Bean Animal Emerg Standpipe Height ?

YYCReefer · 12/04/2018, 03:23 PM

Have the tank up and running and the overflow works but I suspect that it's not optimal. I find the tuning is razor-sharp and I think this relates to the relative heights between the standpipes, the tank level and the level in the overflow box.

Most of all, according to the original designer, it's normal for the emergency standpipe to carry water on startup whereas mine is high and dry.

So...I have a coast-coast setup and the overflow box water level is 1-2' below tank level. My open channel is ~1/8" higher than the siphon and the emergency is ~3/8 short of the lip of the tank.

Other than the finicky tuning, I find that on startup, not enough water gets back to the sump in time and the return pump sucks air, filling the display with air bubbles. I clearly need to shorten the emerg standipipe height and I'm thinking it should be below normal tank level so it can return water to the sump faster on startup.

I'm thinking 1/8" below tank level.

Someone convince me this is a good idea or that I'm and idot -before I cut it!

bblumberg · 12/04/2018, 04:14 PM

I have Bean Animal overflows on 3 of my tanks now and all work well and quietly. I think that for optimum results, the full siphon should be significantly lower than the open channel (mine are 1-2", 2" on the more recent builds). You may be limited with the coast-to-coast by the depth of your overflow box, but I'd try for at least an inch of difference if you can get it.

The open channel is what you use to set the height of water in the overflow box. I'd size it such that a water level of half way up the open channel elbow is equal to the height you want to maintain in the overflow. Then set the overflow water level to this height by adjusting the gate valve on the full siphon. The emergency should be set at or just below the maximum height you ever want the water in the tank to reach.

YYCReefer · 12/04/2018, 04:53 PM

Wow....that is nothing like the original design document, which shows the siphon an open channel at the same height.

I have lots of depth in the overflow but the hard part will be getting a tool in there to make the cuts ! (standpipes are glued into the bulkheads).

Lsufan · 12/04/2018, 11:04 PM

U must have a very small return section in your sump. I’m not sure lowering the emergency is going to work, but it’s hard to say without knowing more & it also may end up causing other issues. How high is the water building up in the box on startup? If it is building up to the top of the box then lowering the emergency to 1/2 or so below the top of the overflow box may work if u only need a small amount of water for the pump not to suck air. Lowering it could possibly make it a little harder on the syphon to purge its air. It may still purge the air but it may take it a little longer to do so.

The only reason for the syphon to be lower then the open channel is if u have issues purging air from the syphon on startup. If someone has a bunch of 90’s in there plumbing or other things to make it harder to purge the air from the syphon is usually the only time it’s a issue. What happens is the open channel takes on water before there is enough pressure for the syphon to purge the air. So by raising the open channel it creates more pressure to purge the air from the syphon. That isn’t your issue.

If your return pump is made to be a submersible or to use exterior like a bunch of pumps that are out now u could attach a piece of pipe to essentially lower the input of the pump to where it sucks water from the bottom of the return section. U could also try raising the returns inside of the tank so u don’t drain as much water from the tank when u turn the return off. U would drain as much water to the sump but the return section should stay full. That way u don’t have to pump as much water back into the tank on startup.

Exterior or ghost type boxes is when the height differences between the syphon & open channel come into play. The hieght of the open channel standpipe dictates where u want to set the water level inside of the box. On a interior box it doesn’t matter because it is the bulkhead hieght that dictates the water level & that is going to be wherever it is drilled in the tank.

mcgyvr · 12/05/2018, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YYCReefer

Other than the finicky tuning, I find that on startup, not enough water gets back to the sump in time and the return pump sucks air, filling the display with air bubbles. I clearly need to shorten the emerg standipipe height and I'm thinking it should be below normal tank level so it can return water to the sump faster on startup.

IMO the emergency standpipe is not something I would bring up in a discussion of your stated problem..

You may just have a return section that is too small in your sump..
You may have a pump pushing too much water..
Many other reasons unrelated to the emergency line..

YYCReefer · 12/05/2018, 02:49 PM

The reason I'm fixated on the emergency line is that the original design stated that it was normal for the emergency to carry water on startup and mine does not. Not by a long shot.

My return area is not huge, its' true but I'm confident that a little tweaking of the standpipes should get enough water back to the sump in time to avoid cavitation.

I might also look at a 90° elbow on the return pump intake to give me a little more cushion.

mcgyvr · 12/05/2018, 06:23 PM

Dont be fixated on that statement. Its not a requirement at all and changing it may have no effect on your issue...
Mine doesnt carry water during startup...

Lsufan · 12/05/2018, 07:28 PM

From the first post it sounds like u have a internal overflow box with a back drilled tank. If so then the emergency really only needs to be a 90 facing up. U shouldn’t extend it any higher with a piece of pipe in the 90. If that is what u have then u can’t lower it any. If u have a piece of pipe in the 90 to raise it,remove the piece of pipe & leave the 90.

I guess I’m a little confused on the type of overflow u have. It sounded like a internal c2c but then u mention standpipes & back drilled tank with a c2c box doesn’t have standpipes. The 90’s go straight into the bulkhead, so it is the bulkheads that actually determine the heights.

bblumberg · 12/05/2018, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YYCReefer

Wow....that is nothing like the original design document, which shows the siphon an open channel at the same height.

I have lots of depth in the overflow but the hard part will be getting a tool in there to make the cuts ! (standpipes are glued into the bulkheads).

Ouch, that will make life very difficult. The next time you are planning major maintenance, it might make sense to change the bulkheads and use standpipes that press in, or screw in. Of course this will cause an additional headache below the tank...

I played with the heights of my standpipes until I got robust and reliable tuning. Mine are also in standard trapezoidal overflows which is different from Bean's original design...

Lsufan · 12/05/2018, 08:35 PM

I didn’t see your post before mine mentioning u had a bottom drilled tank. U could try lowering the syphon but I don’t think it will make a big difference. Lowering the syphon may make it purge the air quicker so the water doesn’t build up as much on startup. It will also help it not be so finicky on the adjustments. I still think your best bet is to attach a 90 to the return pump so it pulls water from the bottom of your return section.

mcgyvr · 12/06/2018, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lsufan

I still think your best bet is to attach a 90 to the return pump so it pulls water from the bottom of your return section.

That is usually not a good idea with a pump unless said 90 is something like 12" away from the volute entrance.. A 90 directly off the entrance can cause cavitation by itself..

IMO a pump "gurgling" during startup is really not a big deal.. Its temporary.. Just leave it as is IMO..

Now.. Pictures of the setup including it running and not running to show water levels would allow us to not have to guess so much as to the problem here..

YYCReefer · 12/16/2018, 01:05 PM

Yes, a pic would be worth the proverbial thousand words but a) I wasn't sure I'd have priviledges to post a pic yet b) it's really hard to get a pic showing the levels of the pipes.

This pic is the best I could do.

I cut the siphon down about 1.5" (using a dremel, freehand !) and the open channel about 3/4". I also trimmed about 1/4" off the emergency.

It's MUCH more stable now and behaves as expected.

So.....there are multiple serious omissions from the original beananimal.com site:

1) The siphon and open channel pipes should not empty any more than 1" below the water level in the sump *CRITICAL*

2) The level in your overflow is set by the height of the open channel pipe

3) The tuneability and stability of the whole system replies on the siphon standpipe being considerably lower than the open channel *CRITICAL*

4) The emergency standpipe does not necessarily (and IMHO should not) carry water on startup -or ever.

If anyone knows the gentleman who owns the beananimal site and can convince him to update his article a little it would save people a lot of grief !

12/04/2018, 03:23 PM	#1
YYCReefer Registered Member Join Date: May 2018 Location: Calgary, Canada Posts: 14	Bean Animal Emerg Standpipe Height ? Have the tank up and running and the overflow works but I suspect that it's not optimal. I find the tuning is razor-sharp and I think this relates to the relative heights between the standpipes, the tank level and the level in the overflow box. Most of all, according to the original designer, it's normal for the emergency standpipe to carry water on startup whereas mine is high and dry. So...I have a coast-coast setup and the overflow box water level is 1-2' below tank level. My open channel is ~1/8" higher than the siphon and the emergency is ~3/8 short of the lip of the tank. Other than the finicky tuning, I find that on startup, not enough water gets back to the sump in time and the return pump sucks air, filling the display with air bubbles. I clearly need to shorten the emerg standipipe height and I'm thinking it should be below normal tank level so it can return water to the sump faster on startup. I'm thinking 1/8" below tank level. Someone convince me this is a good idea or that I'm and idot -before I cut it!

12/04/2018, 04:14 PM	#2
bblumberg Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Irvine, CA Posts: 606	I have Bean Animal overflows on 3 of my tanks now and all work well and quietly. I think that for optimum results, the full siphon should be significantly lower than the open channel (mine are 1-2", 2" on the more recent builds). You may be limited with the coast-to-coast by the depth of your overflow box, but I'd try for at least an inch of difference if you can get it. The open channel is what you use to set the height of water in the overflow box. I'd size it such that a water level of half way up the open channel elbow is equal to the height you want to maintain in the overflow. Then set the overflow water level to this height by adjusting the gate valve on the full siphon. The emergency should be set at or just below the maximum height you ever want the water in the tank to reach. __________________ Bruce Current Tank Info: 150G mixed reef (6x Blue Acro 20K Pro COB LEDs, 4x 80W T5 supplement), 150g fw discus (T5 lighting), 110G fw Angelfish (DIY LED lighting), 4 x 40 g frag tanks (DIY LED).

12/04/2018, 04:53 PM	#3
YYCReefer Registered Member Join Date: May 2018 Location: Calgary, Canada Posts: 14	Wow....that is nothing like the original design document, which shows the siphon an open channel at the same height. I have lots of depth in the overflow but the hard part will be getting a tool in there to make the cuts ! (standpipes are glued into the bulkheads). __________________ - Mark

12/04/2018, 11:04 PM	#4
Lsufan Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Baton Rouge Posts: 1,410	U must have a very small return section in your sump. I’m not sure lowering the emergency is going to work, but it’s hard to say without knowing more & it also may end up causing other issues. How high is the water building up in the box on startup? If it is building up to the top of the box then lowering the emergency to 1/2 or so below the top of the overflow box may work if u only need a small amount of water for the pump not to suck air. Lowering it could possibly make it a little harder on the syphon to purge its air. It may still purge the air but it may take it a little longer to do so. The only reason for the syphon to be lower then the open channel is if u have issues purging air from the syphon on startup. If someone has a bunch of 90’s in there plumbing or other things to make it harder to purge the air from the syphon is usually the only time it’s a issue. What happens is the open channel takes on water before there is enough pressure for the syphon to purge the air. So by raising the open channel it creates more pressure to purge the air from the syphon. That isn’t your issue. If your return pump is made to be a submersible or to use exterior like a bunch of pumps that are out now u could attach a piece of pipe to essentially lower the input of the pump to where it sucks water from the bottom of the return section. U could also try raising the returns inside of the tank so u don’t drain as much water from the tank when u turn the return off. U would drain as much water to the sump but the return section should stay full. That way u don’t have to pump as much water back into the tank on startup. Exterior or ghost type boxes is when the height differences between the syphon & open channel come into play. The hieght of the open channel standpipe dictates where u want to set the water level inside of the box. On a interior box it doesn’t matter because it is the bulkhead hieght that dictates the water level & that is going to be wherever it is drilled in the tank. Last edited by Lsufan; 12/04/2018 at 11:12 PM.

12/05/2018, 02:49 PM	#6
YYCReefer Registered Member Join Date: May 2018 Location: Calgary, Canada Posts: 14	The reason I'm fixated on the emergency line is that the original design stated that it was normal for the emergency to carry water on startup and mine does not. Not by a long shot. My return area is not huge, its' true but I'm confident that a little tweaking of the standpipes should get enough water back to the sump in time to avoid cavitation. I might also look at a 90° elbow on the return pump intake to give me a little more cushion. __________________ - Mark

12/05/2018, 06:23 PM	#7
mcgyvr Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 20,050	Dont be fixated on that statement. Its not a requirement at all and changing it may have no effect on your issue... Mine doesnt carry water during startup... __________________ Who me?

12/05/2018, 07:28 PM	#8
Lsufan Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Baton Rouge Posts: 1,410	From the first post it sounds like u have a internal overflow box with a back drilled tank. If so then the emergency really only needs to be a 90 facing up. U shouldn’t extend it any higher with a piece of pipe in the 90. If that is what u have then u can’t lower it any. If u have a piece of pipe in the 90 to raise it,remove the piece of pipe & leave the 90. I guess I’m a little confused on the type of overflow u have. It sounded like a internal c2c but then u mention standpipes & back drilled tank with a c2c box doesn’t have standpipes. The 90’s go straight into the bulkhead, so it is the bulkheads that actually determine the heights.

12/05/2018, 08:35 PM	#10
Lsufan Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Baton Rouge Posts: 1,410	I didn’t see your post before mine mentioning u had a bottom drilled tank. U could try lowering the syphon but I don’t think it will make a big difference. Lowering the syphon may make it purge the air quicker so the water doesn’t build up as much on startup. It will also help it not be so finicky on the adjustments. I still think your best bet is to attach a 90 to the return pump so it pulls water from the bottom of your return section.