Treating with Vitamin C - Page 36

jdieck · 02/08/2008, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pufferpunk
I assumed the acid would lower the alk but the buffer would even that out

The "buffered" forms of the vitamin are not acids and do not contain carbonate either.
The only explanation I can hypothesize to your alkalinity no longer dropping is a reduction in nirification. You could confirm this if you have measured a reduction in nitrates.

Pufferpunk · 02/08/2008, 11:49 PM

I absolutely do! From around 5 to barely detectable now. Is that why the red turf algae seems to be dying too?

mnestroy · 02/09/2008, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pufferpunk
I'm starting to notice that the scourge of my tank, red turf algae is turning brown & fluffier. Maybe dying? I can only hope the C is killing it!

This is funny you mention this, I never had much algae at all but since dosing I seen a ton of brown junk in my hose lines, etc.

I threw a filter sock in and the whole thing was bright brown in a day.

jdieck · 02/09/2008, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mnestroy
This is funny you mention this, I never had much algae at all but since dosing I seen a ton of brown junk in my hose lines, etc.

I threw a filter sock in and the whole thing was bright brown in a day.

Could it be bacteria or dinoflagelates instead of algae?

Pufferpunk · 02/09/2008, 12:55 AM

Is that all dead algae?

jdieck · 02/09/2008, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pufferpunk
I absolutely do! From around 5 to barely detectable now. Is that why the red turf algae seems to be dying too?

Could be.
By reviewing everyone's response there seems a trend developing.
Seems somehow the reactions may be causing two things. a) Feeding or promoting bacterial growth and/or b) Breaking apart some non skimmable refractory organics (including nitrogenous and orthophosphate forms) into skimmable.
Both cases could reduce the overall level of nutrients.
What still contradicts this is why in some cases micro algae still develops. Could it be that the same stuff that feeds bacteria could feed certain forms of algae (like the one in DT's Pytho?
There is still more questions than answers out there.

Pufferpunk · 02/09/2008, 01:14 AM

What microalgae? Mine seems to be dying.

jdieck · 02/09/2008, 01:21 AM

mnestroy seems to be going trough a microalgae (Phytoplankton) bloom originally seeded by DT's.

Pufferpunk · 02/09/2008, 01:23 AM

Oh, I've got it now. Your monkey's freaking me out.

jdieck · 02/09/2008, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pufferpunk
Your monkey's freaking me out.

PaintGuru · 02/09/2008, 07:53 PM

My hair algae is dying as well. I thought it may be a result of other measures I took to reduce nitrates/phosphates, but perhaps it is the Vit C.

AeroD79 · 02/10/2008, 03:01 AM

My hair algae are not dying and slowly growing but not out of control

Im just dosing 1/4 teaspoon of Calcium Ascorbate daily.

Jeff · 02/10/2008, 06:23 AM

I think the "out of control" part of your post is key here. Vitamin C only seems to help some control algae but if yours is out of control I doubt it can help. You probably need to find the cause of your algae problem and treat it and maybe the vitamin C wwill help your treatment. If you are dosing 1/4 tsp (around 1100 mg) TOTAL per day, thats not that much anyway on a 100 gallon tank.

Vinnie71975 · 02/10/2008, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jdieck
mnestroy seems to be going trough a microalgae (Phytoplankton) bloom originally seeded by DT's.

UV Sterilizer ordered! Cause Ya Mnestroy isn't the only one with a DT's Bloom!

Pufferpunk · 02/10/2008, 10:18 AM

How much are you guys adding? I use DT's too.

killingseed · 02/10/2008, 10:53 AM

be nice to check the water under a microscope and know what your looking for or send a sample somewhere. just a thought

Jeff · 02/10/2008, 11:30 AM

I think I might turn the lights off, do water changes, and stop feeding for a week if that were my tank.

montanabay · 02/10/2008, 11:55 AM

I've done more research:

Looks like dimethylsulfoxide (the rotten egg smell of tidal area or that algae you ripped from your tank) is produced through oxidative processes. There is a lot of literature out there, particularly related to phytoplankton and the global sulfur budget.

I wonder if the anti-oxidant properties of V-C inhibited this oxidative process and is why my tank smells better and algae is on a decrease. This is not to say it is a good thing or bad thing overall for our tanks, after all turning sulfides into a gas is the only way it can leave the tank, other than water changes.

Here is on article abstract on the topic

Oxidation of dimethyl sulfide by plant pigments
Hiroyuki Fuse, Osamu Takimura, Kazuo Kamimura, Katsuji Murakami, and Yukiho Yamaoka
Chugoku National Industrial Research Institute, 2-2-2 Hirosuehiro, Kure, Hiroshima 737-01, Japan
Received: 14 September 1995/Accepted: 13 February 1996

Abstract. Dimethyl sulfide (DMS) was oxidized to dimethylsulfoxide (DMSO) in the presence of lyophilized algae and terrestrial plants as long as they contained pigments. Ratios of DMSO produced to initial DMS were independent of the initial DMS concentrations. High pH was not advantageous for oxidation of DMS. Pheophytin was a more effective sensitizer than chlorophyll for oxidation. Plant material appeared to contain more effective DMS oxidizing pigments than chlorophyll.

montanabay · 02/10/2008, 12:01 PM

here is a nice wikipedia article on it, probably makes better sense of it than I do!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyl_sulfide

Natural sources and link with climate

DMS is the most abundant biological sulfur compound emitted to the atmosphere.[1] Emission occurs over the oceans by phytoplankton. While Andrew Johnston, of the University of East Anglia, has characterized DMS as being the "smell of the sea",[2] it would be more accurate to say that DMS is a component of the "smell of the sea," another being pheromones of algae called dictyopterenes. DMS is also produced naturally by bacterial transformation of dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO) waste that is disposed of into sewers, where it can cause environmental odor problems.[3].

DMS is oxidized in the marine atmosphere to various sulfur-containing compounds, such as sulfur dioxide, dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO), dimethyl sulfone, methane sulfonic acid and sulfuric acid. [4] Among these compounds, sulfuric acid has the potential to create new aerosols which act as cloud condensation nuclei. Through this interaction with cloud formation, the massive production of atmospheric DMS over the oceans may have a significant impact on the Earth's climate.[5]

Recent research suggests that marine bacteria are reducing the amount of this important climate cooling gas given off from our seas.[citation needed]

Vinnie71975 · 02/10/2008, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by montanabay
I've done more research:

Looks like dimethylsulfoxide (the rotten egg smell of tidal area or that algae you ripped from your tank) is produced through oxidative processes. There is a lot of literature out there, particularly related to phytoplankton and the global sulfur budget.

I wonder if the anti-oxidant properties of V-C inhibited this oxidative process and is why my tank smells better and algae is on a decrease. This is not to say it is a good thing or bad thing overall for our tanks, after all turning sulfides into a gas is the only way it can leave the tank, other than water changes.

Here is on article abstract on the topic

Oxidation of dimethyl sulfide by plant pigments
Hiroyuki Fuse, Osamu Takimura, Kazuo Kamimura, Katsuji Murakami, and Yukiho Yamaoka
Chugoku National Industrial Research Institute, 2-2-2 Hirosuehiro, Kure, Hiroshima 737-01, Japan
Received: 14 September 1995/Accepted: 13 February 1996

Abstract. Dimethyl sulfide (DMS) was oxidized to dimethylsulfoxide (DMSO) in the presence of lyophilized algae and terrestrial plants as long as they contained pigments. Ratios of DMSO produced to initial DMS were independent of the initial DMS concentrations. High pH was not advantageous for oxidation of DMS. Pheophytin was a more effective sensitizer than chlorophyll for oxidation. Plant material appeared to contain more effective DMS oxidizing pigments than chlorophyll.

Funny thing is it dont have a bad smell, it does smell like Phyto but its not a real strong odor nor is it overpowering

Pufferpunk · 02/11/2008, 09:46 PM

I have been trying to contact Albert Theil to see if he would like to give us some insight on this but I can't find him.

Myrddraal · 02/12/2008, 11:03 AM

I'm waiting for pure VC to be delivered so I've stopped dosing for now. One interesting thing I noticed last night while feeding though is that my Hikari brand frozen mysis has L. ascorbate (Vit. C) listed in the ingredients!

b16drag · 02/12/2008, 11:44 AM

Quite a few of the frozen foods have been supplemented with vitamins etc.

RoyalEnchntrss · 02/12/2008, 08:38 PM

I'm sure glad my powder came the other day! I started getting a white slimey film all over everything? I can only assume it was from the pills?? It's really gross! I cleaned a bunch of it off today...

PaintGuru · 02/13/2008, 10:26 AM

I think our next experiment should be to have folks who have seen success with Vit C reduce their frequency of dosing while keeping the amount added the same. I'm just curious if someone, who has been adding 2000mg 2x/day would continue to see the same benefit if they reduced it to say 2000mg 2x/one day then skip a day, or once/week. This would let us find the point of diminishing returns.

02/09/2008, 01:21 AM	#883
jdieck Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Maumee, OH Posts: 15,673	mnestroy seems to be going trough a microalgae (Phytoplankton) bloom originally seeded by DT's. __________________ Did I write what I wrote? What the heck am I talking about! Well..... Nevermind. Current Tank Info: 225 gal reef, DSB, 40 g sump w/ LRT100 return, 37 g pre-sump, 3 MH 250 W 15K, 4 96 W PC dual actinic,ETS 1500 Skim.w/LRT70, 20 lb Ca R., 40 W UV, 1/3 HP chiller, two 350 W Htrs, Neptune II Cont., 330 P LR/ 330 P LS. 55 gal Refugium

02/10/2008, 03:01 AM	#887
AeroD79 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Campbell Posts: 1,784	My hair algae are not dying and slowly growing but not out of control Im just dosing 1/4 teaspoon of Calcium Ascorbate daily. __________________ /\_/\ * * ~ Current Tank Info: retired.

02/10/2008, 06:23 AM	#888
Jeff Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 11,907	I think the "out of control" part of your post is key here. Vitamin C only seems to help some control algae but if yours is out of control I doubt it can help. You probably need to find the cause of your algae problem and treat it and maybe the vitamin C wwill help your treatment. If you are dosing 1/4 tsp (around 1100 mg) TOTAL per day, thats not that much anyway on a 100 gallon tank. __________________ Always remember.... any time you reef, you also reef with every reefer that reefer has reefed with. Mitch 2/18/10 IWNFT343F Current Tank Info: Innovative Marine 20

02/10/2008, 11:30 AM	#892
Jeff Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 11,907	I think I might turn the lights off, do water changes, and stop feeding for a week if that were my tank. __________________ Always remember.... any time you reef, you also reef with every reefer that reefer has reefed with. Mitch 2/18/10 IWNFT343F Current Tank Info: Innovative Marine 20

02/12/2008, 11:03 AM	#897
Myrddraal Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 431	I'm waiting for pure VC to be delivered so I've stopped dosing for now. One interesting thing I noticed last night while feeding though is that my Hikari brand frozen mysis has L. ascorbate (Vit. C) listed in the ingredients! __________________ ~Jayson

02/08/2008, 11:49 PM	#877
Pufferpunk Moved On Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Franklin Park, IL Posts: 21,027	I absolutely do! From around 5 to barely detectable now. Is that why the red turf algae seems to be dying too?

02/09/2008, 12:55 AM	#880
Pufferpunk Moved On Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Franklin Park, IL Posts: 21,027	Is that all dead algae?

02/09/2008, 01:14 AM	#882
Pufferpunk Moved On Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Franklin Park, IL Posts: 21,027	What microalgae? Mine seems to be dying.

02/09/2008, 01:23 AM	#884
Pufferpunk Moved On Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Franklin Park, IL Posts: 21,027	Oh, I've got it now. Your monkey's freaking me out.

02/09/2008, 07:53 PM	#886
PaintGuru Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Livonia, MI Posts: 859	My hair algae is dying as well. I thought it may be a result of other measures I took to reduce nitrates/phosphates, but perhaps it is the Vit C.

02/10/2008, 10:18 AM	#890
Pufferpunk Moved On Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Franklin Park, IL Posts: 21,027	How much are you guys adding? I use DT's too.

02/10/2008, 10:53 AM	#891
killingseed Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: El Paso , TX Posts: 2,714	be nice to check the water under a microscope and know what your looking for or send a sample somewhere. just a thought

02/10/2008, 11:55 AM	#893
montanabay Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Berkeley, CA Posts: 465	I've done more research: Looks like dimethylsulfoxide (the rotten egg smell of tidal area or that algae you ripped from your tank) is produced through oxidative processes. There is a lot of literature out there, particularly related to phytoplankton and the global sulfur budget. I wonder if the anti-oxidant properties of V-C inhibited this oxidative process and is why my tank smells better and algae is on a decrease. This is not to say it is a good thing or bad thing overall for our tanks, after all turning sulfides into a gas is the only way it can leave the tank, other than water changes. Here is on article abstract on the topic Oxidation of dimethyl sulfide by plant pigments Hiroyuki Fuse, Osamu Takimura, Kazuo Kamimura, Katsuji Murakami, and Yukiho Yamaoka Chugoku National Industrial Research Institute, 2-2-2 Hirosuehiro, Kure, Hiroshima 737-01, Japan Received: 14 September 1995/Accepted: 13 February 1996 Abstract. Dimethyl sulfide (DMS) was oxidized to dimethylsulfoxide (DMSO) in the presence of lyophilized algae and terrestrial plants as long as they contained pigments. Ratios of DMSO produced to initial DMS were independent of the initial DMS concentrations. High pH was not advantageous for oxidation of DMS. Pheophytin was a more effective sensitizer than chlorophyll for oxidation. Plant material appeared to contain more effective DMS oxidizing pigments than chlorophyll.

02/10/2008, 12:01 PM	#894
montanabay Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Berkeley, CA Posts: 465	here is a nice wikipedia article on it, probably makes better sense of it than I do! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyl_sulfide Natural sources and link with climate DMS is the most abundant biological sulfur compound emitted to the atmosphere.[1] Emission occurs over the oceans by phytoplankton. While Andrew Johnston, of the University of East Anglia, has characterized DMS as being the "smell of the sea",[2] it would be more accurate to say that DMS is a component of the "smell of the sea," another being pheromones of algae called dictyopterenes. DMS is also produced naturally by bacterial transformation of dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO) waste that is disposed of into sewers, where it can cause environmental odor problems.[3]. DMS is oxidized in the marine atmosphere to various sulfur-containing compounds, such as sulfur dioxide, dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO), dimethyl sulfone, methane sulfonic acid and sulfuric acid. [4] Among these compounds, sulfuric acid has the potential to create new aerosols which act as cloud condensation nuclei. Through this interaction with cloud formation, the massive production of atmospheric DMS over the oceans may have a significant impact on the Earth's climate.[5] Recent research suggests that marine bacteria are reducing the amount of this important climate cooling gas given off from our seas.[citation needed]

02/11/2008, 09:46 PM	#896
Pufferpunk Moved On Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Franklin Park, IL Posts: 21,027	I have been trying to contact Albert Theil to see if he would like to give us some insight on this but I can't find him.

02/12/2008, 11:44 AM	#898
b16drag Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: California Posts: 903	Quite a few of the frozen foods have been supplemented with vitamins etc.

02/12/2008, 08:38 PM	#899
RoyalEnchntrss Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Altoona, PA Posts: 81	I'm sure glad my powder came the other day! I started getting a white slimey film all over everything? I can only assume it was from the pills?? It's really gross! I cleaned a bunch of it off today... __________________ Ms. Fins :)

02/13/2008, 10:26 AM	#900
PaintGuru Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Livonia, MI Posts: 859	I think our next experiment should be to have folks who have seen success with Vit C reduce their frequency of dosing while keeping the amount added the same. I'm just curious if someone, who has been adding 2000mg 2x/day would continue to see the same benefit if they reduced it to say 2000mg 2x/one day then skip a day, or once/week. This would let us find the point of diminishing returns.