Lanthanum Chloride Use in a Large Reef

reefdude3749 · 05/23/2015, 07:51 AM

Thanks for looking at my post...The reason for my post is to get advice on if my proposed way to run lanthanum chloride makes sense and any pitfalls.

I have been reading a lot of the forums here on RC about the use of lanthanum chloride (LC) to reduce phosphates. My main driver for using LC is that with my size of water volume (about 800 gallons with sump), the use of GFO is a bit of a PIA and costly...and I think that my rock/substrate may have absorbed some phosphate as it is very difficult for me to get below a 0.06 ppm reading on the high end Hanna phosphate meters. I also have some nuisance cyano and a little green tint/algae here and there and on the sides of my tank that i do not clean regularly...my thought is to use LC to get to consistent low phosphate readings and then primarily run GFO.

My overflows (2) drain into the first section of my sump. My skimmer is fed from this first section of my sump and is also returned to the same section of my sump. The overflow from this first sump section then traverses a weir and goes through three filter socks (would use 10u socks during LC drip) before reaching the next section of my sump where it is returned to my DT.

My thought about how to run LC in my system is to drip the diluted LC into my overflow and let the mixing/contact take place in my overflow piping, skimmer (dual Beckett) and first section of my sump. The expectation is that the skimmer and/or socks will remove the precipitate and hence lower my phosphates. Any suggestions or concerns?

Also...I have ready about the precipitate being "sticky"...are there any concerns about the precipitate messing up my piping or skimmer or otherwise messing up my system?

Thank you in advance for any advice and guidance on this application of LC.

ReefDude

dkeller_nc · 05/23/2015, 08:49 AM

My first thought is that 0.06 ppm of phosphate is already pretty close to what most reefers think is a good value. Presuming your test results are reasonably accurate, it should be pretty easy to keep the tank water at or below this level with high-capacity GFO media. Regenerating it yourself will drastically lower the cost of using it - it's as easy as just soaking it in a lye solution on your kitchen counter.

With respect to LaCl use, I'd suggest that you'd want to drip the solution directly into one of your filter socks. The reaction of lanthanum with orthophosphate to form an insoluble precipitate is nearly instantaneous, and if it were my tank, I'd want to be absolutely sure that I captured all of the precipitate, and I'd also want to be absolutely sure that phosphate remained in excess in the tank water so that no soluble lanthanum escaped the sump.

Do you have any zebrasoma tangs in this tank? This genus is reported to be exceptionally sensitive to lanthanum, and given the relatively easy possibility of either not capturing all of the lanthanum precipitate or of adding enough lanthanum chloride so that soluble lanthanum remains in the tank water, I'd ditch the idea of using it and stick with GFO, especially considering your already low phosphate concentration.

jay13 · 05/23/2015, 09:05 AM

I agree with the above. I used lanthanum on my 180 with a 200 gallon total water volume and it worked. I will stress the point of doing small amounts very slowly. When i did it i dripped it into the top of my durso so it mixed all the way down the pipe and into a filter sock. I assume you have an algae problem that is spurring this move? Otherwise forgetchasing numbers.

bertoni · 05/23/2015, 11:56 AM

Lanthanum phosphate precipitate does seem to cause problems with some fish, especially tangs, although we don't know what exactly is happening. I don't think it'll cause any particular problems with skimmers, as far as I've heard, although it will tend to clog things to some degree, the way any fine particle might.

karimwassef · 05/24/2015, 12:49 AM

I ran mine into the input line of my skimmer. Small dose every hour. I had a sock on the output of my skimmer. Most of it was caught in my skimmer.

I did see my purple tang stress out and I backed off the dosing volume until it got healthy.

It's amazing how little it takes to remove phosphate from a system.

slief · 05/24/2015, 02:51 PM

If you dose directly into the overflow, your skimmer will not remove all the precipitate and the result will be that precipitate enters the water column which will cause issues with your fish and livestock. I would only suggest dosing directly into 10 micron filter socks to insure that no precipitate escapes into the water column. I wouldn't dose directly into the skimmer as it's just not worth risking live stock. I know people do it but I don't think it's a wise idea at all. When using the correct dose that is properly diluted and slow dripped into a 10 micron sock, it's very easy to control and insure that you don't overdose or have precipitate escape into the water column.

I've been using LaCl for years now in my 600+ gallon system. I mix 5ml of LaCl (SeaKlear Commercial brand) into 1 liter of RODI water. I put the mixture into an IV bag and drip at a rate of 1 drop per second into the 10 micron felt socks. I monitor my drip rate and the socks constantly while dosing. When the socks start to back up, I switch the sock out for a new ones. The dosing process takes me around 7 hours and that mixture will have an initial drop of .06-.07 Po4 in my 600-650g system. I am very maticulous about my method and dose and I have never had an issue with a fish or clouding of my water. Any clouding or change is water clarity is a sign that you have precipitate escaping which is not good at all. As mentioned, fish like tangs are particularly sensitive to the precipitate and I believe it's because it attaches to their gills and inhibits their ability to get enough o2.

Make no mistake, LaCl is serious stuff and can be dangerous to your inhabitants. If you dose too much or dose too fast or allow any of it into the water column, the consequences can be serious. You also don't want to drop your Po4 too fast or too much. Like I said, I have seen no adverse effects of my process but I will note that my giant RBTA doesn't like it when I treat. He will shrink up for a day or two and usually extend to the opposite side of the rock peninsula that he normally hangs out on. Not a big deal as he always goes back to his normal side but I have on more than one occasion had to use a power head to encourage it to move back. That is the only thing in my tank that ever shows any reaction from my treatment but like I said, I am meticulous about my process and always do it the same way with the same dose. I do run GFO but feed a lot and my tank and live rock is about 20 years old now. As such, I get a fair amount of Po4 introduced from feeding as well as some leaching from my rocks. I end up doing the LaCl treatment every 6 or so months on an as needed basis. That is usually about the time that my Po4 hits .11 - .12 according to my Hanna ULR Phosphorus checker.

Contrary to your experience, I am certain you can infact control Po4 in your system with GFO. You may need to use a bit more and change it more frequently or use a larger reactor with slightly high flow but rest assured it can be done. The key is to measure the Po4 in the GFO reactors effluent and change the GFO when the Po4 in the effluent starts reading or increasing. Much like a calcium reactor can keep stable CA and Alk levels when properly setup, the GFO reactor can do the same if you find the right balance in terms of flow and volume of GFO in the reactor. You just have to stay on top of it and make sure you are changing it out frequently enough. I mention that because as I noted previously, LaCl is serious stuff and can kill fish and livestock in a hurry if you do it wrong.

reefdude3749 · 05/28/2015, 02:32 PM

Folks...thank you very much for all of your input.

I do have various tangs and zebrasoma species, so that was another learning for me. The primary reason is some algae that I continue to fight with...and a little bit of chino even though my nitrates are non detect. Thanks to all of you, I am very confident in the process now and feel I can accomplish using LC without issue.

At this point, I am going to try to keep everything in check using just GFO. Although, I am very confident based on the information provided that I can use LC, and capture all of it in my sumps bag filters. All of my water goes through the bags although I would need to temporarily use 10 micron bags.

Thanks again....reefdude3749

bertoni · 05/28/2015, 05:33 PM

You're welcome. Good luck!

michael guenther · 06/09/2015, 09:00 AM

This is my primitive lanthanum reactor, which I use for 5 Mons and radius po4 from 1.40 to o.35.
After a break of 6 Mons, the po4 rise again to 1.40, but I must mention that my aquarium 1s 16 years old. Now I think not to stop it, but dilute the concentration much lower for longer time.
I’ll try all phosphate absorbents and nothing made the job like lanthanum chloride.
Some facts about my tank:
350 g(1300l) sea water, including sump once a week ganging ab.17 % with the sea
Soft &stone corals
Down draft skimmer
Adventists: calcium chloride, sodium carbonate
The high raising of phosphate is because the age of the tank

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/pi...ictureid=70088

FullBoreReefer · 06/09/2015, 11:20 AM

Halosource 1040105 SeaKlear Phosphate Remover Commercial Qt https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CMQZZJ6..._F.XDvb0GXE463

Is this the stuff?

slief · 06/09/2015, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FullBoreReefer

Halosource 1040105 SeaKlear Phosphate Remover Commercial Qt https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CMQZZJ6..._F.XDvb0GXE463

Is this the stuff?

That is the SeaKlear stuff I use..

michael guenther · 06/09/2015, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FullBoreReefer

Halosource 1040105 SeaKlear Phosphate Remover Commercial Qt https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CMQZZJ6..._F.XDvb0GXE463

Is this the stuff?

No, by us we haven’t seaclear, so I use lanthanum chloride granulate and dilute 100 gram with 1 liter RO water.
From thus concentration 3-5 ml in 1 liter RO by dosing pump for 24 hours.

karimwassef · 06/09/2015, 01:00 PM

I used the seaklear with success.

tmz · 06/09/2015, 01:39 PM

There several threats from lanthanum chloride when used in an aquarium.

The lanthanum binds with phosphate or carbonate leaving precipitants in the tank.
They may redissolve in certain areas though not at usual aquarium pH levels . Nonetheless, the dust like precipitants are there and may get stirred up affecting respiration or be ingested.
The precipitants can clog respiratory apparatuses on some fish and many filter feeders like calms and feather dusters for example.
Even large fish like Zebrassoma tangs have dropped after swimming through even a small a cloud,for example.

Careful filtration with small micron media is required to keep the precipitants out of the tank.

Some free lanthanum makes it through any filter that water goes through and precipitates in the tank itself perhaps near or on living tissue. This can also cause scaling on the glass and equipment.

Slow dosing in high flow water ensures enough PO4 and or carbonate binds most if not all of the lanthanum before it hits the filter. Diluting it with RO water makes slow dosing easier to manage.

It can lower alkalinity as it binds carbonate .

This is easy to make up but should be monitored. It also may be limited with slow dosing in high volume water flow as more PO4 will be available.

It is very effective at dropping PO4 levels and can easily cause precipitous harmful drops which can be harmful to calcifying organisms.

Start with very small amounts and monitor PO4 a long the way.

This thread has much more detail on products and applications:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hanum+chloride

Sorry about the length culd have gotten 5 posts out of that.

tmz · 06/09/2015, 01:42 PM

Personally, I've used it in aqauriums with very slow dosing and fine filtration without major issues. I opted eventually for gfo which when regenerated isn't much more costly than lanthanum.

I still use lanthanum chloride in curing bins for curing rock leaching phosphate ,since it's easy to rise off the precipitants in that application.

karimwassef · 06/09/2015, 03:02 PM

Agree with tmz. I've gone to GFO after my main bout of removing Phosphates from my man made concrete rocks.

wolfblue · 06/09/2015, 03:24 PM

If you can use GFO. You can not stop some of this stuff from making it to the main tank and we don't know what long term effects could be. It works on the molecular level and then has to stick to itself in large numbers before even a 10 um sock can stop it.

reefdude3749 · 06/10/2017, 02:23 PM

Thanks again for all of the feedback.

I have revisited this topic and decided to try the LC (lanthanum chloride) route. I have not had any adverse affects to corals or fish and I do have zebrasoma tangs, anemones and NEVER HAD any cloudy water, no drops in alkalinity, etc.

MY ISSUE AND QUESTION....It seems that I reach a minimum phosphate level in my DT of about 20 ppb per my Hanna Phosphorus Checker, which translates to about 0.061 ppm phosphate. I confirmed this with a friends phosphate meter at about 0.05 ppm of phosphate. Can this be possible?

Here is my process....pretty much copied "slief" 's advice and customized for my tank.

1. Dilute 6mls of SeaKlear Commercial Grade (9,000 ppb from 10,000 gallons strength) into 1L of RO/DI water.
2. Slow drip over 6-7 hours from IV bag into my overflow.
3. The overflow delivers water to sump and most of the water goes through skimmer.
4. ALL of the water entering the sump and skimmer then goes through one micron filter bags. (Yes, they are one micron versus 5 and ten that some are using.) I have three bags running in parallel and then back to the DT and NEVER have any overflow problems.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and feedback.

Reefdude3749

bertoni · 06/11/2017, 03:00 AM

0.06 ppm or so seems reasonable to me. If you want to drop the phosphate level lower, you might need to use GFO. If the animals are doing well enough, though, I'd leave well enough alone, personally.

tmz · 06/11/2017, 08:08 AM

Yes, it's possible. Lanthanum precipitates as lanthanum phosphate and/ or lanthanum carbonate;so, at some point , probably .05 ppm PO4 or so in your case ,it's no longer efficient at PO4 precipitation in favor of carbonate binding. I agree 0.06 is a reasonable level for PO4.

reefdude3749 · 06/12/2017, 01:42 PM

Bertoni and TMZ....thanks for the responses.

I have not noticed my alkalinity dropping at all, just thought I should say that. If the lanthanum reaction to the carbonate is becoming dominate due to the rate inhibiting effect of the very low phosphate...shouldn't I see the carbonate start to drop? Maybe the impact is within the error of our hobby test instruments?

Also, is the reaction to either the phosphate or the carbonate essentially instantaneous? I ask this as I would not want unreacted lanthanum to enter the DT. Coincidently, I have never seen any cloud in my tank during my LC drips, but I am also running all of my treated water through 1u socks.

Thanks in advance, JPB

bertoni · 06/12/2017, 01:56 PM

I think it'd take a lot of lanthanum to make much of a difference in the measured alkalinity. Remember that phosphate is usually at 1 ppm or less, and carbonate and bicarbonate are at more like 100 ppm:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-11/rhf/index.php#6

I don't know how quickly the reaction might be. I've never needed to use lanthanum chloride. It seems to be relatively quick.

reefdude3749 · 06/12/2017, 04:09 PM

Thanks.

I reviewed the Wastewater treatment article from the EPA circa 1970, and the chemistry has not changed...

Anyway, they state that the reaction rate is very fast..."complete is less than 1 second and are probably nearly instantaneous" at 0.5:1 lanthanum to orthophosphate molar ratios...I am interested in the competing kinetics of the lanthanum carbonate reaction...I assume it is also very fast...so as long as you catch all of the precipitates one should be able to get the phosphate to an even lower level (if desired) with likely some secondary impact such as lowering alkalinity. Make sense?

Thanks again, JPB

tmz · 06/13/2017, 08:54 AM

I'm not sure about the exact kinetics for lanthanum carbonate. My recollection is lanthanum binds with PO4 preferentially vs carbonate.

The more pre filter water volume to which you expose lanthanum the larger the pool of carbonate and PO4 to which it can bind will be. Lanthanum itself is smaller than water ;so it will pass through a filter that water can pass.

Dimorb · 01/16/2020, 09:05 AM

Hello everybody.

I'm having some trouble hope you can help.

I dose lanthanum chloride into my pipe work that goes down to a clarisea sk5000 roller filter after the filter the water goes into the sump - skimmer - filters etc..

I dilute my seaklear commercial 7 ml lanthanum chloride / 1 L of water. Dose it over 24 hours distributed on 150 occasions a' 3,6 ml/dose.

I get the wanted effect in lowering phospates but it also shows on ICP testing and the amount in the water is rising. 4 ug/l last time and 11 ug/l this time.

What do you recommend? Maybe the clarisea sk5000 isnt suitable for this?

I've also noticed an increase in other of other substances like aluminium, lithium and barium do you know if the lanthanum could "free" other substances?

05/23/2015, 07:51 AM	#1
reefdude3749 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Michigan Posts: 77	Lanthanum Chloride Use in a Large Reef Thanks for looking at my post...The reason for my post is to get advice on if my proposed way to run lanthanum chloride makes sense and any pitfalls. I have been reading a lot of the forums here on RC about the use of lanthanum chloride (LC) to reduce phosphates. My main driver for using LC is that with my size of water volume (about 800 gallons with sump), the use of GFO is a bit of a PIA and costly...and I think that my rock/substrate may have absorbed some phosphate as it is very difficult for me to get below a 0.06 ppm reading on the high end Hanna phosphate meters. I also have some nuisance cyano and a little green tint/algae here and there and on the sides of my tank that i do not clean regularly...my thought is to use LC to get to consistent low phosphate readings and then primarily run GFO. My overflows (2) drain into the first section of my sump. My skimmer is fed from this first section of my sump and is also returned to the same section of my sump. The overflow from this first sump section then traverses a weir and goes through three filter socks (would use 10u socks during LC drip) before reaching the next section of my sump where it is returned to my DT. My thought about how to run LC in my system is to drip the diluted LC into my overflow and let the mixing/contact take place in my overflow piping, skimmer (dual Beckett) and first section of my sump. The expectation is that the skimmer and/or socks will remove the precipitate and hence lower my phosphates. Any suggestions or concerns? Also...I have ready about the precipitate being "sticky"...are there any concerns about the precipitate messing up my piping or skimmer or otherwise messing up my system? Thank you in advance for any advice and guidance on this application of LC. ReefDude

05/23/2015, 11:56 AM	#4
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	Lanthanum phosphate precipitate does seem to cause problems with some fish, especially tangs, although we don't know what exactly is happening. I don't think it'll cause any particular problems with skimmers, as far as I've heard, although it will tend to clog things to some degree, the way any fine particle might. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

05/28/2015, 05:33 PM	#8
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	You're welcome. Good luck! __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

06/09/2015, 09:00 AM	#9
michael guenther Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: haifa- israel Posts: 57	lanthanum chloride This is my primitive lanthanum reactor, which I use for 5 Mons and radius po4 from 1.40 to o.35. After a break of 6 Mons, the po4 rise again to 1.40, but I must mention that my aquarium 1s 16 years old. Now I think not to stop it, but dilute the concentration much lower for longer time. I’ll try all phosphate absorbents and nothing made the job like lanthanum chloride. Some facts about my tank: 350 g(1300l) sea water, including sump once a week ganging ab.17 % with the sea Soft &stone corals Down draft skimmer Adventists: calcium chloride, sodium carbonate The high raising of phosphate is because the age of the tank http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/pi...ictureid=70088

06/09/2015, 11:20 AM	#10
FullBoreReefer Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Wooster, OH Posts: 1,862	Halosource 1040105 SeaKlear Phosphate Remover Commercial Qt https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CMQZZJ6..._F.XDvb0GXE463 Is this the stuff? __________________ 60x36x24 mixed reef. 40b sump. Regal 250int Varios. 4xHydra26HDs+t5s. 4xMp40wes. Apex2016.

05/23/2015, 08:49 AM	#2
dkeller_nc Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Central NC Posts: 5,062	My first thought is that 0.06 ppm of phosphate is already pretty close to what most reefers think is a good value. Presuming your test results are reasonably accurate, it should be pretty easy to keep the tank water at or below this level with high-capacity GFO media. Regenerating it yourself will drastically lower the cost of using it - it's as easy as just soaking it in a lye solution on your kitchen counter. With respect to LaCl use, I'd suggest that you'd want to drip the solution directly into one of your filter socks. The reaction of lanthanum with orthophosphate to form an insoluble precipitate is nearly instantaneous, and if it were my tank, I'd want to be absolutely sure that I captured all of the precipitate, and I'd also want to be absolutely sure that phosphate remained in excess in the tank water so that no soluble lanthanum escaped the sump. Do you have any zebrasoma tangs in this tank? This genus is reported to be exceptionally sensitive to lanthanum, and given the relatively easy possibility of either not capturing all of the lanthanum precipitate or of adding enough lanthanum chloride so that soluble lanthanum remains in the tank water, I'd ditch the idea of using it and stick with GFO, especially considering your already low phosphate concentration.

05/23/2015, 09:05 AM	#3
jay13 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: michigan Posts: 220	I agree with the above. I used lanthanum on my 180 with a 200 gallon total water volume and it worked. I will stress the point of doing small amounts very slowly. When i did it i dripped it into the top of my durso so it mixed all the way down the pipe and into a filter sock. I assume you have an algae problem that is spurring this move? Otherwise forgetchasing numbers.

05/24/2015, 12:49 AM	#5
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	I ran mine into the input line of my skimmer. Small dose every hour. I had a sock on the output of my skimmer. Most of it was caught in my skimmer. I did see my purple tang stress out and I backed off the dosing volume until it got healthy. It's amazing how little it takes to remove phosphate from a system.

05/24/2015, 02:51 PM	#6
slief RC Sponsor Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 14,173	If you dose directly into the overflow, your skimmer will not remove all the precipitate and the result will be that precipitate enters the water column which will cause issues with your fish and livestock. I would only suggest dosing directly into 10 micron filter socks to insure that no precipitate escapes into the water column. I wouldn't dose directly into the skimmer as it's just not worth risking live stock. I know people do it but I don't think it's a wise idea at all. When using the correct dose that is properly diluted and slow dripped into a 10 micron sock, it's very easy to control and insure that you don't overdose or have precipitate escape into the water column. I've been using LaCl for years now in my 600+ gallon system. I mix 5ml of LaCl (SeaKlear Commercial brand) into 1 liter of RODI water. I put the mixture into an IV bag and drip at a rate of 1 drop per second into the 10 micron felt socks. I monitor my drip rate and the socks constantly while dosing. When the socks start to back up, I switch the sock out for a new ones. The dosing process takes me around 7 hours and that mixture will have an initial drop of .06-.07 Po4 in my 600-650g system. I am very maticulous about my method and dose and I have never had an issue with a fish or clouding of my water. Any clouding or change is water clarity is a sign that you have precipitate escaping which is not good at all. As mentioned, fish like tangs are particularly sensitive to the precipitate and I believe it's because it attaches to their gills and inhibits their ability to get enough o2. Make no mistake, LaCl is serious stuff and can be dangerous to your inhabitants. If you dose too much or dose too fast or allow any of it into the water column, the consequences can be serious. You also don't want to drop your Po4 too fast or too much. Like I said, I have seen no adverse effects of my process but I will note that my giant RBTA doesn't like it when I treat. He will shrink up for a day or two and usually extend to the opposite side of the rock peninsula that he normally hangs out on. Not a big deal as he always goes back to his normal side but I have on more than one occasion had to use a power head to encourage it to move back. That is the only thing in my tank that ever shows any reaction from my treatment but like I said, I am meticulous about my process and always do it the same way with the same dose. I do run GFO but feed a lot and my tank and live rock is about 20 years old now. As such, I get a fair amount of Po4 introduced from feeding as well as some leaching from my rocks. I end up doing the LaCl treatment every 6 or so months on an as needed basis. That is usually about the time that my Po4 hits .11 - .12 according to my Hanna ULR Phosphorus checker. Contrary to your experience, I am certain you can infact control Po4 in your system with GFO. You may need to use a bit more and change it more frequently or use a larger reactor with slightly high flow but rest assured it can be done. The key is to measure the Po4 in the GFO reactors effluent and change the GFO when the Po4 in the effluent starts reading or increasing. Much like a calcium reactor can keep stable CA and Alk levels when properly setup, the GFO reactor can do the same if you find the right balance in terms of flow and volume of GFO in the reactor. You just have to stay on top of it and make sure you are changing it out frequently enough. I mention that because as I noted previously, LaCl is serious stuff and can kill fish and livestock in a hurry if you do it wrong. __________________ Director Customer Support Royal Exclusiv USA For All Royal Exclusiv & Bubble King questions please refer to our Sponsor forum: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/fo...play.php?f=745 Current Tank Info: 480G display mixed reef, 90G sump, 90G refugium, 60G display refugium. Check out my build thread: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1783476

05/28/2015, 02:32 PM	#7
reefdude3749 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Michigan Posts: 77	Folks...thank you very much for all of your input. I do have various tangs and zebrasoma species, so that was another learning for me. The primary reason is some algae that I continue to fight with...and a little bit of chino even though my nitrates are non detect. Thanks to all of you, I am very confident in the process now and feel I can accomplish using LC without issue. At this point, I am going to try to keep everything in check using just GFO. Although, I am very confident based on the information provided that I can use LC, and capture all of it in my sumps bag filters. All of my water goes through the bags although I would need to temporarily use 10 micron bags. Thanks again....reefdude3749

06/09/2015, 01:00 PM	#13
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	I used the seaklear with success.

06/09/2015, 01:39 PM	#14
tmz ReefKeeping Mag staff Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: West Seneca NY Posts: 27,691	There several threats from lanthanum chloride when used in an aquarium. The lanthanum binds with phosphate or carbonate leaving precipitants in the tank. They may redissolve in certain areas though not at usual aquarium pH levels . Nonetheless, the dust like precipitants are there and may get stirred up affecting respiration or be ingested. The precipitants can clog respiratory apparatuses on some fish and many filter feeders like calms and feather dusters for example. Even large fish like Zebrassoma tangs have dropped after swimming through even a small a cloud,for example. Careful filtration with small micron media is required to keep the precipitants out of the tank. Some free lanthanum makes it through any filter that water goes through and precipitates in the tank itself perhaps near or on living tissue. This can also cause scaling on the glass and equipment. Slow dosing in high flow water ensures enough PO4 and or carbonate binds most if not all of the lanthanum before it hits the filter. Diluting it with RO water makes slow dosing easier to manage. It can lower alkalinity as it binds carbonate . This is easy to make up but should be monitored. It also may be limited with slow dosing in high volume water flow as more PO4 will be available. It is very effective at dropping PO4 levels and can easily cause precipitous harmful drops which can be harmful to calcifying organisms. Start with very small amounts and monitor PO4 a long the way. This thread has much more detail on products and applications: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hanum+chloride Sorry about the length culd have gotten 5 posts out of that. __________________ Tom Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.

06/09/2015, 01:42 PM	#15
tmz ReefKeeping Mag staff Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: West Seneca NY Posts: 27,691	Personally, I've used it in aqauriums with very slow dosing and fine filtration without major issues. I opted eventually for gfo which when regenerated isn't much more costly than lanthanum. I still use lanthanum chloride in curing bins for curing rock leaching phosphate ,since it's easy to rise off the precipitants in that application. __________________ Tom Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.

06/09/2015, 03:02 PM	#16
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	Agree with tmz. I've gone to GFO after my main bout of removing Phosphates from my man made concrete rocks.

06/09/2015, 03:24 PM	#17
wolfblue Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 300	If you can use GFO. You can not stop some of this stuff from making it to the main tank and we don't know what long term effects could be. It works on the molecular level and then has to stick to itself in large numbers before even a 10 um sock can stop it. __________________ --John AALSO Level III

06/10/2017, 02:23 PM	#18
reefdude3749 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Michigan Posts: 77	Thanks again for all of the feedback. I have revisited this topic and decided to try the LC (lanthanum chloride) route. I have not had any adverse affects to corals or fish and I do have zebrasoma tangs, anemones and NEVER HAD any cloudy water, no drops in alkalinity, etc. MY ISSUE AND QUESTION....It seems that I reach a minimum phosphate level in my DT of about 20 ppb per my Hanna Phosphorus Checker, which translates to about 0.061 ppm phosphate. I confirmed this with a friends phosphate meter at about 0.05 ppm of phosphate. Can this be possible? Here is my process....pretty much copied "slief" 's advice and customized for my tank. 1. Dilute 6mls of SeaKlear Commercial Grade (9,000 ppb from 10,000 gallons strength) into 1L of RO/DI water. 2. Slow drip over 6-7 hours from IV bag into my overflow. 3. The overflow delivers water to sump and most of the water goes through skimmer. 4. ALL of the water entering the sump and skimmer then goes through one micron filter bags. (Yes, they are one micron versus 5 and ten that some are using.) I have three bags running in parallel and then back to the DT and NEVER have any overflow problems. Thanks in advance for your thoughts and feedback. Reefdude3749

06/11/2017, 03:00 AM	#19
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	0.06 ppm or so seems reasonable to me. If you want to drop the phosphate level lower, you might need to use GFO. If the animals are doing well enough, though, I'd leave well enough alone, personally. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

06/11/2017, 08:08 AM	#20
tmz ReefKeeping Mag staff Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: West Seneca NY Posts: 27,691	Yes, it's possible. Lanthanum precipitates as lanthanum phosphate and/ or lanthanum carbonate;so, at some point , probably .05 ppm PO4 or so in your case ,it's no longer efficient at PO4 precipitation in favor of carbonate binding. I agree 0.06 is a reasonable level for PO4. __________________ Tom Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals. Last edited by tmz; 06/11/2017 at 08:20 AM.

06/12/2017, 01:42 PM	#21
reefdude3749 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Michigan Posts: 77	Bertoni and TMZ....thanks for the responses. I have not noticed my alkalinity dropping at all, just thought I should say that. If the lanthanum reaction to the carbonate is becoming dominate due to the rate inhibiting effect of the very low phosphate...shouldn't I see the carbonate start to drop? Maybe the impact is within the error of our hobby test instruments? Also, is the reaction to either the phosphate or the carbonate essentially instantaneous? I ask this as I would not want unreacted lanthanum to enter the DT. Coincidently, I have never seen any cloud in my tank during my LC drips, but I am also running all of my treated water through 1u socks. Thanks in advance, JPB __________________ 800 gallon total system volume, fuge with Cheato, internal and external skimmers, kalk in ATO. Typical parameters: Alk ~8.3 dkH, Ca ~420 ppm, Mg ~1300 pm, NO3 ~0.25 ppm (trace), PO4 ~0.07 ppm. Current Tank Info: 700 gallon system, mixed reef, Neptune/Apex Control, 10 Radion Pros, 4 MP60s, ...

06/12/2017, 01:56 PM	#22
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	I think it'd take a lot of lanthanum to make much of a difference in the measured alkalinity. Remember that phosphate is usually at 1 ppm or less, and carbonate and bicarbonate are at more like 100 ppm: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-11/rhf/index.php#6 I don't know how quickly the reaction might be. I've never needed to use lanthanum chloride. It seems to be relatively quick. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

06/12/2017, 04:09 PM	#23
reefdude3749 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Michigan Posts: 77	Thanks. I reviewed the Wastewater treatment article from the EPA circa 1970, and the chemistry has not changed... Anyway, they state that the reaction rate is very fast..."complete is less than 1 second and are probably nearly instantaneous" at 0.5:1 lanthanum to orthophosphate molar ratios...I am interested in the competing kinetics of the lanthanum carbonate reaction...I assume it is also very fast...so as long as you catch all of the precipitates one should be able to get the phosphate to an even lower level (if desired) with likely some secondary impact such as lowering alkalinity. Make sense? Thanks again, JPB __________________ 800 gallon total system volume, fuge with Cheato, internal and external skimmers, kalk in ATO. Typical parameters: Alk ~8.3 dkH, Ca ~420 ppm, Mg ~1300 pm, NO3 ~0.25 ppm (trace), PO4 ~0.07 ppm. Current Tank Info: 700 gallon system, mixed reef, Neptune/Apex Control, 10 Radion Pros, 4 MP60s, ...

06/13/2017, 08:54 AM	#24
tmz ReefKeeping Mag staff Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: West Seneca NY Posts: 27,691	I'm not sure about the exact kinetics for lanthanum carbonate. My recollection is lanthanum binds with PO4 preferentially vs carbonate. The more pre filter water volume to which you expose lanthanum the larger the pool of carbonate and PO4 to which it can bind will be. Lanthanum itself is smaller than water ;so it will pass through a filter that water can pass. __________________ Tom Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals. Last edited by tmz; 06/13/2017 at 09:16 AM.

01/16/2020, 09:05 AM	#25
Dimorb Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 18	Help! Hello everybody. I'm having some trouble hope you can help. I dose lanthanum chloride into my pipe work that goes down to a clarisea sk5000 roller filter after the filter the water goes into the sump - skimmer - filters etc.. I dilute my seaklear commercial 7 ml lanthanum chloride / 1 L of water. Dose it over 24 hours distributed on 150 occasions a' 3,6 ml/dose. I get the wanted effect in lowering phospates but it also shows on ICP testing and the amount in the water is rising. 4 ug/l last time and 11 ug/l this time. What do you recommend? Maybe the clarisea sk5000 isnt suitable for this? I've also noticed an increase in other of other substances like aluminium, lithium and barium do you know if the lanthanum could "free" other substances?