Borneman surge flapper wont pop?

dingodan87 · 06/17/2019, 08:23 AM

Has anyone used these devices and can help me troubleshoot why the flapper on my flush valve wont fully pop open? The float will only pull it just enough to let the water pass through at the same rate its coming in to the bucket. I do have an s tube on the 1.5" drain line that comes up just above the flapper level. Ive tried various lengths of fishing line attached to my float. If i manualy tug the float up the device works perfect. Its just not popping open with enough force. Im using a typical toilet tank float ball.

Really not interested in a borneman vs carlson vs closed loop vs dc pump vs etc etc debate. Please leave those comments out. Thankyou

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skipm · 06/17/2019, 09:07 AM

Sounds like there isn't enough flotation to break the suction on the flapper, try either moving the point of attachment for the float as far away from the flapper "hinge" as possible or try a bigger float. You could also try finding a lighter float, some of the toilet floats are kinda heavy.

dingodan87 · 06/17/2019, 09:33 AM

Ok thanks ill try that. Another thing ive noticed on other designs is the drain always seems to reduce in size before entering the tank. Is this necessary? Id rather keep mine 1.5" to the tank and have more flow

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EnderG60 · 06/17/2019, 11:37 AM

Youre float has to be able to displace more than that amount of water holding the valve closed.

1.5" pipe has an area of 1.8 in2. So if your surge box is 12" tall thats 21 cubic inches( or 0.1 gallons) of water holding the flapper closed. So that is almost a full pound of weight.

dingodan87 · 06/17/2019, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnderG60

Youre float has to be able to displace more than that amount of water holding the valve closed.

1.5" pipe has an area of 1.8 in2. So if your surge box is 12" tall thats 21 cubic inches( or 0.1 gallons) of water holding the flapper closed. So that is almost a full pound of weight.

It should be dependent on the size of the flapper though not the size of the pipe as it enters the tank. I see what your saying though about total force maybe the fishing line needs to be shorter as well to reduce head pressure? Although Ive read other suggestions to increase the head pressure so that the flapper stays closed longer allowing it to "pop" when it finally releases. The flapper is lifting its just not lifting with enough force to fully pop up. At no point does the water reach the overflow pipe. Hopefully another float will solve my issue

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EnderG60 · 06/17/2019, 12:26 PM

The pop youre talking about wont happen. If a float valve gets fully submerged and has not activated it never will because its buoyancy does not change if its under water or just on it.

All the diagrams I have seen for a Borneman show the float sitting on a stand so the water level can reach the stand height before the float starts floating and opens the valve.

More Head pressure, just means you move the surge bucket higher. That will make the surge faster but it will also put more pressure on the valve because now its not only the water on the valve keeping it closed but all the water under it is now actually creating suction to keep it closed thus you will need an even larger float.

dingodan87 · 06/17/2019, 01:04 PM

I meant more head pressure above the flapper equaling a greater total force holding it down. Also my float never gets submerged it just opens the flapper enough to drop the water level down to the point where there is no longer tension on the float line. Im not sure what you mean by the pop will never happen thats what happens in every video ive seen of one working. That does make sense about the larger outlet pipe creating a greater suction pulling the flapper down though. Ill try a reducer on the end of the outlet although i feel like that really defeats the purpose. Well see.

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dingodan87 · 06/19/2019, 08:22 AM

Im at my wits end with this thing. Ive tried everything short of tossing it out the window and ive looked at several examples online but i can not find a key element i am missing. Ive tried longer chains, shorter chains, 2 floats, 1 float, taller s trap...what am i missing??? The only clue i have is that if i hold my hand over the outlet pipe until i feel pressure building up and then release my hand it wotks perfect. That tells may i may not have enough back pressure. But i already have an s trap. Should i try a secondary s trap underneath the bucket? Here is a drawing of my design

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dingodan87 · 06/19/2019, 09:27 AM

Although i didnt see an issue having the s tube inside the bucket ( i didnt want to drill more holes in my canopy) i notice now that the initial drop in my s trap is much small than it would be had it been outside the bucket. Could that be my issue? I did see another design with the s trap like mine im not sure how it worked for them but this would be worth a test

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Misled · 06/19/2019, 04:17 PM

The flapper needs to be free of water. There's a "thing" on the bottom that fills with air when it's seated. When it's pulled up, the air pocket helps it pop to the top.

dingodan87 · 06/19/2019, 08:15 PM

It is. I even tried a new flapper designed to trap the air inside longer allowing a longer flush. If i gently tug the float or hold my hand over the outlet pipe for a few seconds it pops up flawlessly.

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boxfishpooalot · 11/02/2019, 06:26 PM

Try it with the exit pipe out of the water.

psyrob · 11/04/2019, 02:23 PM

If you are still working on this, I had the same problem. It started popping when I put a length of PVC pipe into the chamber with the flapper to keep it centered over the outlet hole.
https://youtu.be/t5M_sP8IktY

06/17/2019, 08:23 AM	#1
dingodan87 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 309	Borneman surge flapper wont pop? Has anyone used these devices and can help me troubleshoot why the flapper on my flush valve wont fully pop open? The float will only pull it just enough to let the water pass through at the same rate its coming in to the bucket. I do have an s tube on the 1.5" drain line that comes up just above the flapper level. Ive tried various lengths of fishing line attached to my float. If i manualy tug the float up the device works perfect. Its just not popping open with enough force. Im using a typical toilet tank float ball. Really not interested in a borneman vs carlson vs closed loop vs dc pump vs etc etc debate. Please leave those comments out. Thankyou Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk

06/17/2019, 09:07 AM	#2
skipm Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: St. Helena Is. SC Posts: 2,164	Sounds like there isn't enough flotation to break the suction on the flapper, try either moving the point of attachment for the float as far away from the flapper "hinge" as possible or try a bigger float. You could also try finding a lighter float, some of the toilet floats are kinda heavy. __________________ Caretaker of fishtanks and a spoiled miniature schnauzer. Current Tank Info: Getting ready to set up a new nano after being out of the hobby.

06/19/2019, 04:17 PM	#10
Misled RC Mod Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa Posts: 11,440 Blog Entries: 11	The flapper needs to be free of water. There's a "thing" on the bottom that fills with air when it's seated. When it's pulled up, the air pocket helps it pop to the top. __________________ Jesse I'm not saying I'm Batman. I'm just saying nobody has ever seen me and Batman in a room together.

11/02/2019, 06:26 PM	#12
boxfishpooalot Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada, Grande Praire, Ab Posts: 5,824	Try it with the exit pipe out of the water. __________________ Its a good idea to have a refrence sample for alk test kits. 1.1350 grams of baking soda in 1gallon of distilled water=10dkh. Check your alkalinity test kit! Algae is Mother Natures phosphate remover Current Tank Info: 220 galon mixed reef.

11/04/2019, 02:23 PM	#13
psyrob Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Burbank, CA Posts: 508	If you are still working on this, I had the same problem. It started popping when I put a length of PVC pipe into the chamber with the flapper to keep it centered over the outlet hole. https://youtu.be/t5M_sP8IktY __________________ We have engaged the Borg.... Current Tank Info: 60 gallon mixed reef, 4X54 T5s, 10 gallon frag tank, Reefbreeders PAR38 led bulb, Euroreef Skimmer, wp25 pump ReefAngel controller

06/17/2019, 09:33 AM	#3
dingodan87 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 309	Ok thanks ill try that. Another thing ive noticed on other designs is the drain always seems to reduce in size before entering the tank. Is this necessary? Id rather keep mine 1.5" to the tank and have more flow Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk

06/17/2019, 11:37 AM	#4
EnderG60 Plumbing Engineer Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 3,260	Youre float has to be able to displace more than that amount of water holding the valve closed. 1.5" pipe has an area of 1.8 in2. So if your surge box is 12" tall thats 21 cubic inches( or 0.1 gallons) of water holding the flapper closed. So that is almost a full pound of weight.

06/17/2019, 12:26 PM	#6
EnderG60 Plumbing Engineer Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 3,260	The pop youre talking about wont happen. If a float valve gets fully submerged and has not activated it never will because its buoyancy does not change if its under water or just on it. All the diagrams I have seen for a Borneman show the float sitting on a stand so the water level can reach the stand height before the float starts floating and opens the valve. More Head pressure, just means you move the surge bucket higher. That will make the surge faster but it will also put more pressure on the valve because now its not only the water on the valve keeping it closed but all the water under it is now actually creating suction to keep it closed thus you will need an even larger float.

06/17/2019, 01:04 PM	#7
dingodan87 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 309	I meant more head pressure above the flapper equaling a greater total force holding it down. Also my float never gets submerged it just opens the flapper enough to drop the water level down to the point where there is no longer tension on the float line. Im not sure what you mean by the pop will never happen thats what happens in every video ive seen of one working. That does make sense about the larger outlet pipe creating a greater suction pulling the flapper down though. Ill try a reducer on the end of the outlet although i feel like that really defeats the purpose. Well see. Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk

06/19/2019, 08:22 AM	#8
dingodan87 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 309	Im at my wits end with this thing. Ive tried everything short of tossing it out the window and ive looked at several examples online but i can not find a key element i am missing. Ive tried longer chains, shorter chains, 2 floats, 1 float, taller s trap...what am i missing??? The only clue i have is that if i hold my hand over the outlet pipe until i feel pressure building up and then release my hand it wotks perfect. That tells may i may not have enough back pressure. But i already have an s trap. Should i try a secondary s trap underneath the bucket? Here is a drawing of my design Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk

06/19/2019, 09:27 AM	#9
dingodan87 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 309	Although i didnt see an issue having the s tube inside the bucket ( i didnt want to drill more holes in my canopy) i notice now that the initial drop in my s trap is much small than it would be had it been outside the bucket. Could that be my issue? I did see another design with the s trap like mine im not sure how it worked for them but this would be worth a test Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk

06/19/2019, 08:15 PM	#11
dingodan87 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 309	It is. I even tried a new flapper designed to trap the air inside longer allowing a longer flush. If i gently tug the float or hold my hand over the outlet pipe for a few seconds it pops up flawlessly. Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk