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Old 08/22/2016, 07:04 AM   #26
JonezNReef
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Interesting thought... MM in a removable container (so it can be replaced if needed)in the bottom of the settling tank and allow detritus to settle on it to feed the fauna. Could be better than having LR in the settling tank and the fauna would still have somewhere to live in the settling tank.


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Old 08/22/2016, 10:03 AM   #27
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The Miracle Mud Settling Tank Reactor (MMSTR)?


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Old 08/22/2016, 11:01 AM   #28
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Lol


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Old 08/22/2016, 11:27 AM   #29
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The MuMSTR monster


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Old 08/22/2016, 04:12 PM   #30
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Miracle Mud is high in iron. In my 10 year old 75G Jaubert Plenum on top with 30G EcoSystem mud filter on bottom, I never replaced mud. I add iron regularly in dosing and with partial water changes.


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Old 08/22/2016, 06:07 PM   #31
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Hmmm... That's the second time someone here has mentioned using iron dosing. The first was in reference to not having to do water changes at all and using iron to precipitate out the phosphates.

What do you think iron is doing in your system?

Do you think MM is basically a giant slow GFO reactor?


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Old 08/23/2016, 07:12 AM   #32
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Unfortunately i dont quite understand the function of iron chemically but in basic marine bio courses we are shown huge bumps in biomass when iron is being deposited in the ocean (for example of the northwest coast of africa). Im sure someone here understands the chemistry but it does seem to indicate that iron is a limiting nutrient in the natural ocean system.

P.s. i dont actually dose iron and i dont have MM. Just my $0.02

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Old 08/23/2016, 07:17 AM   #33
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Also an intresting experiment was performed (illegally) by a billionaire named george russ. He dosed some bay in canada with iron. I believe it was all in an effort to combat climate change (more iron= more bio mass= less co2)
So i definitely do think there is some legitimacy to dosing iron. I just dont have specifics.

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Old 08/23/2016, 11:37 AM   #34
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Hmmm... That's the second time someone here has mentioned using iron dosing. The first was in reference to not having to do water changes at all and using iron to precipitate out the phosphates.

What do you think iron is doing in your system?

Do you think MM is basically a giant slow GFO reactor?

All organic life forms need iron. Iron uptake by marine algae is well documented. As well as iron uptake by bacteria.

My opinion of miracle mud is that it provides a matrix to grow worms and things. Yes, it would act as an iron reactor. There are several iron substrates manufactured by SeaChem for use in fresh water systems that work well for me. As a system tool, the Eco system mud filter refugium feed the tank by processing nutrients thru complex food webs.


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Old 08/23/2016, 12:05 PM   #35
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Agree on the food webs and fauna.
Agree on the uptake by algae and some bacteria.

Not sure how it helps clean the water beyond that.


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Old 08/23/2016, 01:27 PM   #36
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What does clean the water mean to you?

If I wanted to polish off the water for clarity because of DOC, I would use activated carbon.

If I wanted to polish off the water because of bacteria or phyto bloom, then I would use UV. as required and not continuously.


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Old 08/23/2016, 01:29 PM   #37
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Actively precipitate phosphates to close the nitrogen cycle to N2 gas.


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Old 08/23/2016, 01:39 PM   #38
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I am fairly convinced that water should not be polished excessively. I think that water carries nutrients to hungry mouths.


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Old 08/23/2016, 07:02 PM   #39
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That's a touchy one. MM has strong advocates and detractors, but I don't think it's the same as soft detritus or a silt bottom.

One element of MM is that it effectively doses the tank constantly with elements released from the mud. That's one reason it needs to be replenished. Whether its composition has food for fauna, I don't know.
Its consistency is soft like silt, but the composition is different.

Maybe a MM floor in a settling tank would feed the fauna in the MM?
I know its not the same chemically, but my impression is that, as subsea says, provides the right environment for critters that occupy that niche in nature.

From Schimek's writings, particle size is critical for sand (mud) beds.


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Old 08/24/2016, 01:03 PM   #40
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yes. I think MM provides different benefits.. dosing missing elements + creating a hospitable environment for fauna + precipitating phosphates + neutralizing nitrates + creating a food supply in the form for fauna plankton.

combining it with a detritus capturing settling tank may be a way to actively feed the machine


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Old 08/24/2016, 03:42 PM   #41
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Though there is only anecdotal evidence, I think you are right.

Subsea. You mentioned in your other thread that you have never bought Miracle Mud, but you run a filter. Did you DIY the mud portion? If so, what ingredients did you use?

Living in the middle of a continent, it's rather hard for me to just go grab some mud from the seashore.


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Old 08/30/2016, 01:34 PM   #42
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Though there is only anecdotal evidence, I think you are right.

Subsea. You mentioned in your other thread that you have never bought Miracle Mud, but you run a filter. Did you DIY the mud portion? If so, what ingredients did you use?

Living in the middle of a continent, it's rather hard for me to just go grab some mud from the seashore.

I purchased a mature 75G tank with an 30G ecosystem mud filter. I operated the system for ten years with zero mud replacement. During those ten years detritus accumulated with the depth increasing from 3/4" to 1"+. The mud felt spongy to the touch and was crawling with worms. Early this summer, because of an infestation of red planaria, I removed refugium from system. Everything was bleached and mud was thrown away. There are several reputable options including FORM (funky old reef mud). I also included a fresh water substrate from Seachem that is high in iron. Iron is vital to bacteria, macro and coral.


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Old 08/30/2016, 01:40 PM   #43
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yes. I think MM provides different benefits.. dosing missing elements + creating a hospitable environment for fauna + precipitating phosphates + neutralizing nitrates + creating a food supply in the form for fauna plankton.

combining it with a detritus capturing settling tank may be a way to actively feed the machine



Please explain how "magic mud" precipitates phosphates.

To my knowledge, dosing limewater precipitates phosphate in the form of calcium phosphate. This is often why cynobacteria proliferate with no phosphate in the water column.


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Old 08/30/2016, 01:50 PM   #44
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Actively precipitate phosphates to close the nitrogen cycle to N2 gas.

What does close the nitrogen cycle to N2 gas mean?

With respect to denitrification, it is faculative bacteria and reduction chemistry that completes the nitrogen cycle to be removed as a free gas. I see no connection to phosphate precipitation.


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Old 08/30/2016, 08:42 PM   #45
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they're two separate mechanisms. The theory is that the high iron in the MM precipitates phosphate. The depth of the mud allows denitrification in the anaerobic zones.

There's lots of debate around how MM works (or if it does)... I'm just listing the potential mechanisms


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Old 09/01/2016, 04:15 AM   #46
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This thread is circling around some topics that are near and dear to me. Not that I use or am thinking of using Miracle Mud (I am not), but in relation to phosphate precipitation.

I am at the beginning of a filtration build styled after the DyMiCo units. For the uninitiated, they are kind of a sand bed meets denitrification meets calcium reactor all in one using a controller. The filter should take care of the nitrate and Alk/Calcium, but I am left to deal with the phosphate using other means.

For this I plan to dose Iron Citrate. GlennF from the DSR technique has been using Iron Citrate to lower phosphate in the form of precipitated Iron Phosphate . Where I am struggling is deciding where to best apply the iron citrate. As I will not have a skimmer since these filters best known for generating water column plankton, exporting the precipitated iron phosphate in skimmate is out. One thing that I was thinking of doing is dosing the iron citrate directly into the anaerobic portion of the filter. The citrate is a carbon source and as I will be dosing carbon to power the denitrification, I should be able to substitute some of the normal carbon with the iron citrate.

This would leave precipitated iron phosphate in the lower portion of the filter, or at least I think it will. Do I ignore it and wait to export it until topping up the coarse media every couple of years that gets dissolved, or do I install a flush system into the bottom of the filter so that accumulated precipitate can be removed without tearing the filter apart? For that matter I am wondering how inert the iron phosphate will be and is there any danger of it getting re-introduced to the water column either through dissolving along with the calcium carbonate media or through bacterial action.

I may just have to take a wait and see attitude.

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Old 02/11/2020, 11:38 AM   #47
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Sorry to revive this thread, but any idea if a bean animal overflow would work on this type of mechanical filtration? My idea is to have bean animal drain from DT to a settling chamber (radial flow or swirl filter) and then to the below tank sump. Wondering if the plumbing would allow the full siphon to purge air from the line after a power outage and if water draining from the settling chamber into the main sump would be too loud and therefore defeat the whole purpose of a bean animal to begin with.


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Old 04/05/2020, 07:34 PM   #48
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Quote:
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As I will not have a skimmer since these filters best known for generating water column plankton
I'm getting back into reefing after a prolonged hiatus. Would you happen to have a link handy so I could read up on this method? How would you compare this to the Berlin method (which I had beautiful success with in the past)?


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Old 04/18/2020, 04:31 PM   #49
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the overflow mechanism and the settling mechanism are separate. You can mix and match and bean should work with a settling tank.


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Old 05/02/2020, 01:10 AM   #50
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Interesting idea... has anyone devised a more automated way of removing detritus from such a system? I would imagine a drain at the bottom of a tank might do this well.


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