Calcium Reactor vs. Two-part System

[RichConley]

jamn, do you use those APT pumps?

I've been looking at the $78 pumps from omega.com... comparable?

[jdieck]

Originally posted by RichConley
Jdieck, I dont know if that write up is yours, or something you pasted, but thanks for posting it (and writing it?). Very informative.
I would never dare to copy and paste without mentioning the author. I went trough the exercise of finding the range of prices, costs, calculate the yields prepare the spreadsheets and make the charts. All this just for fun so if something is wrong, beers are on me

I completely disagree with the "convenience factor" of a calcium reactor. They are significantly less convenient than automated 2-part.
I run an MTC ProCal clone, and frankly, its a pain in the butt.
Definition of things like, love, hope, convenience, they all have a mere personal meaning. In this case, having tested different designs and setups and having gone trough plenty of issues posted by aquarists, I can attest to the fact that some reactors are really a pain in the butt but I also found that most of the time it has to do with the way the combination of elements is put together.
I also run a clone of the MTC Procal and found it to be much of set up and forget, basically I top off media when 1/4 of it has been consumed and clean it all once a year.
It is true that setting up a calcium reactor is difficult some times but once set up and debugged it can really be a forget kind of thing.
That is why I tried to be clear by mentioning "a properly sized and set up reactor" which given the mostly poor instructions from most manufacturers I have to agree is not the easiest of tasks if done for the first time.

As to the cost analysis, is the cost of CO2 included in there? Is also the increased cost due to extra electrical usage? Theres a big difference between running the Iwaki 20 on my reactor, and a peristaltic pump that runs an hour a day.
As I mentioned there is a large range of variability in the data given the different designs and set ups. The power of the recirculation pump is included, I used an average of $25 US per year as with the smaller pumps the power cost is in the range of $10.00 to up to $50 assuming there are more reactors on the lower side than on the higher. For our specific case (I also run an Iwaki 20RT) the pump consumes 50.6 watts which operating 24/7 will consume 443 kw per year which at a power rate of 90 mils will be an annual cost of power of $39.90
BTW I did not included any power for peristaltics in the case of them used for kalk or two part.
The cost of CO2 is also included and ranged from $1.00 per pound up to $4.00 per pound which given the yields turns out at 2 cents per dKh per 100 gal.

How is the initial cost calculated on the chart?
Were there is no initial investment like in the case of dripping Kalk or manual addition of two part there is no initial cost so the graph starts at zero for zero consumption.
When there is an initial investment I assumed that the equipment will last an average of 5 years so the annual cost of the investment is assumed at 1/5th that of the cost of the setup.
For our example of the calcium reactor, the lowest cost setup I could come up with was $395.00 and the fanciest at $1,180.00 (as I mentioned there is a lot of variability)so I used an average cost for the setup of $787.50 for an annual cost of $157.50 for the setup only.

Rover, your point is valid (in that Calcium Reactor media is the same elements as corals use.)

What should be considered though, is that a lot of the things we use for 2-part... like Mag Flake are refined from seawater sources, so their "impurities" may contribute in the same was as the "impurities" in Ca Reactor media.
Just a word of caution here. Although the brine/lime process is considered non synthetic, the solvay or acid reduction process is considered synthetic, this is why there could be a wide range of purity from different manufacturers.

[jbplay]

I use the two-head dosing pump from twopartsolution.com($120), digital timer from Home Depot($17), 10 feet of 1.6mm od hose from two part($10), and two milk jugs(free). I could've put together my own 2 part from scratch, but twopartsolution makes it too easy, so $22 for 6 gallons of that. I have the time turn it on at 3AM when my ph has dropped and it runs for 50 minutes with Alk going into the skimmer area at the beginning of my sump and CA going in by the return pump. It only adds .75ml per minute of each, so no precipitation that I can see. This is a pretty easy setup. I was dosing it by hand at night, but this takes care of that. As my SPS and clams grow, it's easy enough to lengthen the dosing period(I also have an MRC Kalkwasser reactor with my top off) to increase CA and Alk. I check Mg every few weeks and add that by hand when necessary.

[jdieck]

Originally posted by Rovert
Interesting points. Just to 'noodle' this for a minute, here are my initial thoughts.

1) I think we need to be entirely clear that the 2-part solution is really a 3-part system, because you need to dose Mg also. So, to imply that you only need to factor the cost and convenience of two additives is misleading, because it's three, not two.

Because with only few exceptions (Like some dolomite added to a Ca reactor) you need to supplement magnesium reagardless of the supplementation method the cost of it it is really not a factor comparison wise.

[RichConley]

"I would never dare to copy and paste without mentioning the author. I went trough the exercise of finding the range of prices, costs, calculate the yields prepare the spreadsheets and make the charts. All this just for fun so if something is wrong, beers are on me "

It seemed familiar... which probably means you posted it elsewhere and I read it there.

I'll PM you later about the ProCal... I gotta be doing something wrong with this thing.

[jdieck]

If I remember well the cost charts I am posting for the first time. I have used the evaporation chart several times.

Welcome to the PM, if there is anything I can do to help.

[jman77]

Hi Rich,

I actually dose manually ... but i do know a few people that use that pump and i've heard no complaints. You can get the pump setup to does up to 5.6 ml /min so that is an added +. Check out the link below.

hxxp://www.bharada.com/aquaria_hardware.html#dosingpumps

[dhnguyen]

Originally posted by Rovert
Interesting points. Just to 'noodle' this for a minute, here are my initial thoughts.

1) I think we need to be entirely clear that the 2-part solution is really a 3-part system, because you need to dose Mg also. So, to imply that you only need to factor the cost and convenience of two additives is misleading, because it's three, not two....

Um... You need to dose Mg also for a Ca. Reactor setup unless your media used has Mg in it.


EDIT- Nevermind I just saw that jdieck already pointed this out previously.

[Herpervet]

Originally posted by jdieck
Because with only few exceptions (Like some dolomite added to a Ca reactor) you need to supplement magnesium reagardless of the supplementation method the cost of it it is really not a factor comparison wise.

Slight digression:

Anyone have a good mailorder source for dolomite to add to my reactor?

I have looked around town and none of the nurseries carry it.

[Rovert]

Originally posted by RichConley
Its not, but comparing a Korralin reactor to a Litermeter is silly. One is the cheapest piece in its sector, the other is the most expensive... If you're going to compare "advanced," compared advanced.

I don't know where you're getting your information, but the Korallin reactor is at neither the high nor low end of the price spectrum, but does enjoy a reputation for being a very solid value for the money. I've seen reactors for $60, and I've seen reactors for $600 and up. Therefore, if you're going to throw a rock at my example, be sure you're comparing apples to apples yourself, please. In fact that brings me to the next point...

Originally posted by jman77
Now to say DIY is not ridiculously cheaper, is well , ridiculous

Well, that's not the comparison I was making, but now that you bring it up, you've made a good point. One of the claimed benefits of the dosing system is the cost of entry, which is significantly diminished if you make your own reactor.

As to the Mg dosing, there are reactor media brands that do have Mg in them, but that's a decent point and since it's not really much of a factor, I'll take it out of the decision matrix. However, the other points still weigh on my mind.

[fishdoc11]

When I priced reactors I came up with similar numbers to what Rich stated earlier in the thread.

High end 2 part ~ $600
High end Ca Rx ~ $1000

FWIW in all my research I decided on a Geo reactor(MRC was second) if that helps any....and poor George has answered a bunch of my questions on reactors and skimmers without my spending a dime

Chris

[foshizzle]

nevermind, i type too slow

[rleechb]

Well, that's not the comparison I was making, but now that you bring it up, you've made a good point. One of the claimed benefits of the dosing system is the cost of entry, which is significantly diminished if you make your own reactor.

Here was my cost comparison:

REACTOR -

Reeftek Reactor: $300
Regulator: $95
Co2 Equipment: $80
Media: $40
Feed pump: $20
pH controller: $150

Total: $685


2 Part -

Pump: $139 (Price was recently raised to $199 per innovativeaquatics).

2 part: ~ $20 total
2 One Gallon Containers ~ $2

Total: $161


Pretty big price difference. 2 part, as previously mentioned, was significantly easier to setup/maintain, as well. As far a "trace elements" are considered, I would be very, very surprised if you noticed any sort of difference in your tank. If you didn't do water changes for a year, maybe you'd run into "trace element" issues, but your problems would probably extend beyond the lack of trace elements.

Seriously, if you're really concerned about dosing 2-part being unnatural, then you should also consider your lighting, skimming, synthetic salt, etc.

[jdieck]

For those that have space for a good sized reservoir, keep in mind that dosing Kalk trough a reservoir and a peristaltic pump could be even cheaper than two part.

[rleechb]

I think kalk is a good supplement to a CA reactor, due to pH being lowered by co2. However, kalk by itself isn't too hot, ime... you either end up with too much kalk being dosed along with evaporation (low ca/alk demands) or not enough (which warrants using 2 part). In the latter situation, you might as well dose the 2 part w/o kalk.

[Rovert]

Originally posted by rleechb
Here was my cost comparison:

REACTOR -

Reeftek Reactor: $300
Regulator: $95
Co2 Equipment: $80
Media: $40
Feed pump: $20
pH controller: $150

Total: $685


2 Part -

Pump: $139 (Price was recently raised to $199 per innovativeaquatics).

2 part: ~ $20 total
2 One Gallon Containers ~ $2

Total: $161

... Seriously, if you're really concerned about dosing 2-part being unnatural, then you should also consider your lighting, skimming, synthetic salt, etc.

Once again I think this comparison is evasive. I don't see a pH probe in the 2 part system. Apples with apples, please. Yes, the reactor setup more expensive, but there is an argument to be made that there are convenience benefits that the incremental price difference offers.

I also don't recall using the word "unnatural" with regard to the 2 part component chemicals. What I did say was:

Therefore, it seems to me that a reactor will tend to more closely and accurately replicate nature's process.

I simply pointed out that there seems to be a greater opportunity to introduce variability in the strength (concentration) of the materials, and a greater risk of introducing impurities. But you again raise a good point, and all you need to do is to look at the various reviews of synthetic salt mixes and their respective components to answer your own question about the potential risks of imbalanced or impure chemicals.

Furthermore because the reactor was using exactly the core components that nature used herself to create the coral in the first place, that it more closely replicated the process in reverse, rather than a 2 part system.

I stand by these two points. How significant they are in the grand scheme of things, is anyone's guess, though. They might not amount to any difference in tank health at all. But I think it's worth asking the question.

[MJAnderson]

Originally posted by rleechb
I think kalk is a good supplement to a CA reactor, due to pH being lowered by co2. However, kalk by itself isn't too hot, ime... you either end up with too much kalk being dosed along with evaporation (low ca/alk demands) or not enough (which warrants using 2 part). In the latter situation, you might as well dose the 2 part w/o kalk.

Kalk is really helpful in keeping PH up. I have a new house (read 'airtight') and without kalk I would have a hard time above 8.

[RichConley]

Originally posted by Rovert
Once again I think this comparison is evasive. I don't see a pH probe in the 2 part system. Apples with apples, please. .

But theres no NEED to run a pH probe in a 2 part system. If you bake the baking soda, theres no pH effect.

[Rovert]

Originally posted by RichConley
But theres no NEED to run a pH probe in a 2 part system. If you bake the baking soda, theres no pH effect.

Ah. So now we're baking the soda. Two parts and cooking? Suddenly things just got more complicated. Hmmmm... I dunnow.. would a touch of garlic and some cajun spices help?

Could it not be argued that once set up, that there's no need for a pH probe in a reactor system? Sure, you have to test pH during the setup process, but once done, it's over. For that, one doesn't need a probe, either. However in my case, my tank pH tends to run a tad high anyway, so the reducing effect is welcome. Furthermore, we ought to be periodically checking our tank pH anyway, so I don't see this as a necessary expenditure.

Again, I'm just trying to get my head around all this. The 2 part systems really do have a lot going for them, and I've been using B-Ionic for years, but it has some drawbacks, and I'm considering my alternatives.

[steve the plumb]

ph probe and meter are around $100 you are still less than a reactor.If you think that you are not going to mess with the reactor you are mistaken.Never mind the pump that can fail.My buddy had the Deltec that failed after 4 months and he was lucky the store owner gave him another reactor(after 3 weeks) because he had to order the pump.Ask Anthony Calfo what he thinks of them and there reliability.

[Rovert]

Originally posted by steve the plumb
ph probe and meter are around $100 you are still less than a reactor.If you think that you are not going to mess with the reactor you are mistaken.Never mind the pump that can fail.My buddy had the Deltec that failed after 4 months and he was lucky the store owner gave him another reactor(after 3 weeks) because he had to order the pump.Ask Anthony Calfo what he thinks of them and there reliability.

Steve, again, apples to apples, please.

To suggest that you don't have to twaddle with drip rate or dosing pumps in a 2 part solution is irresponsibly misleading. Dripping 2-part can easily drive pH out of sight if you don't bake the soda, which means you have to monitor tank pH just the same as you do with a reactor. Everything in this hobby requires some sort of tweaking. Period.

Also, I find it amusing that the scenario you indicate would happen. Unless your friend broke the reactor housing, the pump they use is an off-the-shelf Eheim. They're available everywhere. Dosing pumps can fail, too.

I think everyone is clear on the fact that a reactor setup will cost more than plastic jugs and a couple dosing pumps and controllers to activate them. What's not been made clear is that the additional cost brings some benefits, though perhaps those benefits don't mean much to the 2 part guys, which is why you chose that route. And what's not fair is to compare DIY 2 part systems to branded reactors. Not once has there been a comparison to a DIY reactor. So that's not entirely forthright.

What has not been made clear which I've learned so far is that with the cost savings seems to come a sacrifice of convenience, and what I perceive to be some very legitimate questions about component quality and consistency. There are also valid points to be made for a reactor that have not been presented fairly.

I think it's misleading to imply that 2 part systems are completely care-free and without their own share of risks and sacrifices of convenience, which is the picture that's being painted here. Case in point, it wasn't until page 4 of this dialog (nearly page 5, at the rate we're going) that the baking of one component came up. Funny how that didn't rear its head until now.

I hoped for an honest assessment of the pros and cons of each type of strategy. What I feel hasn't been done here thoroughly is the presentation of the downsides of a 2 part system, and what I perceive to be an exaggeration of the cost and complexity of a reactor.

For some of you, you are more comfortable with one than the other. For instance, fishdoc11 has been very clear that he's voicing his opinion based on his preferences and needs. But the way it's been presented here by some unfairly skews a reader to a 2 part system which may not be what they need based on their tank and lifestyle.

[steve the plumb]

I ran the 2 part on my 150 for over 2 years.I did use kalk only because of my low Ph.I never messed with the doser unit.Only when I added 3 or 4 more corals did I need to adjust the dosage and that wasn't constant.More often than not I left the doser alone for several months.Once you know your tanks needs its pretty much leave it alone.You may have to change the time to dose more but I can tell you for the most part I would test 3 times per week and my readings were pretty much the same.I never fiddle with the thing.I used the aqua medic reef doser.My buddy will tell you the same thing it works great.I will be using the same method on my large tank.It will however be interesting to see how much is needed on a large tank.Yes it is a bit of a pain to bake the baking soda but if your ph is low you should bake it if your ph is high or regular you don't need to bake it.Like I said on a large tank(300 plus 100 gal sump) I don't know once the tank is full of corals how much of the 2 part I will need.I think if it gets to the point where I need 1 gallon per day of each it would be a real pain to do so but I don't think I will need more than 1 gal per week based on my old tank and its needs

[newmoon]

Originally posted by RichConley
But theres no NEED to run a pH probe in a 2 part system. If you bake the baking soda, theres no pH effect.

Can you explain this "baking" process?

cheers

[steve the plumb]

You bake the baking soda in the oven at 350 for one hour.It drys the baking soda or gets as much of the humidity out.Its more for people that have a low ph(like myself)If your ph is normal to high you don't need to bake it.Its even easier then less preperation.I used to bake a pound or two at a time and it was fairly simple.You can then make your batch of cal and alk and store it.I used to top off my jugs at the end of each week

[rykwong]

Does it make a big difference if you use for the alk component sodium bicarbonate or sodium carbonate? Supposedly the sodium bicarbonate lowers pH and the sodium carbonate raises the pH. Is it significant? Thanks!