Phosphates keep rising back!!

[Jabbar.reefer]

Hey All,

My tank is a 2+ years old 150Gal Mixed Reef, with medium to heavy bioload. I use Maxspect Razor 320W with 4 ATI 54W T5s. Filtration is Bubble Magus Curve 7 Skimmer, 15Gal Display Fuge, 5Gal in sump fuge, chaeto growth is great, 2 Marine Pure blocks and a fair amount of rock in the DT. Phosban reactor with rowa. Flow is great, I brought down my nitrates from 50ppm to 2-5 ppm by using NO3PO4X, dosing Aquaforests Components 123+ and Kalk in ATO to keep the PH at 8.1-8.2.

My Phosphates were doing okay as I was using Rowaphos continously and SPS were showing decent growth. But one fine day I ran out of Rowa and had some old GFO on hand so I put it in. And to my surprise when I checked a few weeks later for phosphates as the glass was getting algae more frequently it was sitting at 1.86 ppm!!

Since then, I’ve tried all the recipes in the book, Lanthanum, Extra Rowa, high light for fuge and even replacing rowa more frequently as the phosphates keep rising.

Lanthanum on the first dose of 2ml, brought it down by .8ppm the next day and I was having fresh rowa in the reactor. But to my demise the phosphates start rising again, currently I’m at .92 ppm as per today’s test and yesterday it was .85 ppm.

Can anyone show me the light on what’s happening here, my source water is RODI and I checked and got 0 phos in it. Rowa works for one day when I out a fresh batch in but then it seems to not be working and the phos keep rising back up, even if the rocks are leaching back what they have absorbed, is it normal for them to leach .07 ppm of phos per day?!

Corals seem to not be affected but growth has stopped!

Alk is at 8.1-8.2, Cal 440-450, Mag- 1320-1350, Temp- 26-27 Celcius, SG- 1.026.

Please help!!!

[mcgyvr]

Put simply... Import > Export
I'd bet overfeeding is the cause..

With phosphate levels that bad you can exhaust the GFO in hours or less....
If the output from the reactor is not zero the GFO is likely exhausted already..

[Sk8r]

Possibly it's slowly leaching out of your rock. This can happen with some limestones. I had an insane chain of problems including that, and finally did a round of reeflux, which has worked a great improvement. What it does with the spare phosphate, I don't know, but certainly I collected a massive lot of crud in skimmer and socks.

[Jabbar.reefer]

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

Put simply... Import > Export
I'd bet overfeeding is the cause..

With phosphate levels that bad you can exhaust the GFO in hours or less....
If the output from the reactor is not zero the GFO is likely exhausted already..

I’ve always fed 2-3 times a day in small amounts, even when I had phos around .05 ppm as My tangs start nipping on the acans and trachys if not fed. Plus I have a school of Anthias to keep alive but I make sure all the food gets eaten and not blown away to rot.

[Jabbar.reefer]

Originally Posted by Sk8r

Possibly it's slowly leaching out of your rock. This can happen with some limestones. I had an insane chain of problems including that, and finally did a round of reeflux, which has worked a great improvement. What it does with the spare phosphate, I don't know, but certainly I collected a massive lot of crud in skimmer and socks.

Can you put some more light on this reeflux you’re referring to, I’ve not heard of it before.

[Jabbar.reefer]

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

Put simply... Import > Export
I'd bet overfeeding is the cause..

With phosphate levels that bad you can exhaust the GFO in hours or less....
If the output from the reactor is not zero the GFO is likely exhausted already..

As per the labels and my experience with rowa, 100ml is supposed to remove 3ppm of phos from 100 Gal, I’m using more than 400ml is it possible to get exhausted that quick?!

[reefgeezer]

You have a lot of things in your system that are effective at reducing nitrate. You may not have much that deals effectively with phosphate except the Rowaphos. That gets exhausted quickly when phosphates are high.

The biological processes in the tank release phosphate from food whether it is eaten or not. More life or food = more phosphate input. In addition, the rock binds phosphate in equilibrium to the phosphate level in the water. When levels rise it binds it, when levels drop it leaches it.

Your choices are limited if you want to keep your bioload/feeding schedule. These aren't in any particular order of preference.

1. Lanthanum Chloride
2. Lots of Rowaphos, or other GFO, changed often.
3. Way, way bigger macroalgae fuge, macroalgae reactor, ATS, etc.
4. Add nitrate so that carbon dosing (your NOPOX or just plain old vinegar) will more effectively reduce phosphate.

One last thing to check is your test kit. If it's a Hanna, replacing the test tubes might give you a much lower reading. They get scratched/etched over time and the readings increase. They are available at BRS for a couple of bucks.

[sfdan]

What test kit are you using? Those are extremely high numbers for phosphate.

Rocks will leach quite a bit, they basically are sponges for phosphate. When phosphate is high they'll absorb it, and when the levels lowers they'll leach it back. I'd say this is a benefit because phosphate is a very important nutrient in your aquarium and you don't want it wildly swinging around from extremely high to 0 in a day.

But assuming your kit is right, as people have said it is purely an import vs export problem. Chaeto will absorb phosphates. What kind of light do you have on your chaeto and what is the light cycle? Lanthanum would also work, but I suggest instead of trying to get it from 1ppm to 0 in a day, I would dose whatever the minimum is necessary for phosphate to start going down, and continue doing that until phosphate gets to the level you want. Maybe it will take a few weeks or a month, but that is what you want. All good things in a reef tank happen slowly.

When I was soaking my dry rock and dosing Lanthanum to lower the phosphate level, it took about a month to go from ~1ppm to ~0.10 ppm when I was overdosing Lanthanum every other day. If you levels are truly >1ppm, it is going to take a while for your rocks to fully leach it all back.

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Originally Posted by Jabbar.reefer

Can you put some more light on this reeflux you’re referring to, I’ve not heard of it before.

Reeflux is a brand name of fluconazole which is an antifungal medication. It is sometimes used to tread hair algae or bryopsis infestations in reef aquariums. It won't solve a phosphate problem. Unless you have a fungal infection problem or an overgrowth of pest algae you haven't told us about, you should not use it.

[Jabbar.reefer]

I’m using Hanna ULR Phospate Checker, the test tubes are fairly new as I have a whole bunch of them, and I tested me Fresh Salt Mix which read 0.00 so I know the test kit is fine. I’m using a 300W single chip full spectrum light on my display fuge and a 36W PLL light on my sump fuge. The display fuge gets light from 8am to 10pm and the sump fuge is lighted on a reverse photo period of 6pm to 8am.

[Jabbar.reefer]

Originally Posted by der_wille_zur_macht

Reeflux is a brand name of fluconazole which is an antifungal medication. It is sometimes used to tread hair algae or bryopsis infestations in reef aquariums. It won't solve a phosphate problem. Unless you have a fungal infection problem or an overgrowth of pest algae you haven't told us about, you should not use it.

To my surprise, such high numbers of phosphates yet no algae, just some brown algae on sand and glass.

[der_wille_zur_macht]

You mention a huge reduction in nitrate. How long ago did you accomplish that?

As mentioned above, some phosphate reduction approaches depend on nitrate and can be limited if it's too low - for example macro algae growth. I've had cases where I had to dose nitrate in order to restore balance and get phosphate to drop. I feel like a lot of cases of "old tank syndrome" or "the rocks are leeching phosphate" are probably more likely due to some other nutrient (nitrogen or carbon) limiting a process that used to consume phosphate. Heck, even coral growth will consume phosphate. If your corals are limited by some other factor that could be contributing to the rise in phosphate.

Or just forget all of the above and use LC as it's about the most independent and straightforward method...

[Jabbar.reefer]

Originally Posted by reefgeezer

You have a lot of things in your system that are effective at reducing nitrate. You may not have much that deals effectively with phosphate except the Rowaphos. That gets exhausted quickly when phosphates are high.

The biological processes in the tank release phosphate from food whether it is eaten or not. More life or food = more phosphate input. In addition, the rock binds phosphate in equilibrium to the phosphate level in the water. When levels rise it binds it, when levels drop it leaches it.

Your choices are limited if you want to keep your bioload/feeding schedule. These aren't in any particular order of preference.

1. Lanthanum Chloride
2. Lots of Rowaphos, or other GFO, changed often.
3. Way, way bigger macroalgae fuge, macroalgae reactor, ATS, etc.
4. Add nitrate so that carbon dosing (your NOPOX or just plain old vinegar) will more effectively reduce phosphate.

One last thing to check is your test kit. If it's a Hanna, replacing the test tubes might give you a much lower reading. They get scratched/etched over time and the readings increase. They are available at BRS for a couple of bucks.

I’ve used everything except dosing nitrites for NOPOX to work better, but my question is can 400-500 ml of Rowa be exhausted without even making a dent in the phosphate concentration? And If the rocks are leaching, would they keep leaching about 0.07 ppm every day for three weeks (which is the time since I’ve been trying to reduce and seeing a rise everyday).

Lanthanum does work, it precipitated out the phos and the test proved for it the next day. But then it started rising again rapidly, and I don’t think lanthanum is a sustainable solution. So, Summing up, I’m best with the methods I’m alreayd using. And I forgot to mention that I’m also doing a 20% WC weekly.

And honestly, I don’t think I’m feeding that much to increase the levels exponentially.

[Jabbar.reefer]

Originally Posted by der_wille_zur_macht

You mention a huge reduction in nitrate. How long ago did you accomplish that?

As mentioned above, some phosphate reduction approaches depend on nitrate and can be limited if it's too low - for example macro algae growth. I've had cases where I had to dose nitrate in order to restore balance and get phosphate to drop. I feel like a lot of cases of "old tank syndrome" or "the rocks are leeching phosphate" are probably more likely due to some other nutrient (nitrogen or carbon) limiting a process that used to consume phosphate. Heck, even coral growth will consume phosphate. If your corals are limited by some other factor that could be contributing to the rise in phosphate.

Or just forget all of the above and use LC as it's about the most independent and straightforward method...

I’m fine with using all the methods, but my concern is for how long?

All I’m stressed about is if this problem would pertain in my tank throughout the lifespan of it? Coz I’m not reducing bioload, feeding is necessary as my tangs nip coral if underfed, so is this the cycle I’m going to follow throughout the hobby?!

[reefgeezer]

There are a couple reasons the Rowa might not be working. It could be exhausted or channeling/clogging inside the reactor keeping the water from being exposed to all of the media. 400-500 ml is quite a bit. That's gotta be a reactor full. It may be clogging/channeling. Can you try using less and changing very often?

I'm not sure how fast phosphate can leach from rock, but if you had very high levels for an extended period, it wouldn't surprise me if it did so quicker than we might expect. I think .07 per day would not be too much if there is a decent amount of rock in the tank.

Lots of people have had to fight this battle. I saw a big azz reactor for sale in the sale forum, A big DIY cheato reactor might do a lot more than your little fuge.

[Jabbar.reefer]

I’ve put in Seachem Phosguard as one my my friends suggested that.
He says the chaeto must be using iron from the Rowa to grow. So try n aluminium based media. Let’s hope for the best. I’ll check back in 4 days. Thanks Guys for the help.

Worst come to worst, I’ll use a Reef Octopus biopellet reactor which I have for chaeto growth.

[reefgeezer]

Originally Posted by Jabbar.reefer

I’ve put in Seachem Phosguard as one my my friends suggested that.
He says the chaeto must be using iron from the Rowa to grow. So try n aluminium based media. Let’s hope for the best. I’ll check back in 4 days. Thanks Guys for the help.

Worst come to worst, I’ll use a Reef Octopus biopellet reactor which I have for chaeto growth.

Iron is a good thing. The Cheato needs it to grow. Cheato uses phosphate in its growth process when not limited by nitrates, iron, or other things.. There are even some who elevate iron levels to combat phosphates. Aluminum based phosphate removers will leach phosphate back into the tank when exhausted. Vhange it often.

[Jabbar.reefer]

Quick update, nothing seems to work, third day on Phosguard and the levels just keep rising
It was .52 day before and today I tested and it came out .69.

What should I do?!!

I’m feeding just enough so that my tangs don’t nip the corals.

Have put in a fresh batch of seachem matrix carbon to absorb all the chemicals being leached.

[Jabbar.reefer]

Can I get Randy to reply on this thread. I could really use some expert help as I including all of my reefing friends are experiencing this issue for the first time.

[reefgeezer]

I'll suggest one last thing...

In the time period where the phosphates have been testing high, have you put anything new in the tank? I'm wondering if there may be something that is causing your test kit to provide a false reading or actually leaching phosphorous. I'm thinking of things like rocks, decorations, filter pads, filter blocks, & etc., or sand. Even new additives or food could be part of the problem. Can you think of anything?

I'll leave it up to the experts now and follow along in case we've forgot something. Good luck.

[Jabbar.reefer]

Originally Posted by reefgeezer

I'll suggest one last thing...

In the time period where the phosphates have been testing high, have you put anything new in the tank? I'm wondering if there may be something that is causing your test kit to provide a false reading or actually leaching phosphorous. I'm thinking of things like rocks, decorations, filter pads, filter blocks, & etc., or sand. Even new additives or food could be part of the problem. Can you think of anything?

I'll leave it up to the experts now and follow along in case we've forgot something. Good luck.

Nothing that I can actively think of!

That’s what I was wondering, rather than treating the problem, If I would have found the source it would have been the best and I would have saved a lot of $$$

Now that I cannot find or think of anything that can leach phosphates to this level in the tank, I don’t know what I’m going to do.

[reefgeezer]

Think back, what changes did you make to drive down the nitrates. Not what could be leaching phosphates, just what changed. If you can think of anything and you don't know exactly what it is, remove it and see what happens in the next few weeks. For example, when did you add the Marine Pure blocks?

If nothing stands out, I'd imagine the experts will tell you to pick a method i.e. GFO, Lanthanum Chloride, Carbon dosing with or without nitrate dosing, or a big cheato fuge or reactor, properly implement it... and stick with it. Whatever is driving phosphates up will take quite a while to resolve itself. Patience is required... nothing good happens fast in a reef tank.

[Uncle99]

1.What types of foods are you feeding during each of the three feeds.? How much each?
Frozen is good as it is mostly water. Review phosphate content of any other foods, some are very high.
I would reduce to 2 feeds, I have Anthais too and they do fine on 2 feeds.
2.Did you use a 1 micron filter pad when using the LC, then removed it in about 6 hours?
You want to lower phosphate to less than .09 using LC, then mop up/maintain with ROWA.
3.Rowaphos reccomends using their product in a filter bag (supplied). Reactors do not work as well with this product.

My take is the problem stems from an imbalance in the import/export ratio, yet, this should be manageable through water changes, carbon dosing, and some phosphate management.

I have no sump, no reactors, no fuge, and can manage the load with above processes, but it was about 14 months until a balance came to be. Now holding 5ppm nitrate and .04 phosphate. Rowa is not required anymore, but once a week I do use some LC.

Maybe that helps, anyways that my $0.02, good luck.

[Jabbar.reefer]

Problem has been solved guys!!
Thanks Everyone for the help!

I did a 20% WC just coz I had to vacuum the sandbed, had also put in some matrix carbon to absorb all the chemcials that might have been in the tank. Stopped NOPOX dosing.

There was one major suspect for leaching, I had put some knock off marine pure sheets made by some company called ocean free. Took those out as well.

Tested my phos today to be at 0.09.

Tank is still running rowa and phosguard(which shall be taken off in a few days)
Will be running carbon, rowa, purigen and my fuges for the long run.

Thanks again, Happy Reefing!!

[Dan_P]

Originally Posted by Jabbar.reefer

Can I get Randy to reply on this thread. I could really use some expert help as I including all of my reefing friends are experiencing this issue for the first time.

I think Randy has moved over to Reef 2 Reef.