Reef Central Online Community

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > General Interest Forums > The Reef Chemistry Forum
Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

User Tag List

Reply
Thread Tools
Unread 01/17/2010, 09:11 AM   #76
ScooterTDI
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 290
Quote:
Originally Posted by plankton View Post
Randy - So, what's the best recipe thus far to regenerate GFO? Just acid wash or acid, then base... or what? Thanks in advance...

Scott

Personally, I think that the NaOH wash is unecessary. An acid wash will dissolve any precipitated CaCO3 as well as resurface the GFO.

Scott


__________________
"the profusion of tildes" - Leonard A. Smith
ScooterTDI is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/17/2010, 12:42 PM   #77
AcroporAddict
There is no substitute.
 
AcroporAddict's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Southeast
Posts: 2,269
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScooterTDI View Post
Well, GFO is fairly porous, but I don't think the concern is necessarily NaOH, but rather getting all of the PO4 enriched solution out of the GFO.

Scott
I see. I just read Randy's article on it and he addresses internal surface area as well...thanks.

A simple acid wash followed by some tap water rinsing would be nice if it works.


AcroporAddict is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/17/2010, 04:13 PM   #78
ken30360
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 8
Ummm, he just did something with math. I'm gonna lay down till my head stops hurting!

mcoomer,
I like the way you think,,,,,

Phil


ken30360 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/19/2010, 04:02 AM   #79
jptenklooster
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 56
Smile

Hello everybody,

I started this discussion in the BP discussion, but I think it is a good thing that Tatu made a separate one for everybody to follow. To answer some questions on how often you can regenerate the GFO. The producers of GFO have tested this and stopped testing after 10times regeneration. It was still 100% active. In my experience 30x is working as well (and going). I just have 2 badges of GFO, one in my tank and the other is regenerating in 1 M NaOH. I even reuse the NaOH solution 2x.

Furtheremore, GFO is Ironhydroxide/oxide mixture, so regeneration with vinegar will remove the phosphate but won't replace this with OH-. The advantage of having hydroxide bound to iron is that upon HPO4 binding (most commen form of PO4 in seawater) the released proton from the phosphate will interact with the hydroxide and will therefore not effect the pH in a negative way.

FeOH/O + HPO4 --> FePO4 + H2O

Good luck with saving money


jptenklooster is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/19/2010, 04:56 AM   #80
ScooterTDI
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 290
Its good to hear that you can get many regenerations out of GFO without losing activity.

I don't understand why you need NaOH to "replace" OH- on the surface of the GFO. The GFO already has OH- incorporated. By dissolving the surface with acid, you are exposing a fresh FeOH3 surface. There ought to still be FeOH3-on the surface of the GFO.

Scott


__________________
"the profusion of tildes" - Leonard A. Smith
ScooterTDI is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/19/2010, 07:44 AM   #81
Randy Holmes-Farley
Reef Chemist
 
Randy Holmes-Farley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Arlington, Massachusetts
Posts: 86,233
You do not "need" to replace anything, but how you treat the surface of GFO will determine what is there, and if what is there changes when added to tank water, you can find that there may be a net addition or subtraction of alkalinity and a consequent one time initial effect on pH.

Many mineral surface will have properties that change with pH. A hydroxide, in particular, will have a variety of different surface forms. Specifically, the surface will not be just hydroxide ions, so the relative amounts of OH- will change with pH. In pure water the surface-charge determining ions are OH- and H3O+. At lower pH, there are more of the latter and the surface charge is more positive.

In other solutions, like vinegar or seawater, some of the OH- sites may be taken up by chloride, sulfate, carbonate, and in the case using a vinegar wash, acetate.

The point where the surface of iron oxide/hydroxide has no net charge is usually described as being in the pH 7-10 range.


__________________
Randy Holmes-Farley

Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef
Randy Holmes-Farley is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/19/2010, 08:15 AM   #82
ScooterTDI
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 290
So, I did some quick research on GFO regeneration. Two studies had some interesting info.

First, as far as fluoride desorption goes, a minimum desorption occurs under acidic conditions. I haven't found any phosphate specific acid regeration studies yet though. So, maybe acidic regeration is not the way to go. I'll see if I can find any phosphate specific information.

Second, under basic regeneration, a 15-40% loss in capacity is seen after the first regeneration cycle. It was posutulated by the authors that a phase transformation to geothite or hematite is occuring. It is interesting that tatu noted a color change upon regeneration. Just guessing, but this could possibly be the result of phase transformation to hematite.

One study found that 0.1M NaOH was sufficient for regeneration and higher concentrations yielded no additional benefit. They also found that a volume of regeneration solution 9 times the bed volume (volume of GFO) was sufficient with no additional improvement in regeneration efficiency when using 60 time the bed volume.

Scott


__________________
"the profusion of tildes" - Leonard A. Smith

Last edited by ScooterTDI; 01/19/2010 at 08:21 AM.
ScooterTDI is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/19/2010, 09:43 AM   #83
jptenklooster
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 56
the idea is that you replace the phosphate with OH- in order to obtain FeOH/O again. This regeneration has nothing to do with scraping of the surface, at least according to manufacturers. Personally I did not notice any colour changes, but this might depend on the brand GFO that you are using.


jptenklooster is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/19/2010, 11:14 AM   #84
ScooterTDI
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 290
I don't think there is anything necessarily special about the surface hydroxide groups. They are just being displaced by phosphate.

Is there any reason that surface bound acetate would not simply be displaced by phosphate? Would acetate (with its relatively lower basicity compared to OH-) actually be a better to have on the surface because it would be more readily displaced? I'd guess that the acetate is mostly displaced from the surface by OH- fairly quickly once placed back in the tank anyway.

The phase transformation info was referring to akaganeite (sp?) being converted to hematite or geothite. Although akaganeite is reported to have the greatest binding capacity, I think some manufacturers use different forms, so a phase transformation may not occur in all brands. Again, it was just a guess.

Scott


__________________
"the profusion of tildes" - Leonard A. Smith
ScooterTDI is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/28/2010, 05:31 PM   #85
chaderic26
Registered Member
 
chaderic26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: OKC
Posts: 1,064
I gave my old gfo I was gonna throw away a dip in lye solution and then a dip in acid then rinsed well.

Should this stuff be ready to go for next time I switch it out?


__________________
Raoul Duke: There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.

Current Tank Info: 220 Gallon Shined up Turd.
chaderic26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/29/2010, 06:08 AM   #86
Randy Holmes-Farley
Reef Chemist
 
Randy Holmes-Farley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Arlington, Massachusetts
Posts: 86,233
I'd guess that the acetate is mostly displaced from the surface by OH- fairly quickly once placed back in the tank anyway.

I agree that acetate will not stay bound in tank water.


__________________
Randy Holmes-Farley

Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef
Randy Holmes-Farley is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/29/2010, 08:02 AM   #87
ScooterTDI
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 290
Quote:
Originally Posted by chaderic26 View Post
I gave my old gfo I was gonna throw away a dip in lye solution and then a dip in acid then rinsed well.

Should this stuff be ready to go for next time I switch it out?
First, I'd do the acid first if I was going to use both vinegar and NaOH.

Also, I'd immerse it longer than just a dip. I don't have any definitive time period necessary to regenerate, but it certainly wouldn't hurt too much to at least immerse it for a couple of hours. That is what I've been doing with vinegar. I can't find the paper I was looking at earlier, but if I remember correctly they were just eluting a column of GFO with a few bed volumes of NaOH. Filling a column with GFO and slowly eluting with either vinegar or NaOH would probably be the preferred method of regeneration.

Scott


__________________
"the profusion of tildes" - Leonard A. Smith
ScooterTDI is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/29/2010, 11:29 AM   #88
redfishsc
Registered Member
 
redfishsc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 3,696
So on the practical level, we're looking at regenerating GFO by soaking it for a few hours in vinegar or sodium hydroxide?


__________________
"The measure of a life is not its duration but its donation." Corrie Ten Boom

“The tyrant dies and his rule is over, the martyr dies and his rule begins” -- Søren Kierkegaard

Current Tank Info: ghetto grad school reef.....11g rimless tank, 36X9X9, lit by Cree and Rebels scobbled together. Stocked mostly with free stuff I got from panhandling my fellow reefers.
redfishsc is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/29/2010, 01:47 PM   #89
chaderic26
Registered Member
 
chaderic26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: OKC
Posts: 1,064
I soaked it in muriatic acid then a lye solution for about an hour each with r/o rinsing in between.


__________________
Raoul Duke: There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.

Current Tank Info: 220 Gallon Shined up Turd.
chaderic26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/30/2010, 07:17 AM   #90
Fish Ace
Registered Member
 
Fish Ace's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 301
An interesting subject, but what is the bottom line and how can we do it cheaply?


Fish Ace is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/30/2010, 08:41 AM   #91
ScooterTDI
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 290
The bottom line is that you can use acids like vinegar or hydrochloric acid. You can also use bases like sodium hydroxide or potassium hydroxide. You can also use both. It very inexpensive to do this. A gallon of vinegar is a few dollars and would be enough for many many regeneration cycles.

Scott


__________________
"the profusion of tildes" - Leonard A. Smith
ScooterTDI is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/30/2010, 08:46 AM   #92
redfishsc
Registered Member
 
redfishsc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 3,696
Nice.

Muriatic is cheap too but dangerous if you have kids around or are a bit of a klutz yourself.
Muriatic (hydrochloric) can be diluted down as necessary.


If one tried vinegar, how much vinegar to regenerate, say, a cup of GFO? And how long would you guys suggest?


__________________
"The measure of a life is not its duration but its donation." Corrie Ten Boom

“The tyrant dies and his rule is over, the martyr dies and his rule begins” -- Søren Kierkegaard

Current Tank Info: ghetto grad school reef.....11g rimless tank, 36X9X9, lit by Cree and Rebels scobbled together. Stocked mostly with free stuff I got from panhandling my fellow reefers.
redfishsc is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/30/2010, 09:03 AM   #93
ScooterTDI
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 290
I haven't tried muriatic acid (same as hydrochloric acid), but as you said I'd imagine that dilution is probably necessary to prevent excessive dissolution of the GFO.

I haven't experimented much yet, but I've just been soaking in a volume about 2X the GFO volume. The more solution volume you use, the more PO4 and FeOH will be released into solution before equilibrium will be established, but there is a point of diminishing returns. I'm not sure where that point is yet. Next time, I will try a few succesive soaks like this and see if I get an appreciable PO4 concentration in the 2nd and 3rd soaks.

Next time I go to Lowes, I'll pick up some trisodium phosphate and run some more controlled experiments.

Scott


__________________
"the profusion of tildes" - Leonard A. Smith
ScooterTDI is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/30/2010, 09:16 AM   #94
Fish Ace
Registered Member
 
Fish Ace's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 301
I'd be interested in knowing how much vinegar to GFO.


Fish Ace is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/30/2010, 12:49 PM   #95
reefrad
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: NYC
Posts: 134
I checked so called 'distilled vinegar' with a hannah meter and the hosphates came back at 2.5! aparently distilled referrs to the dilution of the vinegar and not the water itself...


reefrad is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01/30/2010, 01:06 PM   #96
Randy Holmes-Farley
Reef Chemist
 
Randy Holmes-Farley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Arlington, Massachusetts
Posts: 86,233
There is some phosphorus in vinegar (as there also may be in sodium hydroxide and muriatic acid), but at the pH of vinegar it will not likely bind much to GFO.


__________________
Randy Holmes-Farley

Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

Last edited by Randy Holmes-Farley; 01/30/2010 at 01:28 PM.
Randy Holmes-Farley is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02/03/2010, 09:21 PM   #97
James79
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Houston Tx
Posts: 170
Could someone estimate how much of a 50% sodium hydroxide solution would be needed to get 1 liter at 1M?


James79 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02/04/2010, 06:08 AM   #98
Randy Holmes-Farley
Reef Chemist
 
Randy Holmes-Farley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Arlington, Massachusetts
Posts: 86,233
Could someone estimate how much of a 50% sodium hydroxide solution would be needed to get 1 liter at 1M?

Sure. You need 40 grams of solid NaOH, or 80 grams of 50%. The density is probably around 1.5 g/mL, so maybe 50-60 mL.


__________________
Randy Holmes-Farley

Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef
Randy Holmes-Farley is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02/04/2010, 08:50 AM   #99
msman825
Registered Member
 
msman825's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: maine
Posts: 1,301
would this work with just reg phosban


__________________
MSMAN
msman825 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02/04/2010, 04:39 PM   #100
James79
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Houston Tx
Posts: 170
Thanks Randy, this is a great way to stretch a dollar.


James79 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2024 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright ©1999-2022
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.