Caribbean Biotope Seagrass Tank

[JZinCO]

My first thought was noooooo. But, I'm excited to see what happens. Tell us what you're thinking. What's going to happen to your existing lifestock, live sand, etc?

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

Hold on a second! I'm not quitting. Is that what it sounded like? Not at all. I just need to break the tank down and fix some things.

By the way, thanks for the kind words, Subsea!

I've just reached a point where it looks like the best option is to restart the tank, so I can make some changes that would be impossible to do while it's up and running. I would imagine many of us have gotten to this point. It's that time when you look at your tank and see things you wish you could change, but you put them off, so you don't upset the balance you've worked hard to achieve. So they kind of pile up. Now I've reached that point where I'm ready to make those changes.

One thing I've found in this hobby is that it's very difficult to get everything right the first time. So you make your best effort, and live with it for awhile. In that time you can see where improvements could be made, that you'd never think of in the initial planning. Then, when you're ready, you go back and do it again, and do it righter!

In the last six months, I made major changes in a 25 year old setup. The easiest and probably the most important for long term was turning out the lights in 30G mud macro refugium to focus on cryptic sponges. The most difficult was syphoning down a twenty five year old 6” Jaubert Plenum sandbed to a depth of 2”.

Happy trails,

[Michael Hoaster]

I'm still fleshing out the plan, but here are some of the things I want to do:

First, there are some pests I want to get rid of. The aiptasia anemones and the dinoflagellates are obvious, but even some of the macros, namely, the red and black grasilaria have become pests. These two plants have become an encrusting turf that has blanketed way too much real estate. I don't like the look and they're a pain to remove, so they gotta go!

I'm even considering the mini strombus snails. These guys reproduce prolifically and are great at keeping macros and even the finer-bladed seagrasses clean. So it seems insane to get rid of them. I probably won't. But they do have a downside. Any new macro I introduce has only a 50% chance of survival, thanks to these guys. They're voracious! Since I already have another reproducing snail that doesn't go after macros (the Ceriths) I'm considering it. Maybe I should just thin their population. I guess I could sell some.

I hope to keep all livestock going for the restart. This includes the live sand. I've got a ton of detrivores I want to keep. The complication is the dinos. It doesn't appear that mine are sand dwellers, but I do want to avoid bringing them along, so I'm still thinking on this. I may try to remove worms and then clean the sand, or possibly even replace it with new sand. Not sure yet. The live rock I'm afraid will have to be sacrificed to insure no aiptasias survive. It's only ten pounds, so it's not a huge sacrifice. I will likely lose all my encrusting sponges though. Maybe I can save some fragments. I ran the tank with no live rock for months before I added it for biodiversity. I'll probably replace it with new live rock at some point.

I should be able to keep the fish and snails in the QTs.

Keeping the shoal grass and macros alive may be a challenge, but I've got some ideas. The trick will be to make sure they are completely cleaned of aiptasias and dinos. I will be looking into methods for cleaning/disinfecting plants.

This brings me to the practice of quarantining all new additions to the tank. This will now include plants, rock, everything. I'll throw them in QT and observe them for awhile, to make sure no uninvited guests are present. This demands a new level of patience, but I'm getting used to it, and seeing how NOT quarantining has affected my tank is plenty of incentive!

That just about covers the living elements, though I'm sure I'll think of more. Next up will be system changes I want to make.

[vlangel]

Wow Michael, I did not really see this coming but I understand why you've come to this place. It still makes me feel kind of sad to see it go, although I will be definitely following your reboot.

[Michael Hoaster]

Thanks, vlangel!

It's really not that big a deal. The tank will look pretty much the same as before. No big changes, really. More like several small changes that need to get done, and I need to take it down to do them. As I said, some things that bugged me have just been piling up, so I think this is the best way forward.

I'll post the system changes shortly.

[sam.basye]

I think a tank refreshing sounds like a great idea.

It’s great to see the tank flourish and fill out after 3 years, but you start noticing little things you wish you had changed along the way.

Looking forward to what you have in store for v2.0!

[Michael Hoaster]

Thanks Sam!

I went back and read my post. It did sound like a big farewell. My bad. I think I was nostalgic after reading through my thread. I was trying to find the tank start date, and I was moved by all the great posts.

As for the tank fixes:

I need to drain and disinfect the tank to get rid of the aiptasias and dinos and undesirable macros.

While it's empty I can do a few other things. The floor has sagged a bit under the stand, making the tank un-level. I will jack it back up to get everything level again.

Probably the biggest mistake I made when building the tank was to position the overflow-turned refugium about two inches too high. This forced me to run the water level almost up to the euro bracing.

I'd like to lower the water level, so I need to lower the overflow, so it can continue to function as an in-tank refugium. Rather than trying to detach it from the back wall and mangling the foam wall in the process, I'll just take a jigsaw to it. This will also require me to lower the fake root, so that the powerhead hidden within stays below the surface. The fake root is beginning to show its age. One of the roots has a crack in it, and the other two have been coming loose lately. So it needs some work. Yay!

As some have pointed out, foaming the back wall was all good, but why didn't I also foam the left-end, flow-through wall as well? My excuse was that I didn't want to impede flow. The more I've thought about it, the more I think it can be done, with little impediment. So, I have a small, fake wall project to look forward to. Double yay!

And there's one more. I need to polish out the scratches in the acrylic. I've noticed a lot of them when going through photos. They're distracting! Some say they will never have an acrylic tank for this reason, but I have found glass tanks to be almost as easily scratched. And there's no fixing them. Plus acrylic tanks are so easy to mod. I have drilled and sawed to my heart's content!

I have a few other ideas I'm considering as well. I'd like to tackle as many as I can, so I can give myself another few years for more stuff to pile up!

I've noticed since I replaced the MH bulb, pretty much all of the red macros have 'bleached out'. I also think it may help to keep the water cooler if I raised the light up higher from the surface. But this would expand the light's footprint. I think these related issues are going to require a multifaceted approach. Maybe I raise the light, then bend the reflector in, to limit the light spread, and then maybe even extend the DSB to take advantage of the bright light available, that's too bright for the reds. This would shrink the available space for macros, but I'll still have plenty of room on the fake wall. Plus I intend to be very selective in my future macro choices. There will be fewer reds. I had always intended the DSB to fake root ratio to be a two thirds to one third proportional relationship. They ended up being almost half and half. Also, I noticed over time that the reds spread out too much for my taste. I'd prefer most of the plant coverage to be green, with just a splash of red.

I think I could lengthen the DSB planter a little, fairly easily. I'll just need to make sure it meshes with the fake roots. Maybe one reaches into the DSB. Could be cool.

I may also return the UV sterilizer back into the plumbing scheme.

I'll probably think of more stuff to do, but that's all I can think of for now. I hope this makes sense of my re-do idea.

Cheers!

[Subsea]

Michael
Keep it coming. Yes, on the UV. Several macro cultivation manuals I read of recent, all outline sterilization. While I have had a Jaubert Plenum dsb for 25years, I would not recommend again due to large substrate size. While I have never had a dsb as described by Dr Ron, I see little need to have depth, unless you have burrowing fish that require > 2” of substrate. In that case, a small area could be maintained in that manner or a plastic container of that depth.

http://www.ronshimek.com/deep_sand_beds.html

Because of the destruction of sand bed janitors by a Melanarious Wrasse over an 18 month period, I vacuumed a 6” deep sandbed down to < 2” in places. Sandbed was 25 years.

[McPuff]

Michael, I think you've made the right decision... and I'm basing this entirely by the way you've worded your posts. There are many things that you'd like to change on your system that would be impossible without taking it all down. This is something I have considered in the past (my 120 for example). To be honest, I may have let it go for far longer had I not switched everything over to the 300. That truly gave me a chance to do the things I really wanted (e.g., created a custom rock scape, add the fish I desired, etc.). Sure, there have been a number of tweaks to the system over the past 15 months. But I was able to spend a couple months solidly planning the transition and future of the new system. For the most part, I've stuck to the plan and not because I'm stubborn, but because it was/is a solid plan for me. It represents my true desire. This has also given me a lot of patience to do things the right way. So I totally understand where you're coming from and look forward to the next progression of your system... maybe start a new thread before this one splits? :0)

[Michael Hoaster]

Thanks Subsea and McPuff!

I was wondering if I should start a new thread. Concept-wise, I'm not making a big change. At what point do they split a thread?

[SaltySully]

I would start a new thread, new "tank" new story.

Sent from my LGMS428 using Tapatalk

[Michael Hoaster]

Thanks SaltySully! And thanks everyone for the encouraging words!

So, for now, I'm trying to get all my ducks in a row, and formulate a plan. With so many things to do, I need a solid timeline of what gets done, and in what order.

Maybe the first thing I do is reposition the light, before I drain the tank. Since the light foot print (spread?) is critical, I need to see it with water in the tank. I could polish the acrylic with water in the tank as well, but I want to get it really good, all the way down in front, where a lot of pics are taken. But I need the sand out of my way to do it, so that'll have to wait until I've drained it and removed the sand.

I also want to give myself time to think. It would be a bummer to overlook something.

Ironically, I think the dinos may be receding. I've been running charcoal, phosphate media and the UV sterilizer. The snails go after them every night on the seagrass blades and the caulerpa growth is gaining momentum. It's funny how that works. I was busting my a$$ (and back) trying to manually remove as much as I could, but it seemed like the more I did, the more there was. I got fully demoralized and gave up. Ha ha!

[Chasmodes]

I think your plan sounds pretty cool. I don't see it as a new tank but a new phase in your concept. That said, if you start a new thread, then I'll follow it as well. I'm looking forward to the new look also. Man, it sounds like a lot of work, but then again, your past experience with this tank should get quicker results than the last time, and more of the results that you desire too.

[Subsea]

Michael,

Consider a reverse flow undergravel filter for your sandbed substrate.

PaulB and I started reefing the same time. We both needed to turn a chapter in our lives from being in the jungles of Cambodia fighting Kamari Rouge. He was in the Air Calvary and I was an Air Force mechanic on Puff, The Magic Dragon, which supported ground troups.

When Paul returned home to Long Island, he set up 100G reef tank for 44 years using reverse flow undergravel filter. This tank was dismantled Dec 2017 when Paul moved 50 miles east. Montogue Point is the furthers east point of continental USA. Paul was 69 years old on Christmas Day. While I have not seen pictures of what his sandbed looked like after 44 years, I saw my Jaubert Plenum after 25 years. I know success when I see it. Reverse flow is easy to establish on a new startup. The initial reason for dsb was to establish denitrification. In a mature reef tank, nitrogen is in demand and inhabitants compete for it. I see no reason to export nitrogen if I need it in a 16:1 ratio with phosphate to grow biomass.

[vlangel]

Originally Posted by Subsea

Michael
Keep it coming. Yes, on the UV. Several macro cultivation manuals I read of recent, all outline sterilization. While I have had a Jaubert Plenum dsb for 25years, I would not recommend again due to large substrate size. While I have never had a dsb as described by Dr Ron, I see little need to have depth, unless you have burrowing fish that require > 2” of substrate. In that case, a small area could be maintained in that manner or a plastic container of that depth.

http://www.ronshimek.com/deep_sand_beds.html

Because of the destruction of sand bed janitors by a Melanarious Wrasse over an 18 month period, I vacuumed a 6” deep sandbed down to < 2” in places. Sandbed was 25 years.

Thanks subsea for the link on DSBs. All my tanks have had 5-6" SBs until I got seahorses. I was afraid that with the excessive bioload that a DSB would be overwhelmed but that article is making me reconsider. My prior DSBs were in the grain size he described and one was 5 years old when I tore it down and it was fresh and clean through and through. No rotten smell anywhere in it. Also interesting was the deepest part was a slightly different color. It looked like I used a different layer of sand on the bottom but I had not. I am assuming that that was from the denitrification was taking place.

Anyway, thanks for the link.

[zachxlutz]

Michael... quickly read over the last few pages of your thread and it sounds like you're heading in the right direction. It makes sense to put together an attack plan and execute it just as you want.

Did you ever get a positive ID on your dinos? If they are indeed ostreopsis, the UV should be your best bet on bringing them to their knees. If it's large cell amphidium, well... your guess is as good as mine. I still struggle with the amphidium but I've knocked the ostreopsis out of my tank with the large UV I installed. Are you running the UV directly in the tank or through the sump?

[Michael Hoaster]

Thanks Zachxlutz! The planning continues. And the thinking. The doing part hasn't started, but I'll get there.

No I never got a positive ID. Not sure that it matters. I found so much conflicting info it made my head spin. Wouldn't it be great if someone made an online calculator? You could just type in a description and symptoms, and it would tell you what species you have, and what to do about it. That would be sweet!

Mine do not appear to be the toxic kind that kill snails. It doesn't appear to grow on the sand or from the sand. It grows throughout the day, peaking at night, with lots of oxygen bubbles. When I look at the tank in the morning they are greatly reduced. The UV does appear to be lessening it, after about two weeks. I'm definitely happy about that! I was beginning to wonder if ANYTHING would work.

I don't have a sump. I have a heinous UV setup right on top of the tank, with a pump sitting elegantly in the seagrass. I'm too embarrassed to post pics of it. As part of my planned re-do, I am seriously considering reintegrating it into my closed loop plumbing, to help prevent another bloom. I hesitate because I hate the idea of it killing the free floating live organisms in my unfiltered, live water. On the other hand, it wouldn't get all of it, and benthic organisms wouldn't be affected.

[Michael Hoaster]

I still haven't decided whether to start a new thread or not. I tried to find out when threads are split. I saw one message that said "this thread was split for performance reasons". I also found one that was split at around the 250 page mark. I'm only half way there. And "performance reasons" sounds like "too many huge photos" to me.

Starting a new thread sounds fun, but I'd hate to see this one fade into oblivion. There's so much good info in here! I realize it's rather daunting to read the whole thing, but people can read as much as they want.

Right now the plan is not much different than the current setup. It's really just an evolution, with a few fixes to make it better. So I'm leaning towards just continuing on this thread.

It would be good to get some more input. I'm sure I haven't thought of everything. If you have an opinion on whether to start a new thread or not, I'd like to hear from you.

[Chasmodes]

I'd say keep this one going. The benefit to you is it is your documentation from start to finish. The benefit to me is that it's all in one place and easy to go back and research stuff. Yes, lots of good stuff in your thread... Thank you for that! But, it's your thread, your choice, and we will adapt!

[Michael Hoaster]

Thanks Kevin! That's exactly what I was thinking. If I start a new thread, this one will slip down the forum page and off, where no-one can find it.

[zachxlutz]

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

Thanks Zachxlutz! The planning continues. And the thinking. The doing part hasn't started, but I'll get there.

No I never got a positive ID. Not sure that it matters. I found so much conflicting info it made my head spin. Wouldn't it be great if someone made an online calculator? You could just type in a description and symptoms, and it would tell you what species you have, and what to do about it. That would be sweet!

Mine do not appear to be the toxic kind that kill snails. It doesn't appear to grow on the sand or from the sand. It grows throughout the day, peaking at night, with lots of oxygen bubbles. When I look at the tank in the morning they are greatly reduced. The UV does appear to be lessening it, after about two weeks. I'm definitely happy about that! I was beginning to wonder if ANYTHING would work.

I don't have a sump. I have a heinous UV setup right on top of the tank, with a pump sitting elegantly in the seagrass. I'm too embarrassed to post pics of it. As part of my planned re-do, I am seriously considering reintegrating it into my closed loop plumbing, to help prevent another bloom. I hesitate because I hate the idea of it killing the free floating live organisms in my unfiltered, live water. On the other hand, it wouldn't get all of it, and benthic organisms wouldn't be affected.

Did you see my UV setup? It was UGGGGGGLY but it worked. Pulled water directly from the display and flowed right back in.





It sounds like you are dealing with the same type I've dealt with. Ostreopsis. The UV did wonders for it. I have noticed zero negative consequences from running the UV. Once it cleared up the free swimming ostreopsis dinos, I moved it to my sump where it's a much nicer, hidden setup.

[Michael Hoaster]

Thanks for sharing that Zachxlutz. My setup is just about that ugly, but I don't have those nice reducer fittings you have. I just stuck 1/2 inch tubing into 3/4 inch, into 1 inch for supreme hideousness.

That would be a fun thread: "Show us your most hideous temporary setup"!

[zachxlutz]

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

Thanks for sharing that Zachxlutz. My setup is just about that ugly, but I don't have those nice reducer fittings you have. I just stuck 1/2 inch tubing into 3/4 inch, into 1 inch for supreme hideousness.

That would be a fun thread: "Show us your most hideous temporary setup"!

I'm sure I'd have some great photos for that!

[Chasmodes]

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

That would be a fun thread: "Show us your most hideous temporary setup"!

Originally Posted by zachxlutz

I'm sure I'd have some great photos for that!

Me too. Rather than have a light canopy, I temporarily just prop up the box that my tank lid came in on top of the tank lid to block the light because it fits perfectly. But, it's a cardboard box, ugly .

[JZinCO]

Sounds like candidates for the Ghetto Rig thread
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...625418&page=51