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Unread 12/10/2021, 01:56 PM   #2101
Michael Hoaster
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Wow that's fast. Did you have some sort of procedure, like dropping a certain amount on the quarter hours until you were done at one hour?


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Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Sandbar Lagoon, START DATE November 28, 2018
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Unread 12/10/2021, 01:57 PM   #2102
Vinny Kreyling
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Nope - Saltwater out Freshwater in @ a close temp.
Had a customer with a Powder Blue in a 150 that got Ich a few times a year.


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Unread 12/11/2021, 10:55 PM   #2103
Michael Hoaster
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After looking at the new fish I'd say the tang is more like 3 inches and the fox face 5. Still looking good and eating too. The fox face is eating Caulerpa too!

Can't wait to get these guys in the display!

QT3


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Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Sandbar Lagoon, START DATE November 28, 2018
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Unread 12/12/2021, 10:33 PM   #2104
Michael Hoaster
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Things to do

Before I add the new fish I should probably do a thing or two in the display. I want to prune back the seagrass. That will give the fish more room to roam. It's so thick now they can hardly move through it. A water change would be good too. I haven't done one in months. I did buy a new syphon thingy, so no excuses. What else? Hmm. Clean the glass! I'll want a clear view of everything, especially when I introduce them to the display.

I've been leaving the door open to their QTs so they get used to seeing us. They're still a bit shy, but they're getting bolder. The fox face can really camouflage itself well. I can look right at it and not see it!

QT4


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As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
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Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Sandbar Lagoon, START DATE November 28, 2018
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Unread 12/13/2021, 10:30 AM   #2105
Vinny Kreyling
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Michael,
I made a siphon that stops @ my selected water change parameter.
Left over from my maintenance days, it allows the worker to do another task without worry of water on the floor. If it's something you might be interested in --
Fabricate a hook from 1" pvc to hang over the rim of the tank.
The outside length should be longer than the inside with a hose barb on the end.
The inside should have a strainer set so the siphon breaks @ the desired water level for 15-20-25 gallons, whatever you decide. It's easier if you mark the tank so you know how deep to make it. Don't glue the last few under water fittings so you can raise or lower them for the final height. Just suck on the hose & let her rip into a sink, garbage can or even a toilet. THE most important thing is to secure the end of the hose so it stays put.


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Unread 12/13/2021, 11:08 AM   #2106
Michael Hoaster
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Thanks for the tip Vinny! Pretty slick idea. Might come in handy!

I'm going to need to add more caulerpa to the fox face's tank, since he has nearly eaten all of the first batch.

QT5


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Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Sandbar Lagoon, START DATE November 28, 2018
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Unread 12/13/2021, 04:15 PM   #2107
Vinny Kreyling
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I can post or send a picture if needed, just let me know.


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Unread 12/13/2021, 06:23 PM   #2108
Michael Hoaster
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Sure, a pic would add clarity. Post it!

I added a second rock to each QT to give them a little more cover. I think they like it, and seem bolder already. I also added more cualerpa to the fox face's tank. Fresh greens!


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As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
our desire to conquer and control everything, and walk hand in hand with Mother Nature. -Walter Adey

Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Sandbar Lagoon, START DATE November 28, 2018
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Unread 12/16/2021, 11:02 AM   #2109
Vinny Kreyling
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Michael,
I forgot this is RC, never learned to post a pic here.
The other site is a snap.
I can send to an email if you like, just PM me.
Vinny


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Unread 12/17/2021, 04:14 PM   #2110
Michael Hoaster
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Vinny sent me the image of his water change thingy, and here it is!


Correct me if I'm wrong, Vinny, but I think the 'U' section hangs over the top of the tank, and the length of the pipe with the intake strainer determines the total number of gallons removed, until the syphon is broken. He said the spring clamp was also important, I'm guessing to secure the device at the preferred height to get the desired amount of water out, right?

Pretty smart, huh? Thanks for sharing, Vinny!

QT9 - New fish still looking good!


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As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
our desire to conquer and control everything, and walk hand in hand with Mother Nature. -Walter Adey

Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Sandbar Lagoon, START DATE November 28, 2018
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Unread 12/17/2021, 04:21 PM   #2111
Vinny Kreyling
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1/2 right Michael.
The unit hangs over the rim with the strainer in the water. A hose attaches to the hose barb. Length determined by where it has to go for a drain. Everything is glued except
the fitting the strainer attaches to. It can move up or down slightly to tune the siphon break. Not shown is a red pen line for my particular position.
The clamp is used to secure the end of the hose from falling out of a sink or toilet & preventing a flood.
This is a 1" unit, as my old boss said " nothing moves water like a 1" hose". You can however make it from smaller piping.


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Unread 12/17/2021, 05:17 PM   #2112
Michael Hoaster
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Right on, thanks. Handiddlyinski!


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As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
our desire to conquer and control everything, and walk hand in hand with Mother Nature. -Walter Adey

Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Sandbar Lagoon, START DATE November 28, 2018
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Unread 12/22/2021, 07:56 AM   #2113
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@Michael Hoaster

This is a great thread! I'm going through it now for all the information you provide. I am planning to do a tank much like yours but with seahorses. You are one of the few active people I have found with first hand experience growing seagrass. Hopefully you don't mind a few questions.

Right now I am trying to figure out how much light I need and how much sand, plus what my clean up crew is going to look like.

I read you are using a 400w metal halide, any idea how much par that is at substrate? I read manatee grass needs somewhere around 200-300 par but it wasn't clear at what depth that was supposed to be, I'm assuming at substrate but figuring that out in advance would be great.

I've read manatee grass needs 6" of substrate, has that been your experience as well?

For clean up crew I am limited by the seahorses. Blue legged hermit crabs and emerald crabs are potentials though. I read you found a hermit crab or 2 in your grass and moved them. Did you ever live with them in the tank? I read your emerald crab ate your macros, but it wasn't clear if it ate any of the grass?

Right now I'm planning for a mix of manatee grass and shoal grass in the tank. I will be treating the tank much like a freshwater tank for dosing fertilizer using the pps-pro method and injecting co2 via a reactor. I have a lot of experience with freshwater tanks but zero with saltwater, so a lot of basics are an adventure for me ;P Since I won't be doing any corals I was planning to use tap water. Do you think that will be an issue for the grasses?

Thank you for any information!


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Unread 12/22/2021, 03:27 PM   #2114
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Wow Michael, in my hectic months of working I see that I sure have missed a lot! I am sorry that you were sick but happy to hear that you are on the mend.

So two new fish...that is exciting! I cannot wait to see them. I also like foxfaces but have never had one either. I think I remember that you had an Atlantic blue tang in V1, is that correct?

Tell the newcomers to please, please spare the sargassum, LOL!


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Unread 12/22/2021, 11:34 PM   #2115
Michael Hoaster
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Hey Minorhero and welcome! Glad you like the thread!

I like your idea of sea grasses and seahorses. I have to say though I think it will be a challenge. You said you are new to salt water. It's good to start with less difficult species to learn the skills and have some successes, before trying more difficult creatures.

Let's get into your questions. I never tested PAR, but considering the depths grasses inhabit, you'll need lighting on the brighter side - like lighting that would be considered bright reef lighting. If I were to test PAR, I'd test it at half depth to get an average for the length of the blades. My Manatee Grass has grown quite tall to reach brighter light. I'd agree a six inch substrate is good. You might be able to go a touch shallower if needed. I'm anti-hermit but that's just me. The emerald crab I tried ignored bubble algae, ate desirable macro algae and ignored the grasses.

I found fresh water planting methods worked great with grasses and macros. My concern would be combining fertilizers with seahorses. Dechlorinated tap water may be fine for the plants but probably not with seahorses. If you are serious about salt water, get a good RO/DI setup.

Good luck with your project!


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As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
our desire to conquer and control everything, and walk hand in hand with Mother Nature. -Walter Adey

Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Sandbar Lagoon, START DATE November 28, 2018
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Unread 12/22/2021, 11:42 PM   #2116
Michael Hoaster
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Hey Dawn, welcome back! I'm very excited about the two new fish! Yes, I had an Atlantic Blue tang before. This new one is a Pacific version. Can't wait to get them in the display!

QT14


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As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
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Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Sandbar Lagoon, START DATE November 28, 2018
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Unread 12/23/2021, 06:15 AM   #2117
Minorhero
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster View Post
Hey Minorhero and welcome! Glad you like the thread!

I like your idea of sea grasses and seahorses. I have to say though I think it will be a challenge. You said you are new to salt water. It's good to start with less difficult species to learn the skills and have some successes, before trying more difficult creatures.

Let's get into your questions. I never tested PAR, but considering the depths grasses inhabit, you'll need lighting on the brighter side - like lighting that would be considered bright reef lighting. If I were to test PAR, I'd test it at half depth to get an average for the length of the blades. My Manatee Grass has grown quite tall to reach brighter light. I'd agree a six inch substrate is good. You might be able to go a touch shallower if needed. I'm anti-hermit but that's just me. The emerald crab I tried ignored bubble algae, ate desirable macro algae and ignored the grasses.

I found fresh water planting methods worked great with grasses and macros. My concern would be combining fertilizers with seahorses. Dechlorinated tap water may be fine for the plants but probably not with seahorses. If you are serious about salt water, get a good RO/DI setup.

Good luck with your project!
Thank your for the response! I am super excited for this project but information on the plants is very scarce. So getting some of these answers is absolutely priceless.

I get mixed responses when I tell people my first saltwater tank will be seahorses. They have a reputation for being very difficult (fairly earned) from historical keeping practices and especially the dwarf species. Modern keeping practices has made them a bit easier to keep. For one thing its super easy to get erectus as captive bred that are already eating frozen mysis. Additionally the old practice was to keep them in low flow but the modern thinking is to keep them in moderately high flow which helps with the rest of the tank as well. So the people in the seahorse groups tend to be very welcoming of first time saltwater folks while everyone else is like 'seahorses.... maybe reconsider?; ;P

I am not too worried about fertilizer with the seahorses either. If they are actually sensitive to it they will be the first animal I've heard of that is. Even the most sensitive freshwater species can be kept with liquid fertilizer and I personally keep aquatic newts in a freshwater planted tank with ferts administered once a week and the newts are thriving. Honestly I see a much bigger reaction to dechlorinator then to fertilizer with various species. This is not too surprising since the liquid fertilizer is just replicating what is in dirt and the amounts going in are tiny. But I will also be watching closely when the seahorses get added in and will take action if needed. It will be months after the tank is up and running before I add the seahorses. Really want to get the rhythm down of saltwater first when the stakes are lower.

The RO question is a bigger issue. Near as I can tell about 20% of seahorse owners are using tap water. Many of the ro users are folks who previously tried them with tap water and made the switch... le sigh, I just don't want to the hassle ;P But I might make the leap.


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Unread 12/23/2021, 08:24 AM   #2118
Michael Hoaster
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Sounds like you're doing your homework! Let me know if I can answer anymore questions.


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As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
our desire to conquer and control everything, and walk hand in hand with Mother Nature. -Walter Adey

Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Sandbar Lagoon, START DATE November 28, 2018
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Unread 12/23/2021, 06:51 PM   #2119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minorhero View Post
@Michael Hoaster

This is a great thread! I'm going through it now for all the information you provide. I am planning to do a tank much like yours but with seahorses. You are one of the few active people I have found with first hand experience growing seagrass. Hopefully you don't mind a few questions.

Right now I am trying to figure out how much light I need and how much sand, plus what my clean up crew is going to look like.

I read you are using a 400w metal halide, any idea how much par that is at substrate? I read manatee grass needs somewhere around 200-300 par but it wasn't clear at what depth that was supposed to be, I'm assuming at substrate but figuring that out in advance would be great.

I've read manatee grass needs 6" of substrate, has that been your experience as well?

For clean up crew I am limited by the seahorses. Blue legged hermit crabs and emerald crabs are potentials though. I read you found a hermit crab or 2 in your grass and moved them. Did you ever live with them in the tank? I read your emerald crab ate your macros, but it wasn't clear if it ate any of the grass?

Right now I'm planning for a mix of manatee grass and shoal grass in the tank. I will be treating the tank much like a freshwater tank for dosing fertilizer using the pps-pro method and injecting co2 via a reactor. I have a lot of experience with freshwater tanks but zero with saltwater, so a lot of basics are an adventure for me ;P Since I won't be doing any corals I was planning to use tap water. Do you think that will be an issue for the grasses?

Thank you for any information!
Hi and welcome! I thought that I would share that I kept erectus seahorses for about 5 years. They are the most charming fish pets ever but definitely not for the casual aquarist.

I had very good success when I followed the advise of folks like rayjay and Pete Giwjonja at Ocean Rider. However when I tried to push the boundaries of what is recommended by these knowledgeable folks, I ran into trouble. Believe when I say an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure when it comes to seahorses. Treating sick ponies is no fun.

I wish you the best of luck with this project.


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Unread 12/23/2021, 06:53 PM   #2120
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Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster View Post
Hey Dawn, welcome back! I'm very excited about the two new fish! Yes, I had an Atlantic Blue tang before. This new one is a Pacific version. Can't wait to get them in the display!

QT14
So how many more days in quarantine?


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Unread 12/23/2021, 09:13 PM   #2121
Minorhero
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Sounds like you're doing your homework! Let me know if I can answer anymore questions.
Thank you! It's all great till I actually get to try it

Why do you not like hermit crabs?

I was reading in your posts that you thought your grass was growing slower in winter. Is that still the case?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vlangel View Post
Hi and welcome! I thought that I would share that I kept erectus seahorses for about 5 years. They are the most charming fish pets ever but definitely not for the casual aquarist.

I had very good success when I followed the advise of folks like rayjay and Pete Giwjonja at Ocean Rider. However when I tried to push the boundaries of what is recommended by these knowledgeable folks, I ran into trouble. Believe when I say an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure when it comes to seahorses. Treating sick ponies is no fun.

I wish you the best of luck with this project.
Thank you! I am looking at all the information I can find. I feel like grass and seahorses should be a really good fit in aquariums. I don't know much about saltwater but I feel like I have a pretty good understanding of growing plants submerged. I am going to take it slow and get a feel for the saltwater side of things for a few months before anything with a vertebrate gets added.

I definitely would not consider myself a casual aquarist. I have three CO2 injected freshwater tanks, one of which has newts. I also keep some dart frogs. Both the newts and the dart frogs eat cultured live foods I maintain. With any species there is a learning/research phase. That's just how it goes.


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Unread 12/23/2021, 11:22 PM   #2122
Michael Hoaster
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I'm glad you asked, Dawn, on time left in quarantine. At two weeks in hypo salinity I've seen no signs of ailments in either new fish, so I'm thinking I could introduce them in the next few days!

I'm so excited to see how they affect the fish community, and the ecosystem. The Blue Tang will bring speed, the Foxface will transform the aquascape, and step in as my replacement. You know your setup is low tech when you can replace yourself with a fish. Ha!

QT15


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As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
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Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Sandbar Lagoon, START DATE November 28, 2018
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Unread 12/23/2021, 11:47 PM   #2123
Michael Hoaster
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I think Hermit crabs are fascinating creatures. However, they are inferior to snails in the practical world of aquarium clean up crews. Plus they kill snails for their shells, so you have to choose one or the other. Sure, you can toss a bunch of hermits in a tank full of algae and no other food and they'll eat it, but once they get a taste for fish food their utility plummets.

I have an army of Dove Snails, which max out at 1/2 inch. They reproduce to match their numbers to the food supply. They are small enough to climb the round manatee grass blades and all the macros too.

I do believe the grasses grow slower in the winter. Somewhere in my reading I remember seeing summer referred to as their growing season. I adjust the temp down a touch in winter to give them a seasonal temperature dynamic.


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As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
our desire to conquer and control everything, and walk hand in hand with Mother Nature. -Walter Adey

Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Sandbar Lagoon, START DATE November 28, 2018
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Unread 12/24/2021, 06:40 AM   #2124
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I think Hermit crabs are fascinating creatures. However, they are inferior to snails in the practical world of aquarium clean up crews. Plus they kill snails for their shells, so you have to choose one or the other. Sure, you can toss a bunch of hermits in a tank full of algae and no other food and they'll eat it, but once they get a taste for fish food their utility plummets.

I have an army of Dove Snails, which max out at 1/2 inch. They reproduce to match their numbers to the food supply. They are small enough to climb the round manatee grass blades and all the macros too.

I do believe the grasses grow slower in the winter. Somewhere in my reading I remember seeing summer referred to as their growing season. I adjust the temp down a touch in winter to give them a seasonal temperature dynamic.
Thank you! I guess I need to do some more reading on hermit crabs. I want to keep both snails and hermits but the snails are more important. The hermits would be there mostly to eat excess mysis since the seahorses are messy eaters. I thought I could toss a bunch of shells for the hermit crabs into the tank and I'd be good. I keep terrestrial hermit crabs but even then they are a single species tank. I was fascinated with the idea of keeping aquatic hermit crabs but I want the tank to work more then indulge in my fascination ;P


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Unread 12/24/2021, 10:42 AM   #2125
Michael Hoaster
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Even better than hermits for fish food cleanup are the Nassarius Snails. They hide under the sand until feeding time. Then they pop up and surprisingly quickly go after the leftovers. They apparently have an amazing sense of smell because they make a b-line right to it!

When I have more time, I'd love to get into cleanup crews with you. Right now I better get back to cleaning house for Christmas!


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As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
our desire to conquer and control everything, and walk hand in hand with Mother Nature. -Walter Adey

Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Sandbar Lagoon, START DATE November 28, 2018

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