Learning/rebuilding from my epic fail

[reefmutt]

Matt, I'm glad you said that. It is what I wanted to hear even though I was ready to do the opposite.
I will do nothing for now. Thanks, Matt!
Here's a shot of the filter sock I ran during the blackout sitting next to a couple usual ones..

[Myka]

Originally Posted by reefmutt

N went from .25 to 6
P went from .05 to .16!
Yes.. .16
Now, I am curious to know what others would do going forward from here..
Like I said, I will reduce feedings and reduce additives but I'm not sure this will really control things..
I'm going to give it a week or so and see what happens..
I am hoping (wishing) to see my cheato go into overdrive...
I have to say (Matt) that I am seriously considering adding some AIO pellets again... But not sure yet..

Do you have the ability with the way your tank is setup to drip Lanthanum chloride directly into your skimmer? Or some sort of LC reactor? I don't condone dripping LC into your sump without a surefire removal system. Since the PO4 went up fast, you can bring it down fast too. That's what I'd do. NO3 at 6 I wouldn't bat an eye at.

[mhucasey]

Originally Posted by reefmutt

Matt, I'm glad you said that. It is what I wanted to hear even though I was ready to do the opposite.
I will do nothing for now. Thanks, Matt!
Here's a shot of the filter sock I ran during the blackout sitting next to a couple usual ones..

Good good, a bunch of changes now won't be good at all!

May I ask why you use filter socks? I truly think those things are a hindrance to your reef. They strain out planktonic bacteria, amphipods and copepods that are beneficial to your reef, and they don't really make your water any clearer. In my opinion, let the particles sort themselves out and the tank will be healthier.

[DiscusHeckel]

Originally Posted by reefmutt

Bulent, your theory would make sense but you don't realize the extent of the cyano I had in the tank. It wasn't just cyano here and there, it was a thick solid mat covering 85% of the available space in the tank.
The RSR killed 90% of the cyano.
So, when I began the black out on Thursday, I turned down my calcium reactor in anticipation of non growth.
I also did not feed any food for 3-4 days or add anything at all. No color elements, no iron or nitrate, no Roids/pearls/vitality
Nothing..
And the numbers are in..
Alk still went from 7 ish to 8.2 - this could be due to the wet skimming and the additions of io salt...
N went from .25 to 6
P went from .05 to .16!
Yes.. .16
Now, I am curious to know what others would do going forward from here..
Like I said, I will reduce feedings and reduce additives but I'm not sure this will really control things..
I'm going to give it a week or so and see what happens..
I am hoping (wishing) to see my cheato go into overdrive...
I have to say (Matt) that I am seriously considering adding some AIO pellets again... But not sure yet..

Hi Matt,

I predicted an upward spike in nutrients in a previous post, but obviously did not know the extend of cyanobacteria in your tank without seeing FTS.

I would personally not change anything as Matt (@mhucasey) advised. Perhaps the only action I would take is to use good quality activated carbon passively (1/2 (US) cup per 50 (US) gallon; rinse after one week and use for one month as per @Boomer's advice).

[nemodan]

Agree with discusheckel and Mhucasey . Let the biology kick off and numbers return slowly.

I do not feed anything to my corals. Only the fish. Now you can probably feed the fish every other day. I did it for some months until the P. Was low.

Neither I use any mechanical filter in my tank as Mhucasey. Just biology.

[reefmutt]

Originally Posted by Myka

Do you have the ability with the way your tank is setup to drip Lanthanum chloride directly into your skimmer? Or some sort of LC reactor? I don't condone dripping LC into your sump without a surefire removal system. Since the PO4 went up fast, you can bring it down fast too. That's what I'd do. NO3 at 6 I wouldn't bat an eye at.

Hey Mindy, I actually have a doser and LC.. But I don't think I want to go that route. I think I should just watch and see what happens..
Lanthanum chloride seems like a bandaid solution...but I guess if you intend to use it indefinitely, it could be a solution but I'll hold off.. I get what you are saying about bringing p back down to where it was, but I'm not sure it'll get back there very soon, so I'll just let it go..

Originally Posted by mhucasey

Good good, a bunch of changes now won't be good at all!

May I ask why you use filter socks? I truly think those things are a hindrance to your reef. They strain out planktonic bacteria, amphipods and copepods that are beneficial to your reef, and they don't really make your water any clearer. In my opinion, let the particles sort themselves out and the tank will be healthier.

I can't disagree with you on that, Matt but I don't think it has as dramatic effect on pod populations as you make it sound..
I have never used a filter sock before and I'm amazed at how fast they get clogged up... I put one on once a week. Usually after about 3 days, it's clogged and the water is spilling over the edge, I just let it go.
Mainly I use it for catching bubbles as my water falls out of one sump and into another, just before the return pump.. Settles the water and removes bubbles mainly..

[reefmutt]

Originally Posted by DiscusHeckel

Hi Matt,

I predicted an upward spike in nutrients in a previous post, but obviously did not know the extend of cyanobacteria in your tank without seeing FTS.

I would personally not change anything as Matt (@mhucasey) advised. Perhaps the only action I would take is to use good quality activated carbon passively (1/2 (US) cup per 50 (US) gallon; rinse after one week and use for one month as per @Boomer's advice).

I added some carbon but not as much as you suggested, Bulent- about half that amount.. I might add a it more in a passive area..thanks for the suggestion.

Originally Posted by nemodan

Agree with discusheckel and Mhucasey . Let the biology kick off and numbers return slowly.

I do not feed anything to my corals. Only the fish. Now you can probably feed the fish every other day. I did it for some months until the P. Was low.

Neither I use any mechanical filter in my tank as Mhucasey. Just biology.

I will cut my feedings in half..
I like consensus!
I will not rest all week and see where things are next weekend with the tank on rations..
I haven't turned my mh back in yet.. I'm going to give the tank only two hours this week- let the cheato have the bright light for the week and keep the bubble algea, remaining cyano and bryopsis in the dark (relatively speaking)

Thanks, guys! I appreciate the feedback!

[nemodan]

Ok... this is for my learning background. How many days, if someone knows a "number" you can have acros like you are doing now..... it was 3 days of no light and now some more days with just 2 hours of light.

My friend at Boston Reefers, that leaves in a neighbor town, and has 2000 Gallons in several tanks FULL of hundreds of Acro frags (plus 2 display tanks), so he know something about Acros, told me , that in average 4 hours of Actinic / full spectrum light is all what they need to have their daily photosynthesis requirements fulfilled.

I would like to know because if I have an issue like yours Matt or an issue with the lights, that can take days to be solved, is good to be ready.

Cheers.... Thanks
Daniel

[reefmutt]

Dan, just to clarify, I had the tank in the dark for 3 days and then I turned on my LEDs for full day as well as 4 t5 bulbs- 2 blue plus a coral plus and an actinic.
Sunday and Monday have had these lights on so the corals were only in complete dark for 3 days..

I really don't know the answer to your question. I think it's pretty debatable and may depend on the intensity of your 'daylight' lighting..
I would assume that they would need less time under 400w bulbs than 150w bulbs..
I have seen some really nice reefs where the mh was only in 4-6 hours a day and I've seen really nice reefs where the mh were on longer..

[nemodan]

Thank you Matt. Nice to know that at least 3 days in the dark for Acros/SPS do not affect them.

Cheers
Daniel

[mhucasey]

Well, it's been a week...how are things going?

[reefmutt]

So far so good..
If I get the chance, I'll shoot the tank and post some pics..
At the arena right now..

[reefmutt]

Ok! Little update..
I am 95% cyano free.. The small remnants are not going away and may be spreading ever so slightly... Not bad though.
Right after the cyano treatment n was at 6 and p was .16..
Today n was at 1.5 and p was at .13
So nutrients have dropped a bit..
All corals seem fine, maybe paled down a bit but pe is excellent and some corals continued to grow throughout the treatment..
I had some very minor rtn in my frag tank. Probably because oxygen levels my have dropped over there more than in the main display. One dragon type coral in the display has a spot of stn. I'll watch it. Hopefully it'll stop..
Alk climbed during the treatment week despite my turning down my ca reactor. Alk climbed to 8.2 from around 7 ish.
It has stayed at 8.2 all week. Not going to adjust anything..
I am also not going to do anything in particular about n and p just yet.
I used the cyano treatment as a reset..
I did not add any color elements or aminos or potassium nitrate this week. I cut fish feeding in half and I also cut my additions of my Reef Roids/Reef Pearls/FM Vitality mix in half..
I did two treatments of coral snow/zeobac/zeofood. Once on Monday and once on Saturday night at lights out.
I will not add any more aminos or color elements for the foreseeable future. If n drops any more, I may add kno3 again to keep it up at 2-5 ppm. But at 1.5, I will leave it unless it drops further... Once I have established a new stability, I'll play with aditives again.. Maybe..
After discussing Reef Roids with the owner of Polyp Lab (Phil Gilbert) I have come to the conclusion that I am still adding aminos from the Reef Roids. Adding Polyp Lab's amino supplement Colors may have been (probably was) overkill for me..
He was explaining to me the difference between his amino additive and those of TLF and Salifert. Colors does not contain aspartic acid, but a mix of different aminos (I could probably get a list of anybody is interested..)
He informed me that the product Polyp Booster (which is primarily a wet version of Reef Roids) contains pretty much all of the aminos contained in Colors. So my adding Reef Roids on a regular basis as well as Colors was probably too much for my tank-- especially considering I wasn't even running a low nutrient system and I was adding nitrate..
Each of those products contain different concentrations of aminos. Colors (with dosage recommendations of 1 drop per 250g system water) being the most concentrated. So, like any additive, one must gauge the required amount of supplement one's own reef requires..
As usual, I was overdoing it!! I think I am probably not alone in his regard..
I am sticking with my reduced additions of Roids/Pearls/Vitality because I have been doing it from day one and.. Well.. I just like it!!
Ok! Latest fts..
I know.. Can't see nuttin..

Right hand island:

Centre island:

Left and centre islands:

Centre top down:

Closer up of my Cali tort and little ssc frag which has begun to grow a tiny bit..


I have more shots.. I'm going to sort them out and fix'em up a bit and post some more.. Of course they'll be macros..

[sahin]

Wow!!! Looking great Matt!!!! I am loving the results you are having.

I have a question about the overall "blue look" of your tank; is it same as the photo shows or is the tank much warmer in appearance in person?

[DiscusHeckel]

As ^^^. I love the aquascape. I prefer FTS to macro shots because I can get a better idea about how a tank is progressing overall.

I would personally not dose any of the stuff designed for feeding corals and feed your fish heavily instead, but it is up to you. Feeding sps is not like feeding lps. At least when you feed lps corals, you know that food is taken in and that you can control how much you feed (target feeding only). FWIW, when I used cyanoclean and ZEObak I noticed increased growth in my corals. I guess they must feed on additional bacteria introduced via dosing.

Some of the bubble algae look quite ripe. If you gently touch them with your index finger, they should tilt readily, in which case you can remove them by hand without bursting them.

[reefmutt]

Thanks, Sahin!
These shots have been 'warmed up' in post production! And I set my camera to 10k..
With LEDs set at 75% blue and about 15%white as well as 3 radium mh bulbs and 2 blue plus, one actinic and 1 coral plus, the tank definitely has an overall blue look..

[reefmutt]

Originally Posted by DiscusHeckel

As ^^^. I love the aquascape. I prefer FTS to macro shots because I can get a better idea about how a tank is progressing overall.

I would personally not dose any of the stuff designed for feeding corals and feed your fish heavily instead, but it is up to you. Feeding sps is not like feeding lps. At least when you feed lps corals, you know that food is taken in and that you can control how much you feed (target feeding only). FWIW, when I used cyanoclean and ZEObak I noticed increased growth in my corals. I guess they must feed on additional bacteria introduced via dosing.

Some of the bubble algae look quite ripe. If you gently touch them with your index finger, they should tilt readily, in which case you can remove them by hand without bursting them.

Thanks, Bulent!
At any given moment, there are a few full bubbles and a few bubble skins flowing around in the current..
Yes, there are many 'ripe' bubbles that I can remove..
Recently, I filled a 750ml container with them...
I will have to go picking again soon.. I don't worry too much about popping them.. There are so many bubble at various stages of 'ripeness' that whether I pop a few or not, the spore count in the water probably isn't changing much..
Maybe I'll add some cyanoclean to my zeobac additions.. I have never tried cyanoclean.. Maybe it'll clear up the last bits of cyano..
You are absolutely right about sps foods vs lps foods... But this mix I add is one of the only things my gut tells me to keep adding..
God knows my gut has been wrong in the past, but.........

The one thing I forgot to mention, that I will start doing regularly, is adding a sheet of nori for my tangs. After reading about the aspartic acid additions one will achieve from having the fish eat nori (on Matt's thread, from reefvet) I like the dual purpose of feeding the fish and feeding the corals..

[nemodan]

Hi Matt.... Nice to see that you are winning the ciano battle. NICE tank !!! And the aqua scape is really very eye catching.

Let see how the tank finds the equilibrium again in P, N and Alk. Slowly, as we always tell others...... But is not easy to follow it ...

Cheers
Daniel

[afernandez]

I like It!

I too hate that can't you can't really see much unless you take a series of photos to cover the entire tank. But the tank looks great . Bubble algae drove me crazy in my last tank but like you I dealt with it just.. Nothing else you can really do about it . Corals look happy and jolly. I was telling my buddy today "it's always something in this hobby " Everything will work its self out .

Looking forward to more pictures

[mhucasey]

Matt, the tank is looking really good! How is your growth on the acros? I'm becoming obsessed with getting the perfect environment for the corals and every little bit of info is going into the mental database

[ReefSalt]

Nice to see everything doing good Matt ,the reef is looking sweet. I have some bubble algae but its controllable so I dont worry about it.

I am going to pick up a Pax for my Christmas gift to myself , I like the way its built and the idea is well thought.
Not to mention less stuff in my main sump.

[markalot]

Nice to see some pics, those acros look fantastic and the scape is working really really well.

I should add some of that bubble algae might make it to the Guinness book of world records. My Foxface won't even touch the bubbles when they get that big. I think having bubble algae is a requirement for healthy acros ... at least that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[.Chris.]

Your scape is really incredible. The depth of your tank brings a whole new dimension to it. I can't wait until you stop screwing with things and just let them grow out. If you maintain that colour,when they're full colonies you'll have a tank of the month for sure.

[reefmutt]

Originally Posted by nemodan

Hi Matt.... Nice to see that you are winning the ciano battle. NICE tank !!! And the aqua scape is really very eye catching.

Let see how the tank finds the equilibrium again in P, N and Alk. Slowly, as we always tell others...... But is not easy to follow it ...

Cheers
Daniel

Thanks, Daniel. I'm leaving alone...... for now the cyano is actually darkening on the sand very slowly....

Originally Posted by afernandez

I like It!

I too hate that can't you can't really see much unless you take a series of photos to cover the entire tank. But the tank looks great . Bubble algae drove me crazy in my last tank but like you I dealt with it just.. Nothing else you can really do about it . Corals look happy and jolly. I was telling my buddy today "it's always something in this hobby " Everything will work its self out .

Looking forward to more pictures

Thanks, Arlin. Yep.... It IS always something.. The bubbles are a pain.. I have to get some emerald crabs..
My fts always come out lousy.. I'll have to try some medium length shots..

Originally Posted by mhucasey

Matt, the tank is looking really good! How is your growth on the acros? I'm becoming obsessed with getting the perfect environment for the corals and every little bit of info is going into the mental database

Thanks, Matt. I would say that as he corals begin to grow, the growth rate seems to increase, but in general, I would call the growth slow- with a few fast growing exceptions..

Originally Posted by ReefSalt

Nice to see everything doing good Matt ,the reef is looking sweet. I have some bubble algae but its controllable so I dont worry about it.

I am going to pick up a Pax for my Christmas gift to myself , I like the way its built and the idea is well thought.
Not to mention less stuff in my main sump.

Thanks, Rob. I definitely have to come see that pax bellum when you get it. I want to see one in person. Enjoy your gift to yourself!

Originally Posted by markalot

Nice to see some pics, those acros look fantastic and the scape is working really really well.

I should add some of that bubble algae might make it to the Guinness book of world records. My Foxface won't even touch the bubbles when they get that big. I think having bubble algae is a requirement for healthy acros ... at least that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Ha! I'll go with bubble=coral health as well.. The bubbles are bugging me, but they aren't as bad as the cyano.. The small one floating around aren't so nice, however.

Originally Posted by .Chris.

Your scape is really incredible. The depth of your tank brings a whole new dimension to it. I can't wait until you stop screwing with things and just let them grow out. If you maintain that colour,when they're full colonies you'll have a tank of the month for sure.

Very nice, Chris, thanks.
Me?? Screw around with things... Moi??
I got plenty more screwing around to do..
The problem with frags is that it is so hard to get a sense of their potential shape until they are a bit bigger so as they grow, there's a good chance, they'll be relocated.. We'll see. Some can be moved and some can't..

Gonna post a few shots... I am starting to repeat myself in photos..sorry..

[reefmutt]

Ok. Here's some shots of some corals that have begun to grow..
This one has decent growth at the bottom and right

This ssc is not the 'good one' but it has begun to pop from every direction..

I've certainly shot this one a lot.. It's really starting to push out ..

Ok well this doesn't really show the growth but my orange passion has become a good grower.. I just like this shot..

So this one I probably have too many shots of.. But it's awesome and growing quite quickly..

Sorry... Another!!

Here's a shot of the old base. It's really taking off as well..

This Fiji piece has also decided to push out sideways..

The growth at the base of this one is growing more and more quickly..

Ok. That's it or now... Maybe..