Zach's 120 Gallon Reef Resurgence

[zachxlutz]

Originally Posted by goldnlovr

You have a beautiful tank

Thanks! I'm hoping I can get it back to healthy once again!

Originally Posted by reefmutt

Agreed..

Glad to hear you've stepped back a bit and will let things settle down on heir own..
Careful with the acropower right now.. it'll probably do more for the nuisance algae than the corals.
This is a tricky time for the corals because they are stressed (drop in ca/alk demand) and the algea is happy. Happy things will consume the food more readily than the stressed things..
Be prepared to have some unhappy corals.
I hope the non-intervention intervention helps!

Hmm... Maybe I'll scrap the aminos idea and hold off until this passes. I know nothing happens over night but damn... I want this stuff gone!

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

Sorry about your troubles, zachxlutz. I was so psyched that you were able to avoid a big algae bloom, in the earlier phase of your tank. With this outbreak, I'm now wondering if it was a mistake to suppress algae during the formative stage. The maturation process may need to progress 'unchecked', so Mother Nature can do her thing, with bacteria and algae. The use of Vibrant may have just kicked the can down the road. I wholeheartedly agree. I'm not sure

Have you confirmed dinoflagellates?

One thing that puzzles me is your contention that phosphate has declined in your tank. You feed your fish well and you weren't running phosphate media, so how can it be that your tank is doing the opposite of everyone else's? Could it be that this brown stuff is the CAUSE of declining levels, rather than the RESULT? It's quite normal for phosphate levels to be near zero during an algae bloom. The phosphate is IN the algae.

This brings to mind an old point I made about the challenges of testing. I was in the middle of a three month cyano battle, and I didn't bother testing, to a lot of guys' consternation. My point was that I could test my water and it very well could show very low phosphate, so from testing alone, I would conclude that I needed to dose phosphate. Two years later and here you are in exactly that situation!

I seriously doubt you need to dose phosphate, unless you are trying to establish a diverse algae population, which may be a good idea, come to think of it. But your liberal feeding should do the trick. The only thing out of whack is the algae-feeding nutrients, I think. Ironic that your excellent control of parameters could hurt you-not cool! What a bummer if Vibrant is the cause. Maybe it's better for a mature tank that gets a bloom, rather than a young tank, still maturing.

I think you've got the right strategy to step back and see what nature wants to do for a while. Bring in some new crew members to fill out your ecosystem and things should settle down.

Best of luck, Buddy!

I'm leaning towards thinking this all stems from the strongest algae/bacteria that the Vibrant couldn't combat and it's now taken the low phosphate situation in the tank and taken off with it. I believe it probably would have laid dormant if it was being outcompeted by other more controllable algaes.

I stripped the water in the tank bare from the get go. I was running GFO and changing it out constantly, targeting that 0 phosphate... and succeeding. The tank was a barren wasteland for the first 4 months of the tank. I haven't run any since November. The tank was started in September. I started the KNO3 dosing in early December and the Vibrant shortly after that, as I was dealing with some GHA on the back glass and plastic bits in the tank. If I could go back again and start over, I never would have used the Vibrant or only used it to get it under control and then backed off but I continued dosing as I saw no ill effects until this started popping up.

For the record, I was asked to take some of the stuff out of the tank and swirl it around in a container to see if it reconstituted. It seems like it did. It seemed to form pillar like structures within the container within the first 10 minutes or so.

Immediately after swirling the water around and agitating it with a baster:


10 minutes or so later, you can see how it's reconstituted and formed pillars and stringy sections:


Between seeing the stuff reconstitute and seeing how it covers everything and talking with some knowledgeable people, I believe I have a form of dinoflagellate ostreopsis which I should be able to knock out with a nice small increase in phosphates and allowing some other more controllable algaes to overtake and outcompete.

[zachxlutz]

5 minute timelapse of the stuff reconstituting.

[Michael Hoaster]

It sounds like you're getting it figured out.

I know nothing about dinoflagellates. Algae or bacteria? Are they unique in some way, or just another algae? So they can grow in a low phosphate environment, outcompeting others that need more phosphate?

Hopefully, your gorgeous corals will get through this unscathed. Now is the hard part-doing nothing and just waiting!

[Heuristic]

That looks like dinoflagellates to me, I just realized my problem was I was running a phosphate remover when I really didn't need to be. They thrive in environments that are low in phosphate. Are you growing Chaeto? how is it's growth?

[zachxlutz]

Update:

Crossing my fingers over here. I think I'm making some progress. It looks like the dinoflagellates are slowing down the spreading and possibly receding a bit. I've only been blowing it off of the corals and a little bit here and there when it's impeding on a coral. Additionally, I've been heavily feeding the tank and actively adding KNO3 to keep the nitrates at +/- 3 ppm. The tank is currently consuming about 1.5 ppm of NO3 every day. I think what's happening is the extra feeding is increasing the available phosphates and this is promoting desirable algal and coral growth, thus consuming both NO3 and PO4 in the process and hopefully outcompeting the dinoflagellates as a side effect. I've been tracking the phosphates daily and they are raising and holding steady at about 0.03 +/- 0.02. If I notice the phosphates dropping I'll just throw an extra couple pinches of food or an extra mysis cube. I see a few very small patches of fluffy turf type algae pop up underneath the stringy brown dinoflagellates in some nooks and crannies of the liverock. I think that's encouraging. I can add more snails to deal with that if the Foxface doesn't eat it up first. The macros in the sump seem to be growing and driving up the pH trend, it had been suppressed by about -.1 for the last few weeks. I've also had my calcium and alkalinity dosing off throughout this ordeal as consumption seemed to stop. It's been almost steady for a few weeks now but I think it's finally dropping. This would, in my opinion, indicate that the coral are kicking back into growth mode and consuming alkalinity. I'll continue to monitor and bring dosing back online as needed. One thing I have noticed is there is hardly any of the dinoflagellates in the sump. There is some green looking stuff on the heaters in the return chamber but that's been there for months and hasn't really done much, I assume it's a harmless cyano. I haven't dosed any Vibrant in 17 days. I really hope the bacteria from it are reaching their end of life and it's effects on the system will continue to diminish over time.

It's hard to discern in photos so I don't really have any to post but I'll keep updating this thread as I battle this nightmare.

[Heuristic]

Originally Posted by zachxlutz

I think what's happening is the extra feeding is increasing the available phosphates and this is promoting desirable algal and coral growth, thus consuming both NO3 and PO4 in the process and hopefully outcompeting the dinoflagellates as a side effect.

That's exactly the goal. I'm seeing similar results

[Michael Hoaster]

That's great news! Thanks for sharing, in this difficult time. I've already learned a few things!

That sucks that LOW phosphates can lead to algae. Damned if you do, damned if you don't…

What do you attribute the lower amounts of dinos in the sump? Less light?

Keep us posted!

[zachxlutz]

FTS 06/15/2017:


It's been about three weeks since I updated this thread so I figured it was time for a quick run-down of what's been going on with the tank and how the battle with dinoflagellates is going.

I was kidding myself thinking that just additional feeding was helping with the dinos. I kept feeding and feeding and checking with the Hannah Phosphorus ULR checker and was consistently seeing 0 or 1. ZERO PHOSPHATES. ZILCH.

I finally bit the bullet and bought some AquaVitro Activate phosphorus additive and I've been dosing up to .1 every day for the last couple of days and this time... this time I think I see a decrease in the dinos. It seems like the tank is soaking up about 1 ppm NO3 and .05 ppm PO4 daily. I definitely see some more polyp extension and LOTS of growth in the refugium. I'm really hoping this is the path I need to keep following. What really needs to happen is the addition of a few more fish to more naturally increase the bio-load so I can move away from having to dose both nitrates and phosphates.

Last night I added 2 packs of 5280 pods from algaebarn.com and refreshed my CUC with 100 Dwarf Ceriths, 23 Nassarius vibex, 38 Florida Ceriths, 25 Assorted Hermits, 25 Nerites and 1 Fighting Conch.

Florida Fighting Conch (2.5-3" long):


I'm also starting a dosing regimen of live phytoplankton daily to help feed the zooplankton which, hopefully, are playing a role in helping to diminish the dinoflagellates.

Alk has bottomed out at 8.1 for the last 3 weeks with no dosing. I'm seeing slight growth in the coral, just not enough to soak up the alkalinity in the water and require dosing. I'll just keep the calcium and alkalinity dosers off until I see the need to turn them back on.

The refugium is packed with red and green macros that are growing like crazy and proving to be quite the breeding ground for pods, worms and all sorts of tiny little zooplankton. I need to trim it back, but I hate to pull it out, it's looking really neat.

[Michael Hoaster]

Glad to hear you're on the road to recovery. It still blows my mind your tank is phosphate limited.

[reefmutt]

+1
Great plan of action!
Good luck with it.

[zachxlutz]

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

Glad to hear you're on the road to recovery. It still blows my mind your tank is phosphate limited.

Right? Things are looking better and better every day with the phosphate dosing!

Originally Posted by reefmutt

+1
Great plan of action!
Good luck with it.

Thanks!

[Crack1sWak]

Looks like the tank is coming along. Can't see where it ends up. Will be following to see where this tank goes.

[zachxlutz]

Originally Posted by Crack1sWak

Looks like the tank is coming along. Can't see where it ends up. Will be following to see where this tank goes.

Thanks! I'll try and post up some pictures in the upcoming days.

[zachxlutz]

Quick photo for you guys... This Pink Sand Dollar Montipora (maybe porites?) has had some serious growth and polyp extension lately!

[BigDave]

Damn son! I think I finally found a happy place for my blastimossa too. Can't wait to see if it starts taking off.

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk

[Crack1sWak]

That is some great polyp extension. Glad to see success.

[reefmutt]

Agreed! That's a happy coral.

[zachxlutz]

Quick and dirty FTS:



Things are looking MUCH better lately.

DINO BATTLE: The dinoflagellates have all but faded and fade more and more every day, although a few patches of cyano have popped up but seem to come and go... Not a problem for now. The NO3 and PO4 levels are, fingers crossed, starting to hold steady at 2-5 ppm and .06-.07. I'll have to dose, I'm sure, but the tank is starting to find equilibrium.

CORAL: I mounted up a few of the frags that were still on the frag rack a few days ago. Pretty happy with the coral placement so far. NEED MORE! The corals are all looking happy with color and polyp extension returning after our battle with the dinos.

DOSING: I've been dosing 40 ml live phytoplankton daily along with 4 ml of Acropower. Nothing else is going in the tank but food at this point. The coral are clearly growing, it's evident but the system just isn't using any appreciable amount of alkalinity or calcium. Still holding off for the alk to drop below 8 to start dosing.

LIGHTING: After watching a few of the new @Bulk Reef Supply videos and doing some more research, I decided that I would raise up the T5 fixture, as I feel like I was blasting too much PAR into the tank with my nutrient levels and it lowered my PAR readings from 500+ at the top of the liverock to around 300-400.

REFUGIUM: Growing macros like wildfire. Pods, worms, snails and all sorts of life shows up more and more. Everytime I look in the fuge (nightly... it's fun!) I see something new.

[zachxlutz]

Originally Posted by Crack1sWak

That is some great polyp extension. Glad to see success.

Originally Posted by reefmutt

Agreed! That's a happy coral.

Thanks! Finally turned a corner and things are chuggling along. Until the next issue pops up, I think it's time to sit back and enjoy.

[Crack1sWak]

As they say there is always something with a reef tank.

[zachxlutz]

Originally Posted by Crack1sWak

As they say there is always something with a reef tank.

There certainly is! It's all about mitigating issues and setting the system up for success.

[zachxlutz]

Does your system have a "copepod reactor"? Mine does!



I haven't been running any GFO in this reactor, but it's been kept online with water slowly flowing through it and it's filled to the brim with copepods! It pulls from the manifold leaving the return and dumps back into the refugium... Really neat to see!

[Michael Hoaster]

Cool beans! You're turning the corner and you've bounced back nicely. Awesome job!

[BigDave]

That copapod reactor is pretty sweet. I have a spare reactor and thought about doing something similar. I wasn't sure if I needed anything else in there, but it doesn't look like it.

Do the copepods ever make it through the foam and back to the tank? I was thinking of removing the foam too.

[zachxlutz]

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

Cool beans! You're turning the corner and you've bounced back nicely. Awesome job!

I'm pretty happy with where the tank is heading, currently. I hope to pick up some new coral soon to fill in some more of the bare spots on the rock structure. It's still way too bare for my likings.

Originally Posted by BigDave

That copepod reactor is pretty sweet. I have a spare reactor and thought about doing something similar. I wasn't sure if I needed anything else in there, but it doesn't look like it.

Do the copepods ever make it through the foam and back to the tank? I was thinking of removing the foam too.

Honestly, I didn't do this on purpose and I'm sure some of them make it through the filter pad and back into the refugium... If I was doing it on purpose, I'd run the reactor line back up into the display and see if I couldn't provide a steady stream of copepods to the display. There are SO many amphipods and copepods and all sorts of zooplankton living in the refugium and the display, I think these guys just found a safe haven and are enjoying the reprieve from being hunted by my leopard wrasses.