Reef Central Online Community

Home Forum Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences View New Posts View Today's Posts

Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for marine aquarists Support our sponsors and mention Reef Central

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > General Interest Forums > The Reef Chemistry Forum
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

User Tag List

Reply
Thread Tools
Old 07/11/2018, 10:31 AM   #1
rsucre
Registered Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 175
ATI Aquaristic Lab Results

Hi. I sent water samples from my 20 gallon mixed reef tank to ATI Aquaristik. Just got the results and besides low Iodine and low Manganese, it showed high levels of some metals (Nickel, Zinc and Tin).

I'm worried about those high levels of Nickel (4.58 ug/l), Zinc (21.07 ug/l) and Tin (44.75 ug/l).

ATI recommends:
1. Trace metals are critically elevated, find source (corroding metals/magnets, RO water, salt).
2. Change 3 x 20 % of water (weekly cycle)

Any recommendations? Are these levels really that critical?

Equipment that I think may be the source:
- 2 Jebao Wavemakers (magnet)
- Tunze glass cleaning magnet (looks very well sealed with epoxy and plastic)
- Jebao/Jecod DC Pump
- Neptune Apex PMUP Pump
- Neptune Apex probes?
- Rocks were collected by me from a local caribbean island. Maybe they are of volcanic source and have metals in them?

Your feedback is appreciated.


rsucre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/11/2018, 01:14 PM   #2
rsucre
Registered Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 175
I just saw that the hinges of the sump cabinet are very rusted (metal rust flakes falling apart). The hinges are not positioned in a way that the flakes would fall into the sump, but I can see perhaps small metal dust particles can get in there. Even my hands and tools can have touched the rust and contaminated the tank.

Do you think that could be the source? I'm going to replace them right now.


rsucre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/11/2018, 03:37 PM   #3
2una
Registered Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: South Africa
Posts: 190
Most people i see with tin find something rusting
the jebao dc pump - if it is an earlier one that isn't the newer twist lock housing (DCS & prior i think it is) the bolts there be worth a check....same with the inside of the pmup seen pics of them rusting also.


2una is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/11/2018, 05:05 PM   #4
rsucre
Registered Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2una View Post
Most people i see with tin find something rusting
the jebao dc pump - if it is an earlier one that isn't the newer twist lock housing (DCS & prior i think it is) the bolts there be worth a check....same with the inside of the pmup seen pics of them rusting also.
Hi 2una,

I had the DCS 3000 and replaced it with the DCP 3000 a couple of months ago. I don't know since when I have the high tin, since this is the first time I do an ICP test.

I replaced the DCS 3000 just because I wanted to have an extra pump at hand as backup and decided to put the newer model as main. I inspected the DCS 3000 and it looked all fine (impeller, etc.). Definitely no rust in there, at least not visible.

You say that the DCP (newer) should not have the issue, but the DCS could have it? The DCS also seems to have the twist lock mechanism. I did not see bolts.

I appreciate your help.


rsucre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/11/2018, 05:27 PM   #5
mcgyvr
Registered Member
 
mcgyvr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 16,939
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2una View Post
Most people i see with tin find something rusting
the jebao dc pump - if it is an earlier one that isn't the newer twist lock housing (DCS & prior i think it is) the bolts there be worth a check....same with the inside of the pmup seen pics of them rusting also.
Tin doesn't rust.. and typically wouldn't be used in any of the materials nor underplatings in the fabrication of any parts either..
Rust is iron oxide and the fasteners used in this hobby would be stainless steel.

Tin IS used in the production of glass though (floating on a bath of tin) and there is a tin side and non-tin side of regular float glass.. Many manufacturers will not check and may have the tin side inside the tank which could cause elevated levels I suppose..


__________________
Being blunt and having fun
mcgyvr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/11/2018, 06:23 PM   #6
2una
Registered Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: South Africa
Posts: 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcgyvr View Post
Tin doesn't rust.. and typically wouldn't be used in any of the materials nor underplatings in the fabrication of any parts either..
Rust is iron oxide and the fasteners used in this hobby would be stainless steel.

Tin IS used in the production of glass though (floating on a bath of tin) and there is a tin side and non-tin side of regular float glass.. Many manufacturers will not check and may have the tin side inside the tank which could cause elevated levels I suppose..
Yep plastic pipework or glass also, i guess those 2 are an unknown for higher levels.Maybe why sometimes new tanks have trouble huh,
With my tin/rust comment i could link you some pic's but the links won't work.
Vortech cracked wet side casings with rust - high tin
I guess 304 stainless in those earlier bolt together impeller housings on the jebao's rusting - high tin
Rusted screws under heater rubbers - tin
Rusted wing nuts on floats - tin

Maybe it's not the rust that is the tin but what ever is leeching/corroding out with it & the rust is just a sign


2una is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/11/2018, 11:17 PM   #7
bertoni
RC Mod
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mountain View, CA, USA
Posts: 87,271
It's reasonably likely that the test results are wrong. There are technical limitations on accuracy given the price aquarists are willing to pay. There's some reading available, if you are interested. You could check the metallic components in the tank for obvious signs of corrosion. That should be fairly easy. If there are any animals showing signs of trouble, some water changes and a PolyFilter can help.


__________________
Jonathan Bertoni
bertoni is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07/12/2018, 02:52 AM   #8
2una
Registered Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: South Africa
Posts: 190
fwiw i've done 13 Ati icp tank tests & a couple of salt brand tests, all but 1 gave me undetectable(below lod) Tin results except 1 test that gave what i guess was a ghost reading of 1ug/l.

Edit: Jonathan if your interested to take a look i'm more than happy to share my log in with you - elements don't jump all over the place non sensibly, I have read what your talking about so know where your coming from.



Last edited by 2una; 07/12/2018 at 03:41 AM.
2una is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/12/2018, 04:40 AM   #9
mcgyvr
Registered Member
 
mcgyvr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 16,939
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2una View Post
Yep plastic pipework or glass also, i guess those 2 are an unknown for higher levels.Maybe why sometimes new tanks have trouble huh,
With my tin/rust comment i could link you some pic's but the links won't work.
Vortech cracked wet side casings with rust - high tin
I guess 304 stainless in those earlier bolt together impeller housings on the jebao's rusting - high tin
Rusted screws under heater rubbers - tin
Rusted wing nuts on floats - tin

Maybe it's not the rust that is the tin but what ever is leeching/corroding out with it & the rust is just a sign
Tin is not an alloying element or anything in any of the materials used in this hobby... There is no tin in them at all..
If you are finding elevated tin levels and rusted items thats just a coincidence and one is not related to the other..


__________________
Being blunt and having fun
mcgyvr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/12/2018, 08:20 PM   #10
bertoni
RC Mod
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mountain View, CA, USA
Posts: 87,271
Tin might come from a soldered component, but I can't think of many other sources I'd expect in a tank. I'd expect some fireworks from an exposed soldered joint, for that matter.


__________________
Jonathan Bertoni
bertoni is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07/12/2018, 08:33 PM   #11
rsucre
Registered Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 175
Thanks to all for the valuable information and feedback. I think that then I'm not going to worry too much about it. Will increase the size of my next 3-4 water changes and may send a new water sample to an ICP lab in a few months to see what it shows. May switch to Triton just to compare.


rsucre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/13/2018, 07:58 AM   #12
lunar
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Posts: 378
It's possible that jebao pump releases tin. A quotation from another forum: "It's relatively low maintainence, I only have to change out the dosing solutions once a month-ish and add a few drops of nutrients whenever I feed the fish. I rarely do water changes unless something seems off, which at one point, it did, as a Jebao pump was rusting in my sump leeching tin into the water. It's since been replaced and the tin has dropped about 60%, slowly getting back to zero."
Read also https://www.reef2rainforest.com/2016...f-being-cheap/

Krzysztof


lunar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/13/2018, 11:36 AM   #13
bertoni
RC Mod
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mountain View, CA, USA
Posts: 87,271
That story might be true. It's very hard to say. The cost of determining whether there's actually tin in the water might be high. Of course, a pump (or anything with soldered components) could leach tin. I'd expect the odds of that happening without some electrical problems would be low, though.


__________________
Jonathan Bertoni
bertoni is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07/17/2018, 03:35 PM   #14
marinelife
Registered Member
 
marinelife's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Union, Ohio, USA
Posts: 6,566
I just received my test results today and also had elevated tin, could it be the salt (IO) or phosphate remover?


__________________
I'm a SaltGeek are You?

All LED since 2010.

Current Tank Info: 375 Gallon Reef with siporax, all LED lighting, and Red Dragon 3 and Abyzz A200 on 2 closed loops.
marinelife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/17/2018, 05:31 PM   #15
rsucre
Registered Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 175
I also use IO salt. What Tin value you got? I got 44.75 g/l



Last edited by rsucre; 07/17/2018 at 05:46 PM.
rsucre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/17/2018, 10:46 PM   #16
bertoni
RC Mod
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mountain View, CA, USA
Posts: 87,271
If there is tin, I'd suspect the salt. GFO should be (at least in theory) harder to contaminate.


__________________
Jonathan Bertoni
bertoni is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07/18/2018, 06:09 PM   #17
marinelife
Registered Member
 
marinelife's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Union, Ohio, USA
Posts: 6,566
my tin is 132.8 g/l
I do not use GFO


__________________
I'm a SaltGeek are You?

All LED since 2010.

Current Tank Info: 375 Gallon Reef with siporax, all LED lighting, and Red Dragon 3 and Abyzz A200 on 2 closed loops.
marinelife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/18/2018, 07:11 PM   #18
rsucre
Registered Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by marinelife View Post
my tin is 132.8 g/l
I do not use GFO
Mine is 44.75 μg/l. I ordered some Seachem Cuprasorb to see if I can get that Tin out of my system. According to Seachem Support, even thought it is sold mostly as a Copper absorbent, it also absorbs other heavy metals, including Tin:

"Cuprisorb will remove a wide assortment of heavy metals from water, tin included. Iron technically also falls into this category though, and so there is the potential for CupriSorb to remove it as well."

My Iron is on the low side, so I'm a little worried that Cuprasorb will also take out Iron and other stuff. Should I then dose Iron? It is like a never ending game...

Marinelife, are you experiencing any issues currently with your tank?



Last edited by rsucre; 07/18/2018 at 07:17 PM. Reason: Include extract from Seachem Support.
rsucre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/18/2018, 07:40 PM   #19
marinelife
Registered Member
 
marinelife's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Union, Ohio, USA
Posts: 6,566
interesting. Thanks for the information. I may have to try some and see what it does.


__________________
I'm a SaltGeek are You?

All LED since 2010.

Current Tank Info: 375 Gallon Reef with siporax, all LED lighting, and Red Dragon 3 and Abyzz A200 on 2 closed loops.
marinelife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/18/2018, 08:03 PM   #20
bertoni
RC Mod
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mountain View, CA, USA
Posts: 87,271
I might dose some iron after removing the CupraSorb, but dosing while the CupraSorb is in use might be counterproductive. The supplement might just help saturate the media.


__________________
Jonathan Bertoni
bertoni is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07/18/2018, 08:20 PM   #21
rsucre
Registered Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by bertoni View Post
I might dose some iron after removing the CupraSorb, but dosing while the CupraSorb is in use might be counterproductive. The supplement might just help saturate the media.
I agree that any Iron supplementation must be done after removing the Cuprasorb. I understand that Iron overdosing is not a huge concern. Is that right? I dont want to have to test for Iron. Jon, what do you recommend me to do? The tank is approx 20 - 22 gallon water volume. I dont have any macro algae. Mostly softies, LPS and some montipora. Iron is at 0.28 g/l and the ATI target is 0.5 g/l. Is it safe to assume that after the cuprisorb, Iron will be undetectable and dose to get it to the target?

Plan to use the DIY Iron recipe by Randy using Iron Gluconate tablet.


rsucre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/18/2018, 08:21 PM   #22
marinelife
Registered Member
 
marinelife's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Union, Ohio, USA
Posts: 6,566
I wish there was a test for Tin for the hobbyist.


__________________
I'm a SaltGeek are You?

All LED since 2010.

Current Tank Info: 375 Gallon Reef with siporax, all LED lighting, and Red Dragon 3 and Abyzz A200 on 2 closed loops.
marinelife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/18/2018, 08:41 PM   #23
bertoni
RC Mod
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mountain View, CA, USA
Posts: 87,271
Dosing a bit of iron after removing the CupraSorb should be fine. Iron is safe to dose without measuring because it's fairly non-toxic (within reason) and actually is consumed or precipitates rapidly.


__________________
Jonathan Bertoni
bertoni is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
heavy metals, metals, water parameters

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:27 AM.


TapaTalk Enabled

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2018 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright 1999-2014
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.