Big 3 Shootout Alk, Ca, Mg: RedSea, Nyos, Elos, Salifert, API, Hanna, Triton, AWT

[jason2459]

It's finally down to the big three. Alkalinity, Calcium, and Magnesium. This will most definitely be the last big set of comparison testing I'll be doing as it covers all the basics of what I at least periodically test for along with the Nitrate, and PO4 shootouts done previously.

My previous comparison testing has included:

An older one where I compared API and Salifert Calcium and Alkalinity tests kits
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1927189

A Nitrate Test kit shootout between NYOS, Salifert, RedSea Pro, and API
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2538789

A PO4 test kit shootout between Nyos, Elos Pro, Salifert, Hanna Checkers x2, and Seachem.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2540702

Me vs. Triton
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2537234

All the Above along with AWT vs. Triton which also includes another follow up Triton test
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=24141851


This big 3 shoot out was a fairly involved set of comparisons and results were very, lets say, interesting to say the least. I've tried to be completely unbiased and open minded through all these tests but I will be completely honest going into this I had a fairly negative bias against the Red Sea Mg test kit. I did buy an entirely new kit to give it one more chance to prove me wrong as I did like the Red Sea Nitrate kit for it's easier ability to read into the high resolution at very low ranges and seemed accurate enough and comparable vs. other kits. Otherwise I had no high or low hopes for any of the other kits this time.

Everyone has certain parameters that they want to keep and along with every other comparison thread this one is no different. I just try to stay with in the recommended ranges as described by Randy Holmes-Farley here:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php


So, here they all are and the write up for each will follow.

[ReefWreak]

Grabbing the popcorn. Thanks for your awesome work on these comparison tests and sharing it with other hobbyists!

[jason2459]

To get started with just a couple basic parameters. Will be able to compare the Nitrates vs. AWT. Salinity and Phosphates vs. AWT and Triton (salinity estimated)


Salinity, pH, Temp via Apex probes:



Salinity also confirmed slightly over 35ppt near 36ppt via vitalsine/veegee refractometer.

I went with the Redsea Nitrate Pro kit as it does a good job at the lower ranges and was easier to read then the Salifert.

Nitrate: not detectable < 0.25


Phosphates:

8ppb phosphorous
0.0245ppm phosphates converted (8ppb * 3.066)/1000

[jason2459]

To start off will be the Red Sea Alk, Ca, Mg kits. Their packaging is always very nicely done and protective. This Reef Foundation Pro includes all three together. So, the price tag of around $50 isn't to bad considering plus you can buy the reagent refills so that's a big plus.





All three syringes already had tips installed and to make sure you don't mix them up are color coded. But I found the tips to not be on all the way. I also found all the syringes very touchy and easy to push in more then a single drip at a time.





Alkalinity

Starting with the alkalinity it was a straight forward titration with a single reagent waiting for the color to change. That change was very easy to detect and very apparent.

The resolution for Alk was a fairly impress 1ml = .05meq/L = 0.146 dKH

and an accuracy of ±0.025 meg/L

My results for this Alk test was 11.76dKH








Calcium
Another standard titration type test where you need to pay attention to the color changes. It was pretty easy and I found the color changes easy to see.

This kit also has a nice resolution of 5ppm
and accuracy of ±2.5 ppm (if accurate. )

There are 3 colors you might see and you wouldn't want to stop on purple/violet.

My results for the Calcium test was 470



Don't stop here


Now Stop





Magnesium
So, yeah guess what my results were.... I did this exactly as directions required and have seen the vids etc. You really have to watch the end point color which can come and go at which point you stop. Many other kits you keep going if the color changes back. Not this one. As soon as you see the color change to blue which may come after purple/violet you stop and it will turn back to purple.

I was actually able to capture this transition in picture


STOP here


It will most likely change to purple. Don't keep going



I went through an entire syringe and had to refill it but didn't go much further into it. My final test results for Mg with this kit was...2080!!!


I'm done with Red Sea Mg. Calcium, Alk, and Nitrate seem perfectly fine. I wasn't so impressed with the PO4.

[ReefTeacher]

Do you really think your Magnesium is 2080 ppm? I find my Red Sea kit reads unbelievably high each time. I have watched the video, read the boards, soaked the vial in white vinegar to eliminate calcium deposits, etc. I always read upwards of 1800ppm. Both Salifert and Elos read in the 1300-1400 range. I believe them as I have no reason to have such elevated levels. I have given up on the Red Sea Mag kit.

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by ReefTeacher

Do you really think your Magnesium is 2080 ppm? I find my Red Sea kit reads unbelievably high each time. I have watched the video, read the boards, soaked the vial in white vinegar to eliminate calcium deposits, etc. I always read upwards of 1800ppm. Both Salifert and Elos read in the 1300-1400 range. I believe them as I have no reason to have such elevated levels. I have given up on the Red Sea Mag kit.

No, absolutely not. Red Sea Mg has been the worse kit I've ever used. This is the 3rd or 4th new kit I've tried out now since they came out with the Pro series with tritrator.

I have more to write. Nyos, Elos, Salifert, API, and Hanna to come. Probably get through a couple of those tonight.

[jason2459]

These were the most painful tests to perform. Literally. But more of that later. I was really happy with the Elos PO4 Pro kit and if I didn't use the Hanna 736 ULR Checker that would be the kit I would use. So, I expected at least similar results here.

These do not come in a bundled package (Ca,Alk, and Mg) and AFAIK only the Red Sea does. I believe the Hanna Checkers have a bundle you can buy too but it's not quite the same and fairly expensive up front cost. Cost wise these were cheaper then the PO4 Pro kit with the Alkalinity kit being sub-$20 and the Ca and Mg kit being around $25-30. Which is slight more then what Salifert kits are individually and more then what Red Sea reagent refills cost.

All the Elos kits definitely want to make sure you hit the right end point. Once you hit what you think you see as the end point you're supposed to cap the vial and wait 30 seconds to see if the color remains the same. If it does then you're done. If it reverts back then keep going.

The visual picture instructions can be kind of confusing for what I just described. Make sure to read the written instructions for better clarification on what the images are showing you. Here's an example of the simplest test for Alk. Ca and Mg have the same last two steps to make sure the end point color is truly reached.




Alkalinity
Another very basic and easy kit to perform. Just like red sea and many others. Add some water to a vial, drop in some reagent and keep gently shaking/swirling to get it mixed in. Keep going until you hit that end point color. Once I hit that point I capped the vial with the cap it comes with and waited to see. I found the cap to this vial to be fairly loose.

The resolution is a simple .5dkh per drop. No charts needed if you remember to just count the number of drops until you hit your end point and half what you counted and you have your results in dkh. Easy enough.

My results here were 24 drops or 12dKH






Calcium

Keep in mind this marketing bullet point of Elos for all their kits
"Safe reagents": reagents and testing procedures are based on Low Risk Reagents. None of our test kits are based on Toxic Reagents.

I like how the SAFE REAGENTS are in quotes....

I like that this kit provides a simple high resolution and low resolution capabilities. If you just care to get with in 50ppm of what your calcium level is at you can do the high resolution. But you can choose to narrow down to a much higher resolution at 10ppm.

You basically use the low resolution method but stop short of where you think or know the end point to be. Say you know your calcium levels are over 450 but under 500. Just put in enough drops of the low resolution reagent to get to 450 which would be 9 drops (1 drop = 50ppm). Then move on to the high resolution reagent where 1 drop = 10ppm. Pretty slick and makes getting to the end point pretty quick. Drop in 9, swirl it around a bit, then start doing one drop at a time swirling between each drop.

There's two sides to their instruction slick for this (again the visual aid instructions can be kind of confusing for some until you do it at least once)



Back to those "SAFE REAGENTS". Well, I followed all instructions for all the kits to the T. So, once I hit what I saw as an end point color I tried capping it. Unlike the Alk kit cap the slid right in loosely the cap that came with the calcium kit was extremely tight in fact not just tight but too big.

This resulted in the vial breaking and getting the reagents all over my hands. Which I instantly felt that wonderful soapy feeling of the fatty acids in my skin melting away. Wonderful. At least they were safe enough to not do major damage other then irritation. Rinsed well for a while (10+ minutes) and even after that once my hands dried felt prickly.




After that I proceeded to do the test again and used the cap from the Alk kit this time which was more on the small side and fell right into place easily. I ended up getting the same results as the first time.

This kits calcium results were: 470

[jason2459]

Magnesium
Least favorite of the kits from elos I've used so far (besides getting burned by the Calcium reagents...). Not because of the results which seem good enough but just personally I didn't like it's 2 phase approach. Not a big deal and the kit seemed accurate enough.

With this kit you definitely want to read the instructions. You have two phases. You keep track of the number of drops from phase one to get to the end point color. Then do phase 2 (this kit should come with 2 vials for this) and count how many drops to get to it's end point. Then subtract the number you got from phase 2 from the number you got from phase 1. Then that number = your magnesium levels. The cap/stopper for this kit was tight but fit just right.

I was actually surprised that the Apex has this programmed into fusion for Elos. If you have an apex all these kits I've tested are available as a kit type in Apex Fusion. For the Elos Mg selection it asks how many drops for phase 1 and how many for phase 2 and it spits out your results.

And as you can see my Results were 1350




Phase (Fase) 1




Phase 2 just got the end point



So, overall all three seem fine but for the cost I'd probably pick different kits. They need to QC those vials and stoppers much better.

[jason2459]

I'll have to finish writing up the Nyos, Salifert, API, and Hanna along with getting the numbers together for easy comparisons tomorrow.

[iammrhappy]

nice! tagging along!

[jason2459]

The Nyos line brings another set of tests to market to choose from. The cost for them is slightly lower then Salifert with the Alk being the cheapest around $15 and Ca/Mg each costing around $20.

I kind have gotten mixed results with Nyos in both experience with the kits (Nitrate vs PO4) and now test results which I'll just dive into here. All kits were pretty basic and simple titration tests easy to perform.


Alkalinity
Nothing really special with this kit and lowest resolution besides API. Which for being twice the cost of API I'd expect at least better then 1dKH resolution.


Test results with this kit hit in line with the others at 12dKH






Calcium
This was pretty out there in terms of results so it will be interesting what Triton and AWT come back with for my Calcium levels and compare them to each of the test kits to see if this one or the others are closer.

The resolution of this kit is rather impressive at with in 5 ppm which is really good for a hobby kit. Totally opposite of the Alk kit's low resolution.


Results for this kit were 550 (had to refill the syringe)








Magnesium
I like this kit and see it as a good alternative to the Salifert Mg kit. Simple and easy to perform. Easy for me to see the color changes and results seem pretty reliable. But the color change part says it can be blue or gray so watch it. My end result came out grayish.

Resolution is a respectable 15ppm

Results with this kit came in at 1440









Alk I would skip for sure. If you need a quick low resolution kit there's API for cheaper. Calcium I'm curious how it's higher 550 number lines up vs. Triton's results. Mg I would seriously consider using again and cost is slightly cheaper then Salifert Mg kit.

[jason2459]

Salifert test kits have been around for a long time and I would consider a kind of gold standard for hobby grade kits. Costs are moderate with Alk being around $15-20, Calcium around $20-25, and Mg around $25-30.

Salifert kits have generally easy to follow instructions as they've been around so long that they've been edited many times over the years to be clearer. They also include direction for high and low resolution by cutting the samples and reagents in half which does help extend the number of tests that can be performed.

Over time some have mentioned issues with being able to tell the end point colors but as you'll see all the kits tested above have the same variations like calcium for instance will go through a couple color changes.

Alkalinity
This kit has a fairly high resolution of around .3dKH which is typically more then sufficient for most reefers. Though each drop is less but accuracy isn't guaranteed.

My results from this kit were 12.16dKH





Calcium
Just like with the Alk kit this has a difference in what it's resolution can be and what it's accuracy limit is. Each drop has a resolution 5ppm but Salifert has an accuracy of +/- 10ppm which is still more then good enough to know where your calcium levels are at.

The color changes with this I felt pretty easy to see and the violet vs. blue is very different.

My results for this kit were 470










Magnesium
This has always been my go to kit for Mg. It's been comparable in the past to Triton and AWT. Just like the other Salifert kits easy and clear instructions. Seems like people have had issues with seeing the end point color change. Instructions say to look for a blue or gray color. I usually see blue.

From my understanding this was specifically designed for saltwater to not allow other elements like Strontium to interfere with this kit. It also has a decent accuracy of 30ppm with each drop being around 15ppm.

My results came in at 1470






I've found all three of these over time to be consistent and more then accurate enough for me. Cost has usually kept me using other brands for Alk and Ca.

[jason2459]

I've heard lots of good things about this checker so decided to pick one up. I didn't get the calcium kit as it looked like way to much work and not nearly the favorable reviews as the Alk checker.

However, there is a recall going on right now for certain lot numbers that are for fairly current reagents as well. I just bought the Alk kit and the reagent it came with is on that recall list which was fairly disappointing.

Recall site
https://hannainst.wufoo.com/forms/w1hzjs2j1b4ejyu/

The Alk 755 checker has a really high resolution compared to all the other Alk kits so if that's a very high priority this could be an option.

It has a 1ppm resolution and an accuracy of ±5 ppm. That converts to a resolution of 0.056dKH and an accuracy of ±0.28dKH !!

Unlike the 736 ULR Phosphorous checker I have this was so much easier. I still took very careful care not to touch the vial with my fingers. But it's a liquid reagent instead of the powder packets which was very convenient and ease. No rushing and no waiting 3 minutes.

There's also a Reference Calibration kit for this but the device itself can not be calibrated by the end user.




My checker was well with in range for accuracy




Even with the reagent being on that recall my results were pretty consistent with all the other Alk tests.

Results with this checker was 217ppm which converts to 12.152dKH





Up until this point I haven't been convinced to move away from the API test kit for Alkalinity. API alk has always been consistent, easy to use, cheap, and more then accurate enough for me. I'm not concerned with high resolution for Alk. This checker was so easy and less messy (API stopper often leaks) I may keep using this device as it was so easy to use and quick.

[jason2459]

API has gotten a bad rap for being cheap. Well, yeah they are cheap with Calcium being around $8-12 and Alkalinity around $6-$10. What's wrong with that?

If you need high resolution to know what your alkalinity is to a decimal point and calcium with in 10ppm then no these are not the kit for you. But no reason to say that API is a terrible test kit. That's not what they were made for.

In fact over the years API has been my go to for Alk and Calcium and have had very consistent and reliable results that when cross checked have proven themselves accurate. My 2010 Salifert vs API link in the first post is one reference to this.

One thing to note is their vial markings may not be consistent or accurate. In the end though it doesn't really effect the end results much if any due to the fact these are not high resolution kits. I do use a syringe however to pull the 5ml but when I ever though to look seem fairly close to the lines.








Alkalinity
Can't be any easier. Drop by drop until you get a bright yellow. There will be a slight color change before that but usually about 1 more drop and you're at the end point.

Resolution and reading is a simple 1 drop = 1dKH

My results with this kit was 12


Calcium
Another very simple quick check on a basic parameter. Can easily give me around what my calcium levels are with a resolution of 20ppm.

With this kit and other tritrations for Ca you can short cut this by dripping in around 80% of the reagent before going drop by drop. End point here is again blue not the purple.

My results the other night were 500


I thought I had pictures taken of the start and end points but I guess not. Not sure what happen to them.

I know I'll continue to use the API calcium kit and most likely the Alk kit but that Hanna checker was very quick an easy as well.

[jason2459]

Temp: 76.7F
pH: 8.13

Salinity:
Apex and Veegee: 35.5ppt
AWT: TBD
Triton: TBD

Nitrates:
Redsea: undetectable < .25
AWT: TBD

Phosphates:
Hanna: 8ppb phosphorous = 0.0245ppm phosphates converted
AWT: TBD
Triton TBD

Alkalinity:
Red Sea: 11.76
Elos: 11.5
Nyos: 12
Salifert: 12.1
Hanna: 12.15
API: 12
AWT: TBD

Calcium:
Red Sea: 470
Elos: 470
Nyos: 550
Salifert: 470
API: 500
AWT: TBD
Triton: TBD

Magnesium:
Red Sea: 2080
Elos: 1350
Nyos: 1440
Salifert: 1470
AWT: TBD
Triton: TBD

[jason2459]

Red Sea Mg: Don't believe it for one second and will never use it again.

Calcium: Very curious where Triton and AWT come in with the calcium number. API hit's right in the middle of the results with 500 and Nyos being a high outlier.

Magnesium: I'm not confident in the Elos kit with it's multiple phases and not getting one of the phases wrong. All those reagents and steps just introduce to many variables that could cause interference. Improperly testing to reagents being off or bad. Red sea, already stated above. I'm done with it.

Alkalinity: Pick one any one. Really, they all lined up right with each other. Pick one you want and go with it. For me it's most likely going to still be API. Why do I need to know if my alkalinity is 11.76 or 12.15 when just saying 12 will do and for me I'm in the process of bringing it down to around 10dKH. If I was going for a ULNS system, however you want to define that, I would look at the Hanna for the high resolution and wanting to keep alk as low and close to 7-8 as possible.

AWT and Triton samples were shipped out yesterday and on their way. I should have results by around this time next week or the beginning of the week after that.

[jason2459]

Unique corals got my Triton samples yesterday. President's day slowed that down.

And it looks like Aquamedic Water Testing has my samples as well. My account test result page updated but results aren't posted yet. Maybe tomorrow.

[chilli_reef]

Following along.....
Thanks for doing this ☺

[azjohnny]

All three syringes already had tips installed and to make sure you don't mix them up are color coded. But I found the tips to not be on all the way. I also found all the syringes very touchy and easy to push in more then a single drip at a time.

Try using some silicone lube on the rubber part of the plunger that makes contact with the inside of the syringe. It will be much smoother. I also use it on all o rings

You can get it in the plumbing section at loews and this
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...fm?pcatid=9708

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by azjohnny

Try using some silicone lube on the rubber part of the plunger that makes contact with the inside of the syringe. It will be much smoother. I also use it on all o rings

You can get it in the plumbing section at loews and this
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...fm?pcatid=9708

Smoothness wasn't a problem at all with them. They were very smooth and very easy to push. To much so a tiny bit of a push often unleashed more then one drop. I stopped using my thumb as it was harder for me to control the pressure applied.

[bitwise]

It looks like ELOS has improved some of their kits. I never had a colored CA quick reference card. Actually, for the kits I had the written instructions and quick reference card had inconsistencies!

[jason2459]

So, looks like Salifert has a price drop across all their kits. At least through Bulk Reef Supply email I just got.

[USC-fan]

Awesome thread!!!

Been using the red sea mag. Guess i will buy a new kit. back to Salifert.

Really like the red sea pro kits. Easy to store and easy to use. Too bad the mag is off. Make me wonder what the real mag readings in my tank are....off to the store.

[jason2459]

What were you reading?


After I get the Triton results in I'll probably do another round of Mg and Ca testing with the kit furthest from their results vs the kit closest.

[USC-fan]

MAG was around 1350 late month with red sea pro kit.