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Unread 02/13/2008, 11:31 AM   #1
krazeekiddie
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Black Ich...Please confirm! (Copperband)

Hello! I posted in the disease forum as well, just want to confirm this is black ich before I begin hyposalinity treatment in QT! Here we go!

My post from other forum:

I want to be sure this is Black Ich before I begin Hyposalinity in a QT tank. I also believe he has regular Ich as well as he has black & white spots on his fins.

When I puchased him, I was told he did not have ich. He also had some scales that looked damaged, & I was told he had brushed up against a rock/dead coral. My cleaner shrimp removed the scales, which now left him with "bare" flesh. I will be watching him for bacterial & fungal infections as well.

Hope someone can confirm my "diagnosis" Thanks in advance!














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Unread 02/13/2008, 11:40 AM   #2
renogaw
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hypo won't get rid of black ich, but will get rid of the normal marine ich you have. you'll also have to treat all the rest of your fish, and keep your tank fallow for 6 weeks.

also, keep an eye out for bacterial infections on the open wound


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Unread 02/13/2008, 11:50 AM   #3
weaselslucks
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is he in your main display now? i wouldn'f of put him in my main system with damage and ick


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Unread 02/13/2008, 11:53 AM   #4
renogaw
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Quote:
Originally posted by weaselslucks
is he in your main display now? i wouldn'f of put him in my main system with damage and ick
that's what i'm assuming, since the fish is getting picked on by the cleaner shrimp already.


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Unread 02/13/2008, 12:09 PM   #5
seacraze
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Krazee do you need a spare treatment tank - call me


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Unread 02/13/2008, 12:34 PM   #6
krazeekiddie
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Hi Mom, yup, need a new tank, can I swing by tonight & grab one??

Ok, just what I thought! How have you guys treated the back ich? Anyone with experience?

He is in my main display because I am upgrading to a 150 shortly, so the tank they are in is like a "holding" tank until the 150 is ready, (sand etc was all not coming out but being dryed out & bleached incase I ever needed it) but my 30 Gallon QT tank I had cycled in my basement decided it wanted to crack & emptied all over my basement floor when I went to prepare it last night for transfer! Fun times fun times!

Can i move the cleaner into QT with him? He really enjoys him!

Yup & am keeping an eye on his "wound" for infection as well. I was giving it a look over last night when I saw how bad the spots on his fins had gotten. He had hid allot since I got him & had the flu the past 2 days, so hadn't kept the best eye on him as I should have. I got him on saturday, amazing how fast it progressed!

Anyone who has had experience with the black ich??? Not to much info out there, curious as to what experiences people have had with it?


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Unread 02/13/2008, 12:37 PM   #7
krazeekiddie
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By the way, thanks for the replies, not one person has responded in disease yet, you guys rock.... =)


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Unread 02/13/2008, 12:52 PM   #8
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black ich is treated with a formalin bath, which is a toxic chemical (formaldihide).

no, you cannot move the shrimp over, since hypo kills all inverts. Before you set up and move this fish, please describe your tank.

is it reef?

how many fish do you have?

how many inverts?

can you move your rock/corals to a tub and hypo your display tank?

the problem with grabbing this new HT is that you have not cycled it. you are going to have ammonia issues, but your fish cannot wait for it to cycle. you'll be better off hypoing your display tank after you remove ALL the inverts, rock, and corals


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Unread 02/13/2008, 12:54 PM   #9
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here's a good write up, i don't usually visit much on RC but know swf.com is great info.

http://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/showthread.php?t=127007


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Unread 02/13/2008, 01:09 PM   #10
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Very familiar with formalin, have used it allot with seahorses. Nasty stuff, but it works!! I have read conflicting issues with using formalin for ich, but at this point, I don't know of any other options. (I don't know if copper is effective with the black ich)

They are in a 55 gallon tank. Baby yellow tang (purchased 2 weeks ago in anticipation for the 150) 2 clowns, and a mandarin.

I have close to 50 blue legged hermits, various snails, & rock with a ton of life, everything from feather dusters, micro brittle stars, spagetti worms etc.

Mixed as for corals, allot of zoanthids, some rics, a ton of shrooms, a few micros, a few acans, 4-5 Trachs, most can be removed. Shrooms, rics & some zoas can't be as they have made the rock their home. But if they need to be casualties, so be it!

I have another tank I can transfer most too, another 55. But that tank is pretty at it's stocking limit as well.....I think the extra bio-load would crash it........

I will call my mom to see if she has something up & going I can transfermy coral & inverts into. I am sure I can move most of the rocks with beasts attached to them...

I am going to go read that other link now..... =)


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Unread 02/13/2008, 01:14 PM   #11
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even if you were to move all your live rock, your inverts, and your corals to that 55, it wouldn't be a huge bioload issue. the issue is you could easily be transfering ich to that tank.

you want to keep the two systems completely seperate. INCLUDING don't use the same nets and other utensils in each different tank.

putting everything into a 35 gallon tote, or even the other tank your mother has, would be ideal, then hypo the main tank and include ALL your fish. don't worry about the sand, just get any snails out of it.


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Unread 02/13/2008, 01:15 PM   #12
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Worried if I remove all of the live rock that the tank will crash.

Familiar with hypo salinity with the horses as well. But we always did it in a separate tank, not in their display. So there were no rocks, only a hitching post.

Also, my mandarin would starve without his rock to hunt in, another concern of mine!

I am really hitting my head on the wall for this one. stupid silly me!

No other option than to treat in a tank other than my main display, I can move all fish but the mandarin.....to be honest, he's my favorite =*(

crap


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Unread 02/13/2008, 01:16 PM   #13
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ok....any suggestion for my mandarin?


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Unread 02/13/2008, 01:16 PM   #14
renogaw
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Quote:
Originally posted by krazeekiddie
Very familiar with formalin, have used it allot with seahorses. Nasty stuff, but it works!! I have read conflicting issues with using formalin for ich, but at this point, I don't know of any other options. (I don't know if copper is effective with the black ich)

=)

you're dealing with two totally different parasites. hypo will get rid of the white ich, formalin will get rid of the black ich. copper will get rid of the white ich, but then it would totally destroy the usability of your tank, utensils, etc.


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Unread 02/13/2008, 01:17 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by krazeekiddie
ok....any suggestion for my mandarin?
keep him with the rock. they are 99% immune to ich. if it got into its gills it will be an issue, but most likely it wouldnt have. you have to worry more about its diet than ich with the mandarin.


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Unread 02/13/2008, 01:19 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by krazeekiddie
Worried if I remove all of the live rock that the tank will crash.

Familiar with hypo salinity with the horses as well. But we always did it in a separate tank, not in their display. So there were no rocks, only a hitching post.

Also, my mandarin would starve without his rock to hunt in, another concern of mine!

I am really hitting my head on the wall for this one. stupid silly me!

No other option than to treat in a tank other than my main display, I can move all fish but the mandarin.....to be honest, he's my favorite =*(

crap
the sand will help keep the tank from crashing. you'll decimate your pod and worm population in the sand, but its better than killing off your fish from putting them in an uncycled tank with no ammonia fighting bacteria.


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Unread 02/13/2008, 01:22 PM   #17
renogaw
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one other thing, if you want to double check me in swf's disease forum, i'd feel better as well. beth and sepulation are both very longtime salt disease "specialists" and are more than willing to help anyone that goes there. posting the pics would help as well.


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Unread 02/13/2008, 01:23 PM   #18
krazeekiddie
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You rock! Mandarin will be moved along with everything else this evening.

This should be exciting.

I am bookmarking that link you gave me, some great info.

Should I also give formalin baths to my fish not showing signs of black ich? Or Just Cooper?? (Yea, all of my fishies have names, I am a weirdo)


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Unread 02/13/2008, 01:24 PM   #19
krazeekiddie
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I posted in the disease forum before in here with the pics, 6 views, still no replys! I will keep waiting!


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Unread 02/13/2008, 01:30 PM   #20
renogaw
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Quote:
Originally posted by krazeekiddie
I posted in the disease forum before in here with the pics, 6 views, still no replys! I will keep waiting!
post on saltwaterfish.com's disease forums. you'll get tons of responses.


personally, i do not know how black ich spreads, so i don't know if giving all the fish a bath would be beneficial or not.


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Unread 02/13/2008, 01:37 PM   #21
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Looks to me like you have 3 things going on...

Black Ich.... Don't know anything about.

Regular Ich....
look up " Three day transfer method" it doesn't use formalin, your changing 100% of the water every 3 days so no big ammonia problems, and you can just use rubbermaid tubs. I've combined this with hyposalinity to reduce stress on the fish and have had great success. Worst part is letting the display tank sit fallow for 6 weeks. Don't forget while you are doing the transfer method to set up a qt tank that will be cycled by the time you are done with the transfers. (don't use anything from your display tank in the QT setup).

Fungal infection....

I'd also use antibiotics as it look as if you have a fungal infection also.... the white cottony tufts on the side of the fish.


Here is a link to a good Fish disorder and treatment flow chart.

http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/fish_dis...disorders.html

Mike


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Unread 02/13/2008, 01:38 PM   #22
krazeekiddie
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Will do now, thank you very much for your help!


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Unread 02/13/2008, 01:42 PM   #23
renogaw
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Quote:
Originally posted by OK
Worst part is letting the display tank sit fallow for 6 weeks.

Mike
by hypoing the main display tank after removing everything, the tank no longer has to remain fallow for 6 weeks since hypo kills all the ich in the tank.


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Unread 02/13/2008, 01:44 PM   #24
krazeekiddie
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fungal to huh? Poor fish! I thought that was "residue" from the scales being pulled off by my cleaner shrimp....poor fishie fish....I brought this one on myself is allllllll I have to say!


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Unread 02/13/2008, 01:45 PM   #25
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FYI If you remove ALL fish, and just fish from your display and let it sit fallow for at least 6 weeks, the ich will die off. No other treatment is necessary for the display.

2nd ALL of the fish need to be QT and treated, not just the fish that are showing signs of infection.

Rubbermaid containers are cheap and effective. I've personally never cycled a QT. Just waterchanges when needed to keep ammonia to a minimum, but I won't beat that horse again with Renogaw.

Mike


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