stability, or lack of certain things like nitrates and phosphates? We already know nitrates are bad, but are phosphates equally problematic for proper shell calcification? They certainly affect SPS corals. Maybe phosphates are more damaging than we currently imagine?

What about alkalinity, calcium and magnesium? As we all know, keeping stable alkalinity, and calcium levels are paramount to ideal SPS growth and coloration. Does the same hold true to the mantis shrimp's shell?

What about diet? Vitamin supplement, amino acids, Omega 3's, etc. It helps in preventing diseases in fish. Why not inverts? A certain form of copper is included in some freshwater shrimp foods, but it's poisonous in different environmental forms.

Anyhow, I'd like opinions and any truly known facts in this respect.

But I think that is the very problem...we simply do not know enough outside, Light and Water Quality...I remember asking Dr.Caldwell about this specifically 'what constitues good water quality to prevent shell rot?'

If we knew the answer to that we would likely be ontop of the Shell Rot disease...

[TundraGuy]

We know that bright lighting is not a good thing for many of the more sensitive mantis. We also know that some people can keep these more sensitive mantis in high light reef environments as long as water quality is kept with in very high quality standards. Truth is as Kharn has stated we don't have the magic equations yet. But Dr Roy has kept peacocks for years with less then what I would call ideal water standards but lower lighting useing ambeant room lighting for viewing.

I trust Dr Roy's for his years of resurch in the field of resurch is unequalled. He has shown that "shell rot" is not the result of any one type of illness. Instead he relates the infections to a group of nastie "bugs" i.e. looking at affected areas under a microscope he has found different things growing. He has in the past stated that he uses canister filters and large water changes also sometimes implying UV sterilization. His methods are old school but effective for his large volumes of water in his lab. I am always testing the "new best filter" methods and have found that there is no one best way to keep ideal water standards. It all comes down to what type of environment and what level of involvement you as the keeper are prepared to keep. An sps system with ultra high grade nutrient removal has been found to kill many types of soft and lps corals, flip the coin over and keeping a slightly higher nutrient level and suddenly the spa corals wash out and the softy/lps start to thrive.

So what I am getting at is what kind of mantis are you thinking of keeping? I am in the process of keeping a peacock in a 38 gallon nuvo with untra low nutrient levels. As I am confident my peramiters are stable I will be adding low lighting levels and bring them up slowly over then next few months to see if I can maintain my peacock without getting the dreaded "shell rot". But i will stress I have the ability to add UV sterilization or even plumb in a huge skimmer with ozone and a lack of photosynthetic organisms I can simply remove or revert to a lower lighting situation at anytime. I have been playing around in the world of saltwater keeping since 85 and will say the only thing that happens fast is not favorable.

What is your tank keeping background and again what mantis are you trying to keep? Remember mantis have different requirements such as deep mud substrates vs hard coal heads vs live rock rubble.

[Islandoftiki]

Originally Posted by TundraGuy

What is your tank keeping background and again what mantis are you trying to keep? Remember mantis have different requirements such as deep mud substrates vs hard coal heads vs live rock rubble.

Nuvo 30 with a pretty heavy duty filtration system. IM Skimmer, oversized media rack (Carbon, Purigen, Polyfilter and GFO). Tunze ATO (topping off with kalk), BRS Alk dosing pump, Chaeto fuge, Reefkeeper, Maxspect Razor Nano 16k LED. The tank is fairly SPS dominant with some softies and LPS. Anyhow, I keep the water parameters appropriate for happy colorful SPS, and one very healthy 5" female O. Scyllarus. Her shell is visually much healthier than most mantis I've seen up close. This tank should be an excellent platform to help determine the viability of keeping a shell rot prone species in very low nutrient system with reef lighting. Aside from my O. Scyllarus, I've had a G. Ternatensis for about a year and a half in a lighted soft coral tank with no shell rot problems. Prior to that, I had a G. Viridis that obviously wasn't shell rot prone.

Anyhow, after reading some technical papers on other marine crustaceans, there is some available research on diet and water quality in relation to exoskeleton quality and health. I'm wondering if there are some more pieces of the puzzle that we can recommend and put into a cohesive article that might be more useful than the currently fragmented information that is out there.

I have to imagine that phosphates and nitrates could be more of an issue than we really know in terms of overall health. Possibly alkalinity and calcium are important as well. What about magnesium levels?

Stress has to be a contributing factor to the overall health of any marine organism as well. I'd like to explore any additional avenues that might make a mantis feel less stressed and more comfortable in it's environment. Read-made burrows, etc.

It's possible that shell rot isn't 100% avoidable. Kind of like ick on fish. However, with a healthy immune system, strong shell and overall happy mantis, the chances of shell rot setting in might be quite minimal, regardless of lighting.

If anybody has any thoughts on some of the lesser discussed factors, I'd love to hear opinions and thoughts. I'm just thinking out loud here.

[TundraGuy]

Subscribed to follow this thread.

[Islandoftiki]

I was reading this the other night. Might be interesting and possibly relevant. I'm not a scientist, but found much of it very interesting although slightly over my head in areas.

http://www.ag.auburn.edu/~davisda/pu...and_shrimp.pdf

[Islandoftiki]

Say, I just got an interesting though in my head about molting and shell rot because there's been some discussion about both on some other forums.

You know how most crustaceans will molt right after you put them in a new tank? What causes that? Parameter changes? Environmental changes? Say you had a mantis with some shell rot and you were looking to force a molt. Would moving it to a different tank, doing a 100% water change, or rearranging the rockwork help to force a molt?

Betty molted a couple days after her tank was moved to my place. Then she molted again when I set up the new tank and put her in there.

Chuck molted right after I moved him to his current tank, too.

[ArmasCG]

My ciliata molted right after I moved her to a new tank even though she already molted only three weeks before then. I am very curious about why that happens.

[Islandoftiki]

Originally Posted by ArmasCG

My ciliata molted right after I moved her to a new tank even though she already molted only three weeks before then. I am very curious about why that happens.

So, the question is what triggers it? Maybe it could be used to rehabilitate a mantis that has shell rot?

[Kharn]

I'd say this personally...

If you want to try and "generalize" what "level" of water quality you need in order to be "allowed" to use lights on an O.scyllarus tank aim for....

An SPS quality system, even if there are no SPS intended to be kept, its just that to knowledge o.O....SPS do require some pritty stable and good conditions to thrive, if your growing healthy SPS you can keep an O.scyllarus with them because its MY BELIEF that in order for the SPS to be growing in the first place, then you must have high quality water.

And too me that is all......Logic.

[Islandoftiki]

Which makes me wonder if things like alkalinity swings, pH swings and other things like that are important.

I think we tend to focus nitrates a lot, but that might miss some of the other important parameters.

[joyluvsrod2013]

I bought a 32g biocube from a store that was already established. they set up my tank at home handed me my kits said self explanatory (HAHA). Few days later i brought home Shelley she died a month later. My nitrates and nitrites where always high then went down my PH did 5g water changes weekly with no change add purchem no change added a chocolate chip star fish no change so frustrating. Was told to add B supplement then Shelley died( i think by what i read was trying to molt i will admit i kept looking at her in her den with a flashlight(did i kill her by being nosey????). Few days ago i did a 10 gallon water change FINALLY not nitrites but now Alk is high so reduced B in half hope this helps. Want to get another mantis but want my tank right first. any advice would be great!!!!thank you

[nmotz]

Originally Posted by joyluvsrod2013

I bought a 32g biocube from a store that was already established. they set up my tank at home handed me my kits said self explanatory (HAHA). Few days later i brought home Shelley she died a month later. My nitrates and nitrites where always high then went down my PH did 5g water changes weekly with no change add purchem no change added a chocolate chip star fish no change so frustrating. Was told to add B supplement then Shelley died( i think by what i read was trying to molt i will admit i kept looking at her in her den with a flashlight(did i kill her by being nosey????). Few days ago i did a 10 gallon water change FINALLY not nitrites but now Alk is high so reduced B in half hope this helps. Want to get another mantis but want my tank right first. any advice would be great!!!!thank you

In the future you'll probably want to just start a new thread for a topic like this. As for your tank, do you have a skimmer? I'd recommend one if you don't. Otherwise try vinegar dosing or growing macroalgae to reduce nitrates. Water changes can help some but you'll want to try more than that. Best not to bother mantis shrimp while they molt, but I know it's hard not to. I would be certain not to add any supplements to my tank that I didn't fully understand.

Other questions, how much live rock do you have? flow? filters?

[joyluvsrod2013]

Thank you for your reply.
the tank came with two rocks and live bedding not sure how much of each there is.
No skimmer was told i didnt need one.
flow what ever comes with the biocube 32 gallon tank
filters are the biocube filters that lay in the back.

[joyluvsrod2013]

i had a Chiragra mantis

[nmotz]

Originally Posted by joyluvsrod2013

Thank you for your reply.
the tank came with two rocks and live bedding not sure how much of each there is.
No skimmer was told i didnt need one.
flow what ever comes with the biocube 32 gallon tank
filters are the biocube filters that lay in the back.

Skimmers are technically "nice-to-haves" but they are really important if you ever get a Peacock in my opinion. Regarding your mantis, there doesn't seem to be anything out of the ordinary, but if I were you I'd read all you can about tanks on this forum and elsewhere. Keeping everything simple is key. Read all you can, that's definitely what helped me the most!

[joyluvsrod2013]

Thank you. i have found a lot of good information on this site and i do google everything when it comes to the water. Of course i would love to get where i can have my shrimp and introduce some beautiful coral but that is a whole other world seems like but i will go slow and will get there.

[nmotz]

Cool, a mantis shrimp/coral tank is awesome, but it is a lot of work. Learn all you can and be patient and you'll get there eventually.

[Sarah_Katherine]

Can you give me a list of some trusted websites for learning more about Mantis Shrimp, particularly Peacocks?