AquaIllumination PAR Measurements - Page 5

CalmSeasQuest · 05/13/2010, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neelix

Yeah they sent me number 4 on Monday and they switched the blues to royal blues. They messed up they knew I had the regular blues. Now I have to wait till they get some in and I bet i'll have to ship the module back. The new royals look violet with a touch of pink which would be fine if they matched the other 3.

Sorry to hear about the mix-up neelix. Personally, I don't care for the overt purple/violet color of the SemiLEDs Royal blues used in the Maxspect (even though they provide great "pop".) I'm hoping that the tri-color Crees will be primarily blue with just a hint of the "fuzzy" violet color.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtma508

Wait till the tri-color pucks come out (supposedly this fall). One each royal blue, blue and warm white. Mixing these in with the standard pucks will give you just about any look you could want with a broader overall spectrum.

+1 Being able to mix pucks should give the opportunity to create whatever color balance desired.

CalmSeasQuest · 05/16/2010, 11:20 AM

Sanjay just completed an in depth PAR study on a number of LEDS fixtures, including the AquaIlluminations - The article is available at Advanced Aquarist Online at http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/5/aafeature2

Needless to say, nothing else even came close to the performance of the AIs

Jack07013 · 05/16/2010, 11:37 AM

I wouldnt be so sure... :-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by CalmSeasQuest

Needless to say, nothing else even came close to the performance of the AIs

CalmSeasQuest · 05/16/2010, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack07013

I wouldnt be so sure... :-)

I'm unsure what you're referring to, but Sanjay's tests clearly show the AIs produce significantly more PAR than any other fixture tested.

Perhaps you're referring to the Pacific Sun 120w BT EXs you're using on your tank? Those are incredible fixtures, but even they can't hang with the AI's at delivering PAR at depth. Pac Sun claims 241 PAR @ 24" using 120watts - Sanjay's independent testing of the AI's delivered 364 PAR @ 24" using only 75 watts.

There are lots of variables including coverage area, optics, and height above the water but it would be hard to beat the 3W Crees powered AIs using the 1W LEDS in the Pacific Sun.

That said, both deliver more than sufficient PAR and the software running the PS BTs looks very impressive.

Jack07013 · 05/16/2010, 12:42 PM

AI: 24 3W LED bulbs - total Wattage consumption according to the article 75W. at first look 24X3 = 72W would make sense, but... there is lose to heat production, electronics, driver efficiency (best one that I am aware of is around 93%) and also not related to wattage - focal lenses efficiency. if you do the math you will realize that AI offers 3W bulbs driven probably around 2.7 or 2.6W

If you read some interesting reports coming from InterZoo 2010 event in Nurenberg Germany that was held this weekend - there are some LED lamps that come with better results simply based on materials and technology used.
that's all.

CalmSeasQuest · 05/16/2010, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack07013

AI: 24 3W LED bulbs - total Wattage consumption according to the article 75W. at first look 24X3 = 72W would make sense, but... there is lose to heat production, electronics, driver efficiency (best one that I am aware of is around 93%) and also not related to wattage - focal lenses efficiency. if you do the math you will realize that AI offers 3W bulbs driven probably around 2.7 or 2.6W

If you read some interesting reports coming from InterZoo 2010 event in Nurenberg Germany that was held this weekend - there are some LED lamps that come with better results simply based on materials and technology used.
that's all.

Of course there are losses, which apply to all LEDS regardless of the wattage. I think I read that AI under-powers the Crees for the benefit of less heat, increased effeciency and longevity which makes sense as they clearly don't need the additional PAR

The real deliverable is PAR - 75 watts through a single AI = 364 PAR at 24"... I've yet to see another commercial fixture with better performance.

As for InterZoo, lots of new things on the horizon - Everything from Plasma Arc lighting (which may eventually prove more efficient than LEDS if they can get the colors worked out) to self healing siphons. It's a safe bet that we'll see significant improvements in LED performance.

Jack07013 · 05/16/2010, 01:21 PM

You havent searched hard enough :-) but I think you will be surprised soon.

[QUOTE=CalmSeasQuest;17111296]
The real deliverable is PAR - 75 watts through a single AI = 364 PAR at 24"... I've yet to see another commercial fixture with better performance.
QUOTE]

Jack07013 · 05/16/2010, 01:23 PM

It underpowers 3W b/c cooling system may not be good enough to drive them at 3W ? Going with your logic, it would be better to get 5W cree, drive at 3W and go with excuse of longevity.

The truth is some manufacturers underdrive their lamps simply because they have not answer to heat issues.

[QUOTE=CalmSeasQuest;17111296]
The real deliverable is PAR - 75 watts through a single AI = 364 PAR at 24"... I've yet to see another commercial fixture with better performance.
QUOTE]

pfy333 · 05/16/2010, 02:12 PM

Is there a 5W LED bulb? Plus, by running higher wattage LED's it will increase the already premium asking price of the fixtures. I don't think heat is an issue, but under driving so they can last longer is probably more of a reliability/ quality issue. Puts AI on the map as one of the best LED fixtures with lower warranty claims. It's like drivng a car at max rpm/speed, slamming the brakes and hard accelrations will definately lower the life of the engine, brake, transmission and tires. Plus from the PAR readings, I say they are plenty bright. Just my .02

Jack07013 · 05/16/2010, 02:49 PM

If cooling is not the reason why would you underdrive the led bulb? Just read Sanjay's article and dig into it and compare other fixtures on advertised power of the fixture, bulbs and wattage used - there are some truly interesting stuff. You will be surprised.

If cars optimum driving speed is 40 to 50mph why would you drive at 20mph?

I do agree that AI is one of the better fixtures on the mkt - just not the best if you know what to look for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pfy333

Is there a 5W LED bulb? Plus, by running higher wattage LED's it will increase the already premium asking price of the fixtures. I don't think heat is an issue, but under driving so they can last longer is probably more of a reliability/ quality issue. Puts AI on the map as one of the best LED fixtures with lower warranty claims. It's like drivng a car at max rpm/speed, slamming the brakes and hard accelrations will definately lower the life of the engine, brake, transmission and tires. Plus from the PAR readings, I say they are plenty bright. Just my .02

BryanS · 05/16/2010, 03:05 PM

OK, Jack, what is the best in your opinion?

CalmSeasQuest · 05/16/2010, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack07013

You havent searched hard enough :-) but I think you will be surprised soon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CalmSeasQuest

The real deliverable is PAR - 75 watts through a single AI = 364 PAR at 24"... I've yet to see another commercial fixture with better performance.

Jack, If you have data to share - we're all interested. Give us a reference with hard, verifiable facts

Simply hinting at what you "might" know makes readers question the validity of your comments and potentially diminishes the value of whatever information you might have to share

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack07013

It underpowers 3W b/c cooling system may not be good enough to drive them at 3W ? Going with your logic, it would be better to get 5W cree, drive at 3W and go with excuse of longevity.

The truth is some manufacturers underdrive their lamps simply because they have not answer to heat issues.

The AIs have no heat issues - My fans often don't even turn on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pfy333

Is there a 5W LED bulb? Plus, by running higher wattage LED's it will increase the already premium asking price of the fixtures. I don't think heat is an issue, but under driving so they can last longer is probably more of a reliability/ quality issue. Puts AI on the map as one of the best LED fixtures with lower warranty claims. Plus from the PAR readings, I say they are plenty bright. Just my .02

+1 Well said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack07013

If cooling is not the reason why would you underdrive the led bulb? Just read Sanjay's article and dig into it and compare other fixtures on advertised power of the fixture, bulbs and wattage used - there are some truly interesting stuff. You will be surprised.

I do agree that AI is one of the better fixtures on the mkt - just not the best if you know what to look for.

I already detailed some of the reasons manufacturers (including AquaIllumination) might under-drive LEDS - It's simply a best practice when you don't need the additional PAR. BTW - We did read the article (remember - I posted it here

) But I for one wasn't surprised in the least. I own AIs AND a PAR meter...

I already knew they were PAR Monsters

Jack07013 · 05/16/2010, 03:29 PM

it is difficult question to answer and please allow me to answer why.

LED lighting fixtures dont "fit" all tanks. Depending on your tank and your needs one fixture can better over the other. Once you know your needs and your tank needs than you can do a simple process of elimination.

If I was to buy LED fixture I would probably ask the following quesitons:

a) is the unit running any cooling system to protect LED bulbs and their longevity? if yes, is it 24hrs non stop or controllable based on needs?

b) does the unit have correct whites vs blues bulb selection so you can enjoy the color of the light?

c) is the unit powered accordingly to led bulb specs? (what i mean by that is that some LED companies advertise 3W led bulb but in reality if you look at the specs or wattage consumption is much less)

d) are the lamps controllable to your needs?

e) have you seen or able to find example of tanks running under LED fixture you want to buy and people being happy with their units for more than "2" weeks? - what I mean by that have you seen tanks that use the light for 5-6 months are people are being happy with them and have nice coral growth of softies, LPS and SPS?

f) does the unit have led bulbs that you feel comfortable with?

g) driver efficiency?

h) focal lenses efficiency? and spotlight effect is this what you want and corals need?

i) is the electronic component of the lamp protected against corrosion?

j) are LED bulbs and LED PCB board protected against corrosion and salt water environment?

You may have a different questions and judge on different criteria and come with a different results. this my opinion based on my expirience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BryanS

OK, Jack, what is the best in your opinion?

CalmSeasQuest · 05/16/2010, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack07013

it is difficult question to answer and please allow me to answer why.

Jack,

With all due respect - If you're not going to answer a straight forward question or provide information of value that's relative to AquaIlluminations, please don't clutter this thread with useless drivel that's cut/pasted from numerous other threads.

BryanS · 05/16/2010, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calmseasquest

jack,

with all due respect - if you're not going to answer a straight forward question or provide information of value that's relative to aquailluminations, please don't clutter this thread with useless drivel that's cut/pasted from numerous other threads.

+++++11111111111

Jack07013 · 05/16/2010, 03:59 PM

Since I am not going to clutter the thread - let me say this: Dr. Sanjay will receive the fixture this week for tests straight from InterZoo 2010 in Germany. You will be able to compare numbers about PAR and coverage area from independent testing source with AI and make your own conclusion.

cvd55 · 05/16/2010, 04:02 PM

You could just tell us what fixture/company your talking about

CalmSeasQuest · 05/16/2010, 04:07 PM

That's great Jack - There will no doubt be many improvements in LED technology over time.

I hope to have the opportunity to meet Dr. Joshi this weekend as he's speaking at the Midwest Marine Conference. Perhaps he'll share more details with the attendees about your "secret fixture"

(Not that it's relevant to this thread.)

wesley6610 · 05/16/2010, 05:44 PM

I would venture to say that using terms like "best" and "worse" when it comes to LED lighting is a bit presumptuous just yet, as everyone's needs won't be the same. I like the package that AI/KR-92 has put together for its professional look, but it seems to be catered towards SPS/Clams for the most part, not a bad thing at all. The other fixtures seem to be geared towards the LPS/softies or FOWLR, perhaps even some refugium illumination. So to me, it seems the lines are being drawn again like they were for MH when it came to 400, 250, 150 and 70W bulbs...perhaps AI/KR-92 is like our 250/400 varieties and the other are 150/70/T5 replacements for now. The technology will only get better, so its kind of early to throw out terms like "best" in my opinion, everyone's tank might not need the Sun on full blast.

jonnybravo22 · 05/16/2010, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cvd55

You could just tell us what fixture/company your talking about

He could just tell us what fixture/company he's [working for?] talking about

To earlier points made, I couldn't care less if it drives at 2.7 watts instead of 3 --if the end result is that it provides more PAR at a lower energy bill (total wattage), that's what end users care about. These seem to be frivolous arguments. If you can point to a commercial unit that provides more PAR than the AI please share, otherwise you sound cynical and not constructive when you say "look harder".

bqwertpl · 05/16/2010, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack07013

Since I am not going to clutter the thread - let me say this: Dr. Sanjay will receive the fixture this week for tests straight from InterZoo 2010 in Germany. You will be able to compare numbers about PAR and coverage area from independent testing source with AI and make your own conclusion.

guys, if U google a little bit.. U can find what companies will be showing on InterZoo 2010 in Germany... and after small research I found pretty much, there is one major brand: Giesemann Lichttechnik und Aquaristik GmbH

also U can find what products they will be showing... there are few LEDs / T5s and as well as LEDs only..

wesley6610 · 05/17/2010, 08:21 AM

If you can provide a link that would be great, I can't seem to find the information on this company's products that you are talking about bqwertpl, thanks.

gcarroll · 05/17/2010, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack07013

Since I am not going to clutter the thread - let me say this: Dr. Sanjay will receive the fixture this week for tests straight from InterZoo 2010 in Germany. You will be able to compare numbers about PAR and coverage area from independent testing source with AI and make your own conclusion.

LED is in it's infant stages. If you wait long enough, you continue to find better. Aqua Illimunations for the moment seems to be the top performer of what is available in the US right now. Although I here Acan Lighting has some new stuff coming using the newer LEDs

CalmSeasQuest · 05/17/2010, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gcarroll

LED is in it's infant stages. If you wait long enough, you continue to find better. Aqua Illimunations for the moment seems to be the top performer of what is available in the US right now. Although I here Acan Lighting has some new stuff coming using the newer LEDs

Thanks Greg - I agree as to LEDs infancy. What's available in the next couple of years will certainly eclipse present day offerings in both performance and cost. Acan showed a few LEDS at Interzoo including 4' LED fixture mounted 6' above a tank

BryanS · 05/17/2010, 10:27 AM

Jack, I looked around and there are no spec's listed that I can see. Would love for you to show us what you think the best lights are...

05/16/2010, 11:20 AM	#102
CalmSeasQuest Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Brighton, MI Posts: 1,230	Sanjay just completed an in depth PAR study on a number of LEDS fixtures, including the AquaIlluminations - The article is available at Advanced Aquarist Online at http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/5/aafeature2 Needless to say, nothing else even came close to the performance of the AIs __________________ -Tom The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. - George Bernard Shaw Current Tank Info: 96X30" 270Gal, Kessil 360WEs, BK250 Double Cone, 400 gal ASW station with continuous water change

05/16/2010, 04:07 PM	#118
CalmSeasQuest Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Brighton, MI Posts: 1,230	That's great Jack - There will no doubt be many improvements in LED technology over time. I hope to have the opportunity to meet Dr. Joshi this weekend as he's speaking at the Midwest Marine Conference. Perhaps he'll share more details with the attendees about your "secret fixture" (Not that it's relevant to this thread.) __________________ -Tom The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. - George Bernard Shaw Current Tank Info: 96X30" 270Gal, Kessil 360WEs, BK250 Double Cone, 400 gal ASW station with continuous water change

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05/16/2010, 12:42 PM	#105
Jack07013 Registered Member. Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: New Jersey Posts: 142	AI: 24 3W LED bulbs - total Wattage consumption according to the article 75W. at first look 24X3 = 72W would make sense, but... there is lose to heat production, electronics, driver efficiency (best one that I am aware of is around 93%) and also not related to wattage - focal lenses efficiency. if you do the math you will realize that AI offers 3W bulbs driven probably around 2.7 or 2.6W If you read some interesting reports coming from InterZoo 2010 event in Nurenberg Germany that was held this weekend - there are some LED lamps that come with better results simply based on materials and technology used. that's all.

05/16/2010, 01:21 PM	#107
Jack07013 Registered Member. Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: New Jersey Posts: 142	You havent searched hard enough :-) but I think you will be surprised soon. [QUOTE=CalmSeasQuest;17111296] The real deliverable is PAR - 75 watts through a single AI = 364 PAR at 24"... I've yet to see another commercial fixture with better performance. QUOTE]

05/16/2010, 01:23 PM	#108
Jack07013 Registered Member. Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: New Jersey Posts: 142	It underpowers 3W b/c cooling system may not be good enough to drive them at 3W ? Going with your logic, it would be better to get 5W cree, drive at 3W and go with excuse of longevity. The truth is some manufacturers underdrive their lamps simply because they have not answer to heat issues. [QUOTE=CalmSeasQuest;17111296] The real deliverable is PAR - 75 watts through a single AI = 364 PAR at 24"... I've yet to see another commercial fixture with better performance. QUOTE]

05/16/2010, 02:12 PM	#109
pfy333 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 77	Is there a 5W LED bulb? Plus, by running higher wattage LED's it will increase the already premium asking price of the fixtures. I don't think heat is an issue, but under driving so they can last longer is probably more of a reliability/ quality issue. Puts AI on the map as one of the best LED fixtures with lower warranty claims. It's like drivng a car at max rpm/speed, slamming the brakes and hard accelrations will definately lower the life of the engine, brake, transmission and tires. Plus from the PAR readings, I say they are plenty bright. Just my .02

05/16/2010, 03:05 PM	#111
BryanS Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Clemente Posts: 382	OK, Jack, what is the best in your opinion?

05/16/2010, 03:59 PM	#116
Jack07013 Registered Member. Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: New Jersey Posts: 142	Since I am not going to clutter the thread - let me say this: Dr. Sanjay will receive the fixture this week for tests straight from InterZoo 2010 in Germany. You will be able to compare numbers about PAR and coverage area from independent testing source with AI and make your own conclusion.

05/16/2010, 04:02 PM	#117
cvd55 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Coral Springs,FL Posts: 133	You could just tell us what fixture/company your talking about

05/16/2010, 05:44 PM	#119
wesley6610 Water Lover Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Maryland Posts: 576	I would venture to say that using terms like "best" and "worse" when it comes to LED lighting is a bit presumptuous just yet, as everyone's needs won't be the same. I like the package that AI/KR-92 has put together for its professional look, but it seems to be catered towards SPS/Clams for the most part, not a bad thing at all. The other fixtures seem to be geared towards the LPS/softies or FOWLR, perhaps even some refugium illumination. So to me, it seems the lines are being drawn again like they were for MH when it came to 400, 250, 150 and 70W bulbs...perhaps AI/KR-92 is like our 250/400 varieties and the other are 150/70/T5 replacements for now. The technology will only get better, so its kind of early to throw out terms like "best" in my opinion, everyone's tank might not need the Sun on full blast.

05/17/2010, 08:21 AM	#122
wesley6610 Water Lover Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Maryland Posts: 576	If you can provide a link that would be great, I can't seem to find the information on this company's products that you are talking about bqwertpl, thanks.

05/17/2010, 10:27 AM	#125
BryanS Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Clemente Posts: 382	Jack, I looked around and there are no spec's listed that I can see. Would love for you to show us what you think the best lights are...