A pair of EcoWheel tanks in the making

[caevan]

take it you wheel has the screening that wraps all the way around? Mine doesn't - my algae grows directly on the PVC wheel itself.

Brett,

I noticed in the picture above you had no screen, my ecowheel has a screen wrapped around either side of the wheel leaving the centre ( about 1 third of the wheel width) open. I presume this is a design change in yours, I would be interested to know why.

Due to distance and cost of shipping, I only purchased the wheel assembly, the surge boxes and some plumbing parts, along with plans to build the eco wheel tank. Everything else was built or sourced locally. As there was no way to get a seeded screen for the wheel, I had to let the algae grow by itself. Regardless of the water level I was getting quite high rpm, so Chris Limcaco suggested covering the bare section with more screen material, this gave me a similar rotation to what you have described.

[Putawaywet]

I have no idea why the design change. Other than a little extra time scraping in and around the blades on the wheel I guess it's all same.

FWIW, Imagine even growing your own algae from scratch you're no worse for wear. It's not like Turf algaes come from some secret part of the world. The idea of getting them from Inland is just a time saving measure more than likely.

How much effort does it take for you to stop your wheel? I mean, can you hold it in place with a single finger?

Brett

[chask]

Brett wrote:

About the only think I have been doing is trying to service the wheel on a regular basis, remove as much corraline as possible to reduce excess weight and keep water levels as consistant as possible. That seems to work but it requires that I stay deligent.

I read somewhere else here on RC about corraline algae. Several posters said that keeping their Ca down to around 400-410 significantly reduced their corraline algae growth. They also commented how they could not understand those who kept their Ca levels in the upper 400s to 500+. I think that there was another factor they also mentioned that they claimed assisted in lower corraline growth but it doesn't come to mind what that was now. I can find it again if this is something you guys do not already know about.

Charles

[caevan]

FWIW, Imagine even growing your own algae from scratch you're no worse for wear. It's not like Turf algaes come from some secret part of the world. The idea of getting them from Inland is just a time saving measure more than likely.

In the past I have setup DIY algae scrubbers, and had to let them seed themselves. On an established tank this does not take long. On a new tank it can take quite a while.

How much effort does it take for you to stop your wheel? I mean, can you hold it in place with a single finger?

Not without a lot of effort.

[piercho]

Caevan,
with regards to increased efficiencies using a "ring" injector vice a single injection point:
I ran two tests using a 4', 1.5" lift with lots of 2" external plumbing and bends (like the ecowheel plumbing has). One test was with a 8-point injector made by AES. The second was with the homemade injector with the many tiny holes shown in the thread you linked. I did get a better flow rate with the homemade injector with many tiny holes. However, the plumbing was similar but not identical, so plumbing head may have played a significant role. I never tested a single point injector like the one showed in the ecowheel schematic for performance. I don't know if you would get a significant improvement, if any improvement, going with a multi-point injector in your arrangement.

Basic air lift design is that fewer, larger bubbles produce more lift if the lift pipe has vertical head. Do fewer, larger bubbles produce more flow against plumbing loss? That is, is plumbing head equivalent to vertical head with an air lift? Don't know.

The obvious advantage of many, tiny lift bubbles is more gas exchange. The water coming out of my lift pipe (many tiny bubbles) is pretty much foam. It does not form a standing head like a skimmer, and no "crust" of skimmed life forms. But every 45 seconds, or so, the RCSD exhaust fires into this area, and this may keep it clean.

What I can say is that I measured 20GPM flow at a 1.5 GPM air injection rate. That is the same flow as the ecowheel unit produces with much more air injection at a similar lift height. Why? I don't know. I did learn in my experiment that plumbing resitance plays a huge role in lift performance. The energy it takes to drop the water over the weirs, the resistance of input strainers, the loss from the tight 90 degree bends in the plumbing all add up.

My suggestion, for those of you silly enough to muck about with air lifts, is to set up the system (or a mock-up of the system) on the back patio and experiment. ABS plumbing, what I recommend because it comes in large diameter sizes and has readily available long sweep elbows, is cheap. "Quick fit" rubber fittings make joining together trial sections a breeze. Just try different plumbing arrangements and lift injectors to see if you can milk more performance out of the system.

I can safely state that doing any of the following will increase lift performance:
-Reducing plumbing runs.
-Increasing plumbing size.
-Replacing sharp bends with slow bends.
-Reducing vertical head, like the drop over a weir.
-Eliminating input strainers, or at least increasing their size.

Brett,
wow. At heart, you are an artist, with the meticulous nature of an engineer. Thanks for keeping the thread moving and taking time to respond in detail to the questions. Its still an interesting thread.

I finally gave in and installed a overflow with a beefy return pump on my system. I just had to get more flow through the vegetative filter. The action of my RCSD is to make the overflow run fast then suddenly stop flow, run fast..., etc. So I'm using that action to "surge" a little homemade alga scrubber. I'm calling it the motionless, surged, alga scrubber. So far I'm likeing it.

Sadly, the air lift/RCSD/scrubber experimental tank is likely to end next year as we plan to radically remodel our home or move. I'm feeling attached to some of these creatures I've kept over 3 years, so I hope I can keep some sort of tank going for the favorites. The good part is I feel I have enough time under my belt to take on a project the size of yours once our housing is resolved. Keep this thread moving, I'm sponging lots of ideas up!

[Putawaywet]

Hi Howard, always nice to hear from you.

Thanks for the kind words and for taking the time to drop in and clarify a few things.

If it wasn't for you and your ideas I probably would have wound up plumbing this thing with PVC and tight 90 degree bends.

Ref the ring injector: I have always had the possibility of the holes becoming clogged with calcification somewhere in the back of my mind as well as how I will deal with it if and when the time ever comes. I figure the easist will be to just drill through the double wall of the pipe and glue a hose barb into the injector. At that point I will be back to single point injection, but at least I will still have the ABS sweeps working in my favor.

Brett

[caevan]

What I can say is that I measured 20GPM flow at a 1.5 GPM air injection rate. That is the same flow as the ecowheel unit produces with much more air injection at a similar lift height. Why? I don't know. I did learn in my experiment that plumbing resitance plays a huge role in lift performance. The energy it takes to drop the water over the weirs, the resistance of input strainers, the loss from the tight 90 degree bends in the plumbing all add up.

From speaking with Chris Limcaco, the reason for this is, to maintain the sort of flow rate without reducing bubble size required a much greater air flow, I know a lot of effort was put into the design to maintain planktonic life within the system.

Could someone post a site for ABS fittings, trying to source these locally in (Australia) could be difficult.

[chask]

caevan,

I do not know what you are looking for but try McMaster. I did a search for ABS and it came up with several listings for fittings, sheets, tubes, etc.

http://www.mcmaster.com/

Glad to help if you have any trouble geting anything from them.

Charles

[Putawaywet]

Where ever you find them make sure your elbows are "sweeps" which are longer and have a more gentle radius. Get the longest radius you can find.

If you haven't already figured it out, the general reasoning behind the ABS stuff is that the sweeps are an off the shelf plumbing piece where as the same sweep in PVC is more of a specialized item at like triple the price.

Brett

[chask]

I got a call from Chris Owens with AE this morning. He was very nice and very helpful. One of the topics we touched on was the size of the tank and amount of flow it would require to handle various corals. Apparently the larger model can be configured to handle up to about 700 gallons (may have been 750 but I cannot remember for sure). This was surprising to me as my prior information indicated that 300 gallons was the upper limit. I believe I mentioned the 1200 gph rate I had heard before and I think he said that was a median flow. Anyway he did not think there would be a problem going with one unit (though he thought two would be much better in case I might want to add more corals and/or fish later) because there were things he could do to tweak filter for higher the flow.

This is more to the point of your recent posts and the main reason for this one. It is more expensive but using flexible tubing runs can provide a signinficant flow improvement. 15% comes to mind but we talked about a lot of things and a lot of numbers were mentioned. Unfortunatley I did not write any figures down. At the time I was more interested in my project and forgot about the flow stuff going on in this thread. If there is crawl or any other space underneath the tank and filter going through the floor to get more vertical difference in the flow path also provides some significant increase as well. I got the impression that there may be another method or two but I suspect from your posts you may already thinking of these things.

We also talked about some occasional auxilliary flow (to stir things up a little) via gentle methods similar to the air lift pump currently used. Though he seemed hesitant to do it (said he did not think it would be necessary) it sounded like he had some ideas.

Chris did mention that they were wokring on some new marketing things regarding the tank and associated items. I do not think they are any great secret but will not mention them because I am not sure how much he wants out yet. Glad to ask him permission though if anyone is interested. From the way he talked it will be out soon anyway.

Charles

[t12345]

How many different models of the ecowheel are there? I thought there was just the one model M12 the 20x20x34 unit and it was supposed to service approxiamately 500gal.
I was wondering what Chris is currently suggesting in regards to the bioballs at the bottom of the ecowheel unit. there was a thread about whether it contributed to detritus buildup and subsequent nitrate level in the water.
I've had a unit on order for 2 months now and my aquarium manufacturer is still waiting for the unit. If it does not arrive soon , I'm going to scrap that plan and go to a conventional setup; even though I like the concept.
Tim

[chask]

Tim wrote:
How many different models of the ecowheel are there? I thought there was just the one model M12 the 20x20x34 unit and it was supposed to service approxiamately 500gal.

Somehow I got the impression that there were 2 but then again I thought it was more like a maximum of a 300 gallon tank. What do I know? I have got to be one of the newest cherries here if not the newest. Anyway, I was deifnitely told 700 gallon (or maybe 750, but I think 700) this morning. 12 does sound like the right model number he mentioned.

I was wondering what Chris is currently suggesting in regards to the bioballs at the bottom of the ecowheel unit. there was a thread about whether it contributed to detritus buildup and subsequent nitrate level in the water.

I heard both bioballs and live rock mentioned. He said it was to reduce air bubbles in the tank. We did not go into it further.

I've had a unit on order for 2 months now and my aquarium manufacturer is still waiting for the unit. If it does not arrive soon, I'm going to scrap that plan and go to a conventional setup; even though I like the concept.

I like the concept a lot but this is not a comforting thought as I am currently thinking about buying one, no two. Did he promise a delivery? I will say Chris did mention some things they are doing a little differently.

Anybody else out there - I would love to here their experiences with the system. Please PM or e-mail me. I think I am going to start another thread about this as this is getting off Putwaywet's topic.

Aside:
As I look at this I probably should have just responded without all the formatting. But now that I have kind of figured it out . . well I guess the novelty will eventually pass. Probably not soon enough for most of you though.

Charles

[piercho]

Could someone post a site for ABS fittings

In the US, black ABS is the most common material sold for drain plumbing. At a typical hardware here, sizes from 1 1/2" up to 4" are available. It's intended for low-pressure applications. It has been fine for the purposes I've used it for. It will fit to PVC fittings if you thave to transition, but joining is tricky. Oatey sells a green PVC-ABS transition cement which has work for me on joints up to 6". You could also try a thin silicone like Marine Goop if you have to deal with transition joints. PVC is fine for use, but PVC sweep joints are hard to come by unless you special order, and the prices are high. Another option for joining is a rubber product with clamp fittings called "Qwik Fit". They are expensive, though, and I prefer hard (solvent welded) joints below the waterline. Kwik fits are great for running tests, though.

It is more expensive but using flexible tubing runs can provide a signinficant flow improvement

I absolutely love flexible PVC. At hardwares like Home Depot, its sold as "SPA flex", and is priced through the roof in limited diameters. Try a major plumbing supplier or a commercial aquatic store like Aquatic Eco Systems (AES). AES sells it in black and white in lots of diameters. With the smaller sizes (up to 1 1/4"), Chisty's Red Hot BLUE has worked great to join the flex to rigid PVC for me. I've never tried to join flex PVC to ABS, and would not recommend it. I would highly recommend the flex PVC for air lift plumbing - or any tank plumbing for that matter.

[Putawaywet]

I originally ordered some 2" black spa flex from A.E., and while it was not prohibitively expensive, I discovered that trying to get it inside my cabinets - specifically feeding it through the holes in the cabinet walls while still maintaining all the necessary bends was an extremely difficult task. About all I was able to manage was a 24" radius give or take.

Perhaps one could heat it and massage it into a tighter radius but 2" dia is pretty tuff stuff and. Laying prone inside a cabinet while wrestling non-cooperative hose proved to be an excercise in my patientence.

But if you can make it work I'd highly recommend it since it will not only reduce frictional losses, but save you some time and effort with your plumbing.

Re: The BioBall issue.... I'm not only seeing an increase in bubbles in the display since I removed the bioballs, but I also have a reduction of sponge growth on the grids in the lower portion of the filter. No doubt, the ring injector mod is probably contrbuting to to my bubble issue to some degree.

When I spoke to Morgan Lidster at Inland Aquatics he told me that he removed the bioballs from one of his 2 tanks and is also getting some bubbles returning to the tank.

As far as the filter sizing... I don't see why it can't be scaled to fit whatever tank you want. It should just be a matter of increasing the acrylic tank and wheel size proportional to the size of the aquarium.

And yes, if you increase the size of the head in the Airlift you should be able to increase the flow. At least I'm reasonably sure. Piercho will have to chime in on this - perhaps there is some breakeven point where additional head no longer matters but I can't help but wonder what kind of flow you would see if you ran your plumbing thru the floor to the basement and then tied back into a 12' airlift under the EcoWheel ???

Brett

[chask]

Putawaywet wrote:
As far as the filter sizing... I don't see why it can't be scaled to fit whatever tank you want. It should just be a matter of increasing the acrylic tank and wheel size proportional to the size of the aquarium.

Chris was not talking about increasing the size of the filter. We discussed space requirements as I need that information to complete the layout of the equipment room. He told me the unit is 20" x 20" and to allow for 2' x 2' for the air flow vent at the back and some other equipment or work space around the filter. I am not sure I understand. I too would think that surface area of the algae plates would have to increase in some proportion to increasing tank volume. Perhaps it is already way oversized.

matt & pam
Sent you a PM. Don't know if you have not been on or if you never check or just don't respond to those.

[piercho]

yes, if you increase the size of the head in the Airlift you should be able to increase the flow

Snailman passed these values on to me years ago. They are from an old AES catalog when they were trying to market their own ring injectors. You will see that the values are quite high, but remember that this is for in-tank, unrestricted (by plumbing) lifts:

Depth 1.0CFM 1.5CFM 2.0CFM
1" pipe
24" 8GPM 10GPM 13GPM
48" 21GPM 24GPM 28GPM

1.5" pipe
24" 16GPM 17GPM 18GPM
48" 36GPM 36GPM 42GPM

2" Pipe
24" 20GPM 24GPM 30GPM
48" 42GPM 48GPM 61GPM

In these cases, for a 2X increase in lift heigth, the increase in flow is over 2X. So it looks good. But consider your air pump. Even if the pump can handle the pressure, you will still get reduced air output at increased head. Lets say you get half the air output at twice the head. On paper, it looks like you'll get better flow rates. In reality? Don't know. Not easy to test in mock-up either, unless you have a 2nd-level deck.

You'll need the output curve for the air pump you intend to use when considering how tall to make the lift. My pump, a linear piston Medo AC602, stalls out at about 5 psig. But the "knee" in the performance curve is at about 2.5 psig. Past 3 psig, output drops off faster. So, unless I was going to use a different pump, I'd keep the pressure that pump sees under 3 psig.

[matt & pam]

chask,
you've got PM.
Matt

[matt & pam]

FWIW, Chris now is offereing a flex PVC plumbing kit with the eco-wheel.

Matt

[wbburris]

I started up a custom, used Eco-Wheel about 7 months ago. It doesn't have anything below the box where the wheel is located; only 3/4, and 1" hose barbs. I have a RIO in the sump, and pump approx. 2-3gpm thru the unit back into the sump. The algae is red which the Tang likes (does not like green). I have a 400g tank with LR, few fish, and many varieties of corals. I am not using a skimmer. I think that between the LR, oolithic sand bed, and the Eco-Wheel the water stays clear, and there has never been an algae problem. I would like to eliminate the sump, but I would be pumping air into the tank. My objective is to use the least amount of equipment to have a beautiful, and healthy tank, and livestock.

[t12345]

In regards to the restrictions to water flow, are the factors limited to one side or the other, ie. influent vs effluent? If the influent side had the minimum number of turns in the piping then flow and surge should be mimimally affected? On the effluent side if you had a number of turns in the piping and it slowed the flow down, would you just get a decrease in the number of revolutions in the wheel and number of surges/minute? I want to maintain the peak velocity for the surge on the influent side. My installation is somewhat convoluted, so I'm concerned about dropping peak flow for the surge.
any comments please?
thanks tim

[wbburris]

I just circulate a small flow from the sump to the EW, and back to the sump. I don't have a surge, and couldn't have one with the small piping. I cut two more triangular openings in the side of the wheel to match the other two so there wouldn't be a hesitation in the wheel rotation. The wheel stopped for a while in one spot on each revolution. This caused the algae to bleech out in that area. The more uniform rotation of the wheel now prevents that problem. The EW makes a nice item to look at, but I believe a refugium would be less comlicated, and limiting. I wouldn't know if is beneficial without disconnecting it. I think the sand, LR, and sump is all that is necessary.

[chask]

wbburris wrote:
I just circulate a small flow from the sump to the EW, and back to the sump. I don't have a surge, and couldn't have one with the small piping. I cut two more triangular openings in the side of the wheel to match the other two so there wouldn't be a hesitation in the wheel rotation. The wheel stopped for a while in one spot on each revolution. This caused the algae to bleech out in that area. The more uniform rotation of the wheel now prevents that problem.

Is the lack of a surge due to the EW no longer hesitating?

wbburris wrote:
The EW makes a nice item to look at, but I believe a refugium would be less comlicated, and limiting. I wouldn't know if is beneficial without disconnecting it. I think the sand, LR, and sump is all that is necessary.

How large a sump or refugium do you have and what is the recommended or 'rule of thumb' range on a 400 gallon tank? From what I have read and been told the EW (with a 2'x2' footprint and the height of the tank) will handle a system almost twice the size of yours. When I look at the plumbing Putawaywet has, the lack of the other items to maintain (skimmer, etc.), and the size of the EW relative to a large sump, I do not see how the EW is more complicated. Would you please explain?

wbburris wrote:
My objective is to use the least amount of equipment to have a beautiful, and healthy tank, and livestock.

Wouldn't we all? I just would like to do this with a more natural approach.

Thanks
Charles

[wbburris]

The EW has to be mounted with its axle above the water level in the tank. If the tank, and EW are made as an operating unit then it is simple. The air pump will product about 20 gpm water flow into the EW. The surging action of the EW may generate 2x that into the tank.
Since my EW is non-standard, a lot of problems arise when trying to make it operate as a standard unit. Since it doesn't have the lower section, it would require a sump on the discharge to allow air to escape. If the EW is standard, and it can be mounted above the tank then it is probably the simplest system out there.

[chask]

wbburris,

Thanks. I had sort of come to that conclusion but was confused by your post. I appreciate your clarification.

Thanks
Charles

[chask]

Putawaywet
One of the newer probs that has developed seems to be directly related to placing the tanks on the carpet. The weight of the reef tank caused that section to settle just a tad more than the pier piling tank or the middle section with the EcoWheel.

Haven't heard much about this since your post several weeks ago. For that matter, nothing in about 2 weeks. Have you made any progress on the siphon/washer setup? Or is the holiday season eating up your free time?

Hope all is well

Thanks
Charles