Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[sleepydoc]

My setup is very close to Bean's setup. 1" ABS bulkheads, 1 ½" sanitary Tees, 1 ¼" elbows inside the tank. I chose 1 ¼" simply to save a bit of room.

I am running right about 1000 gph without any problem at all. As I mentioned above, bean was running 2000 GPH, so yeah, 1" bulkheads would be fine. I don't know what the maximum flow would be with 1" bulkheads. 1" schedule 40 PVC pipe with a 4' drop will theoretically flow about 2500 gph. Coach - I wouldn't be at all surprised if you could get 3000 GPH with 1" bulkheads and 1.5" pipe after the bulkheads but it might be pushing it.

Uncle has set up more of these systems than I have and probably has a better idea about flows if he's around.

[Rybren]

Originally Posted by oval291

Having given this some thought I would like 1000 to 1200 gph flow....based on what you have stated I am assuming three i inch inch bulk heads should work?

I'm running about that much flow with three 1" bulkheads. Like Bean's original design, I upped the pipe to 1 1/2" after the bulkhead.

Here's a link to Bean's flow calculator

http://www.beananimal.com/articles/h...-aquarist.aspx

[Coach Sharp]

Couple of follow-up questions on the BeanAnimal Design:

- Just curious....on the Siphon drainpipe and the Emergency drainpipe, why the use of the Sanitary Tee vs. an Elbow? I see why the Tee / Cap is necessary to construct the Open Standpipe in order to add the airline connection; but is it necessary to have the Tee for the Siphon and Emergency pipes? Is this for cleaning purposes?

- What's the difference between a Sanitary Tee and a regular Tee...and does the BeanAnimal setup require the Sanitary Tee vs. a regular Tee?

- Regarding the John Guest adapter that gets screwed into the top of the Open Standpipe cap...what diameter John Guest fitting is recommended? The 3/8" BPT version or the 1/4" mini NPTF version? Recommendations on how best to tap the threads? They have drill bits that form a NPTF thread?

- When starting up the BeanAnimal system for the first time, do you start with Siphon drainpipe valve wide-open and then reduce the flow gradually once the siphon begins...or do you start it with the valve restricted and then gradually open up the valve to get the optimum flow in the Open Drainpipe?

Thanks again everyone!

[Rybren]

Originally Posted by Coach Sharp

Couple of follow-up questions on the BeanAnimal Design:

- Just curious....on the Siphon drainpipe and the Emergency drainpipe, why the use of the Sanitary Tee vs. an Elbow? I see why the Tee / Cap is necessary to construct the Open Standpipe in order to add the airline connection; but is it necessary to have the Tee for the Siphon and Emergency pipes? Is this for cleaning purposes? They are not absolutely required. Yes, they are for cleaning

- What's the difference between a Sanitary Tee and a regular Tee...and does the BeanAnimal setup require the Sanitary Tee vs. a regular Tee? A sanitary T has a curve to the side port. I use a regular T

- Regarding the John Guest adapter that gets screwed into the top of the Open Standpipe cap...what diameter John Guest fitting is recommended? The 3/8" BPT version or the 1/4" mini NPTF version? Recommendations on how best to tap the threads? They have drill bits that form a NPTF thread? I'm not sure, but I use a 3/8" and tapped it with a bolt.

- When starting up the BeanAnimal system for the first time, do you start with Siphon drainpipe valve wide-open and then reduce the flow gradually once the siphon begins...or do you start it with the valve restricted and then gradually open up the valve to get the optimum flow in the Open Drainpipe? Start with the siphon valve wide open. Gradually start closing it until the water level is about mid-point on the siphon elbow. Wait a bit for the system to settle. If there are still a lot of bubbles coming out of the OC, then open the valve a tad. If using a ball valve, it can be tricky to find the sweet spot

Thanks again everyone!

[Coach Sharp]

Thanks Rybren...very helpful!

Couple of follow-ups if you don't mind:

-I'm not very familiar with the John Guest fittings. Can I attach regular air line tubing to it.....or some special type of flexible tubing? I didn't see any flex tubing on the John Guest site....only rigid pipe?

- Regarding startup, when you say bubbles coming out of the OC....you mean the Open Channel elbow in the OverFlow...or out the OC drain pipe emerged in the sump?

- So, you recommend a Gate Valve on the Siphon standpipes vs. a Ball Valve...or would one of the CPEX ball valve form BRS do ok?

Thanks again!!!

[sleepydoc]

The John Guest fittings are made for polyethylene tubing, similar to what probably came with your RO filter.

For startrup, when first adjusting the system, you'll see bubbles coming out of the siphon channel until all the air is purged, at which point it is a true siphon. If there are bubbles coming out of the open channel at this point then you have too much water running through the open channel; open up the siphon valve slightly and let it settle again.

Definitely get a gate valve. Even with a good quality ball valve it will be hard to fine tune it properly.

To follow up on your question regarding the sanitary Tee, as Rybren said, sanitary Tees have a sweep. Bean used a sanitary tee thinking it would reduce turbulence. Sanitary tees DWV fittings and not available in 1" sizes. 1.25" sanitary tees are technically available but are very difficult to find. People have used regular Tees without issue.

[Ted_C]

for the john guest fitting in the top - I just used hot-glue to seal and secure the john guest fitting to the pvc cap - being careful to not obstruct the air pathway to the fitting.

[Coach Sharp]

Thanks again everyone! Sorry to be so dense...but when you say there will be bubbles coming out of the siphon channel..you mean out of the siphon elbow in the OverFlow Box...or out the other end of the siphon pipe that is dumping water into the sump? Guess I'm having a hard time understanding how bubbles could be coming OUT of the siphon when it is sucking water IN from the OverFlow box?

Again, appreciate the help guys!

[Rybren]

Air bubbles will be coming out of the sump ends of both the siphon and Open Channel pipes. When the system first starts, the pipes will only have air in them. As the water starts to flow, it will begin to push the air out and you will have a mix of air and water coming out of the pipes. Once all of the air is purged from the siphon line, there will be no more bubbles. At this point, if there are still bubbles coming out of the OC pipe, then you need to slightly open the valve on the siphon.

[Coach Sharp]

Thanks Rybren! What do you use to clip the open end of the curved airline tubing to the inside of the OverFlow Box? Or maybe clip it to the top edge of the upturned Emergency Standpipe...so airline opening is just above the opening of the Emergency Pipe...but below the high-water mark of the OverFlow Box?

[sleepydoc]

Originally Posted by Coach Sharp

Thanks Rybren! What do you use to clip the open end of the curved airline tubing to the inside of the OverFlow Box? Or maybe clip it to the top edge of the upturned Emergency Standpipe...so airline opening is just above the opening of the Emergency Pipe...but below the high-water mark of the OverFlow Box?

Without trying to be glib, whatever works. I have an acrylic cover over the overflow portion of my tank. I drilled a hole in it and added an elbow to the open channel air line. The elbow rests on the acrylic with a short piece extending down to the right height. You can find tubing holders that clamp to the side of the tank. Duct tape would probably work too.

[oval291]

Originally Posted by Rybren

I'm running about that much flow with three 1" bulkheads. Like Bean's original design, I upped the pipe to 1 1/2" after the bulkhead.

Here's a link to Bean's flow calculator

http://www.beananimal.com/articles/h...-aquarist.aspx

Thanks I am thinking about just using i inch PVC no upping 1 1/2.

[exsequor]

Build it like how ESHOPPS builds theirs.

I run a dual tube 1200 gph per tube Eshopps overflow that I purchased brand new for my 150. It's great/. Been through well over 10 power outages and never had a problem with it holding a siphon once power kicks back on.

[Coach Sharp]

Thanks again everyone for all the terrific suggestions! The tank should arrive in about a month...and then all the plumbing fun will begin! Make it a Blessed Day!

[October Sky]

Looking for some help. How could I go from this overflow box (Modular Marine 1200gph) to a bean animal setup?

The largest problems I see are size of drains (3/4 inch). I cannot find a 3/4 "trap" anywhere. I could do 2 90 degree elbows, which seems to work. But I'm not certain as I've never seen that in an external box. I've seen 1.5" but I guess my question is will 3/4 inch work (although a 1200 gph box, this is a 40b, so it's not going to be near that level).

[sleepydoc]

That should work, assuming you have room in the box for the plumbing. One issue with such setups is the depth of the water in the box. If you have the siphon set up as just an open pipe at the floor of the box, it can cause a vortex and entrain air, depending on the depth/flow. Also, a ¾" open channel won't be able to handle much flow silently

[Coach Sharp]

Sleepdoc, would you mind explaining what's a vortex, what causes it..and how best to avoid it with the BeanAnimal design?

Thanks!

[October Sky]

Originally Posted by sleepydoc

Also, a ¾" open channel won't be able to handle much flow silently

Is there anything that can be done to remedy this? Maybe a pipe with a bunch of holes in it? Maybe a pipe cut long ways (like a toothed weir)? Anything?

[sleepydoc]

Originally Posted by Coach Sharp

Sleepdoc, would you mind explaining what's a vortex, what causes it..and how best to avoid it with the BeanAnimal design?

Thanks!

The little 'tornado' of air that comes down from the surface as water is being drained. It's not the bean animal design rather just physics. A function of the distance from the surface and the flow through the drain. Using a downturned elbow so the water is being drawn from the bottom will help if you have room.

Originally Posted by October Sky

Is there anything that can be done to remedy this? Maybe a pipe with a bunch of holes in it? Maybe a pipe cut long ways (like a toothed weir)? Anything?

The issue is the physics of a Durso standpipe. It tries to have a ring of water flowing around the outside with air in the middle. If the ring gets too thick it starts to gurgle. ¾" PVC has an inner diameter of just over ¾" That's not a ton of room for both air and water to flow.

THe overflow will still work, it just may not be totally quiet. The Bean animal design depends on the open channel to have a range of flows which allows it to remain silent despite changes in flow in the siphon channel. A small pipe simply makes that range small.

I would go ahead and set it up an see if you're happy with it. The options are increasing the size of the pipe below the bulkhead or putting in a bigger bulkhead (if feasible,) but if you're happy then there's no need.

[October Sky]

Originally Posted by sleepydoc

The little 'tornado' of air that comes down from the surface as water is being drained. It's not the bean animal design rather just physics. A function of the distance from the surface and the flow through the drain. Using a downturned elbow so the water is being drawn from the bottom will help if you have room.



The issue is the physics of a Durso standpipe. It tries to have a ring of water flowing around the outside with air in the middle. If the ring gets too thick it starts to gurgle. ¾" PVC has an inner diameter of just over ¾" That's not a ton of room for both air and water to flow.

THe overflow will still work, it just may not be totally quiet. The Bean animal design depends on the open channel to have a range of flows which allows it to remain silent despite changes in flow in the siphon channel. A small pipe simply makes that range small.

I would go ahead and set it up an see if you're happy with it. The options are increasing the size of the pipe below the bulkhead or putting in a bigger bulkhead (if feasible,) but if you're happy then there's no need.

Could I do a downward turned elbow? I think there's enough room for that if I run the emergency straight pipe in the middle. Alternatively, and I'm just spitballing here. Could I run a larger pipe just above the uniseal. Meaning 3/4 at and below the uniseal, but something like 1" above. It could allow more surface area for air/water. It could also do nothing, I'm certainly a complete and utter newbie at this.

[Rybren]

I think that you'd be better off with a larger pipe below. I'm fairly certain that it would be quieter than the reverse. The bottleneck for flow would still be the 3/4" bulkhead.

And yes, using a downward turned elbow is what most folks use.

[October Sky]

Thanks for all the help, I actually placed my order then relized that 3/4 might be too small. I contacted them and changed it to 1" so I'm in better shape.

[rwgarrison]

Thanks for all the help (previous couple of pages of this thread). I drilled a third hole and used the "oddball" hole for an emergency drain. It is working like a charm. Completely silent with full c2c overflow.

I had to get bigger pump than the one I was given. The original pump took hours to get to full siphon. The new pump take s 2-3 minutes (I'm running a DRP-6500 at 60%). I cannot hear the new pump at all. Not even a little bit. The only noise I get at all in the system is a slight trickle in the sump itself, and with the doors on the stand closed, even that is hard to hear.

[GQsmooth]

Doing my plumbing at the moment, I have a few questions.

Does open channel line drain to the same chamber as the full siphon? (Before the filter socks) And I assume emergency line would go to skimmer section?

Also, how far do we want these lines into the water?

[sleepydoc]

In general yes, but they don't have to. At steady state, the open channel and siphon channel will carry all the water, so if you want all the water going through the filter socks then you need to place them before. There's no reason you couldn't have them draining to different chambers, however.

Something else to keep in mind is that the open channel may generate some bubbles, if that's an issue to you.

The emergency can drain wherever you like. Preferably not onto the floor, though.

As far as the depth goes, most people have the ends of the pipes about ¾"~1" below the surface. The further they are below the surface, the more difficult it will be for the siphon channel to purge the air at startup.