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Unread 07/15/2007, 06:04 PM   #251
davidryder
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Quote:
Originally posted by sirreal63
I think most people have already said do what works best for you, no one is pointing a gun here.

David...it was a joke, I am more than capable of using a two part system as is anyone and anyone is capable of using a calcium reactor. In my experience the reactor was easier, your mileage may vary.
Oh! I misinterpreted that big time!!! I sowwy!!


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Unread 07/15/2007, 07:16 PM   #252
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Quote:
Originally posted by davidryder
You are a big fan of apples and oranges huh?

The reason DIY 2-part is being compared to name brand, commercial reactors is because it's just as easy to put together a DIY 2-part doser as it is a commercial, boxed up 2-part dosing system. DIY reactors are IMO in a completely different league of DIY. I wouldn't even know where to start... and I'd imagine by the time I was finished the costs for all the material & labor would come close to a commercial reactor. So IMO it's not apples to oranges at all, it's apples to apples to apples to apples to apples....

And in case you didn't notice, the math can be manipulated to show a valid estimate of any amount, for either system...
I'd say I'm not the one who has the gift for disparate fruit comparisons. Protest as you may, but sophomoric rhetorical techniques don't change the fact that DIY is DIY, and your self-confessed inability to fathom a way to make your own reactor from any number of plans that are available doesn't change the reality that it's successfully done all the time. Since we're on fruit analogies, I'd file your reply under 'sour grapes'.

As to your protest that math can be 'manipulated', in case you didn't notice, the only thing that's being manipulated here is the truth. For the rest of us, a jaunt over to the hardware Buy/Sell forum will tell you that my numbers are spot-on.


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Unread 07/15/2007, 08:38 PM   #253
davidryder
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rovert
I'd say I'm not the one who has the gift for disparate fruit comparisons. Protest as you may, but sophomoric rhetorical techniques don't change the fact that DIY is DIY, and your self-confessed inability to fathom a way to make your own reactor from any number of plans that are available doesn't change the reality that it's successfully done all the time. Since we're on fruit analogies, I'd file your reply under 'sour grapes'.

As to your protest that math can be 'manipulated', in case you didn't notice, the only thing that's being manipulated here is the truth. For the rest of us, a jaunt over to the hardware Buy/Sell forum will tell you that my numbers are spot-on.
Well, from the beginning of this thread you have advocated Ca Rx as the best method under the decoy of "Let's find the best method". Several have stated that either method works seemingly fine and it also seems that everyone has different figures either showing that Ca Rx is cheaper or 2-part is cheaper. I don't really see what makes your figures so magical.

I'm not an advocate of either - there have been several replies from users of both methods that have indicated that they are perfectly happy with what they have. If I have to choose between the two methods in the future and have the money, I will probably get a fairly nice Ca Rx. If I don't have the money to spend, I'll get a cheap DIY 2-part. I would feel comfortable buying a used Ca Rx but I wouldn't want to build one myself or buy a cheap one just to save money. Besides, resale value of dosing pumps is pretty high so there wouldn't be much loss involved in switching over later.

And if you are really trying to debate the fact that a DIY 2-part is both cheaper and easier than a DIY Ca Rx then I don't really know what to say... DIY isn't DIY when you compare the ease and cost of a DIY 2-part and the ease and cost of a DIY Ca Rx. It takes literally 10 minutes and intuitive knowledge to throw together a 2-part dosing system. That simply cannot be said about a Ca Rx. And somebody mentioned it before, but where you get the chemicals from, the pool (grocery) store or pet store, doesn't make it DIY.

It's a matter of what people want, not which is better or cheaper. And who's to say that the numbers you produced in your setup is the setup everyone wants? Or even more realistically, what people actually setup? And the same goes with 2-part systems.

Don't take it so personal - and try not to get so caught up on what is better. Snarkys reply below says it all - it's just preference. This thread, if nothing else, has proved that it really comes down to preference & budget.


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Unread 07/15/2007, 08:46 PM   #254
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I think tank size is the deciding factor. Smaller tanks, under 60 gallons, a 2 part mix is simple, works and very economic.


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Unread 07/15/2007, 09:56 PM   #255
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Quote:
Originally posted by davidryder
This thread, if nothing else, has proved that it really comes down to preference & budget.
And tank size.


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Unread 07/15/2007, 10:23 PM   #256
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Quote:
Originally posted by jdieck
And tank size.
I think I would agree with that!

How did you make those charts? Great job, again!


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Unread 07/15/2007, 11:07 PM   #257
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Quote:
Originally posted by davidryder
Well, from the beginning of this thread you have advocated Ca Rx as the best method under the decoy of "Let's find the best method"... yadda, yadda... I don't really see what makes your figures so magical.
Ah, to be a college student again, and know everything. And already the budding psychologist, too!

To set the record straight, the figures aren't mine. Unless you want to intentionally ignore jdieck's charts which he reposted again on page 10.

Anyway, I'm out of this one. I wouldn't presume to argue with an expert.


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Unread 07/15/2007, 11:15 PM   #258
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Quote:
Originally posted by davidryder
I think I would agree with that!

How did you make those charts? Great job, again!
I developed a model in Excel to calculate the costs.
The range of cost is so wide, that is why I added the second part so each one can calculate their own, and I mean the difference is not only between DIY Two part and a Reactor but within reactor systems themselves and even within DIY sourcing costs. Once you have your equipment estimates based on your preferences then just add the consumables portion. I bet it will be different for everyone and for every system.


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Current Tank Info: 225 gal reef, DSB, 40 g sump w/ LRT100 return, 37 g pre-sump, 3 MH 250 W 15K, 4 96 W PC dual actinic,ETS 1500 Skim.w/LRT70, 20 lb Ca R., 40 W UV, 1/3 HP chiller, two 350 W Htrs, Neptune II Cont., 330 P LR/ 330 P LS. 55 gal Refugium
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Unread 07/15/2007, 11:28 PM   #259
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Any way I could get a copy of that Excel file? I'd like to make the point to my friend that a CaRx is not the ideal solution for her tank, and it'd be easier for her to twaddle with the numbers on her own, so she can see it for herself.


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Unread 07/18/2007, 10:04 PM   #260
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i know nothing so i go by what i see the pros r doing.
75% of the pros with nice sps dominate reefs switched from ca reactors to dose 2 parts.
reason: 70% low ph in the am.
20% too much equipment to hook up (ex. kalk reactor).
10% trying to reduce space.

0% switch back to ca reactor

the # speaks for themselves
for those that have switched back to ca reactor, pls post here and let me have it.


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Unread 07/18/2007, 10:15 PM   #261
jdieck
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Quote:
Originally posted by reef888
i know nothing so i go by what i see the pros r doing.
75% of the pros with nice sps dominate reefs switched from ca reactors to dose 2 parts.
reason: 70% low ph in the am.
20% too much equipment to hook up (ex. kalk reactor).
10% trying to reduce space.

0% switch back to ca reactor

the # speaks for themselves
for those that have switched back to ca reactor, pls post here and let me have it.

I would like to see were did you get the numbers from, I doubt many with a 200+ gallon tanks would have switched back from a reactor.


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Current Tank Info: 225 gal reef, DSB, 40 g sump w/ LRT100 return, 37 g pre-sump, 3 MH 250 W 15K, 4 96 W PC dual actinic,ETS 1500 Skim.w/LRT70, 20 lb Ca R., 40 W UV, 1/3 HP chiller, two 350 W Htrs, Neptune II Cont., 330 P LR/ 330 P LS. 55 gal Refugium
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Unread 07/18/2007, 10:27 PM   #262
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true.
the tanks i have seen r from 58 gal to 180 gal.
anything over 180 i agree that ca reactor may be a better choice.


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Unread 07/18/2007, 10:32 PM   #263
sirreal63
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Quote:
Originally posted by reef888
i know nothing so i go by what i see the pros r doing.
75% of the pros with nice sps dominate reefs switched from ca reactors to dose 2 parts.
reason: 70% low ph in the am.
20% too much equipment to hook up (ex. kalk reactor).
10% trying to reduce space.

0% switch back to ca reactor

the # speaks for themselves
for those that have switched back to ca reactor, pls post here and let me have it.
Exactly which "professionals" are you referring to? Where did these numbers come from?

Numbers can only speak for themselves if they are quantifiable and if they are not they are rubbish designed to misinform.


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Unread 07/19/2007, 01:59 AM   #264
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davidryder, thanks for the replied.


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Unread 07/19/2007, 07:36 AM   #265
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Quote:
Originally posted by jdieck
I doubt many with a 200+ gallon tanks would have switched back from a reactor.
Ya know , i hear this a lot but i don't really understand it. Id say the average 100 gallon tank uses around a gallon of two part every 3-4 weeks. If you have a 200 gallon system you could just as easily use 2 gallon jugs which are just taller . Anything over 200 has a fish room or a lot of room under the tank so you could use 5 gallon buckets or stack 10 gallon rubbermaid tubs.

I'm sure if it cost too much you would be motivated to find someone local that can sell you 50# bags for cheap. A CA RX system that can legitimately keep up with a 200+ gallon tank won't come cheap either.

I guess if you were still baking the baking soda it would be a pain .



Last edited by Snarkys; 07/19/2007 at 08:02 AM.
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Unread 07/19/2007, 10:35 AM   #266
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Yea, having a big tank and dealing with water chemistry seem hard to maintain, I don't know how people does it with Part A and B/1 and 2 bottle supplements.


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Unread 07/19/2007, 07:07 PM   #267
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below


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Unread 07/19/2007, 07:08 PM   #268
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I have been dosing two part ESV for 12 years and have had no issues. I have been dosing a 65gallon and 30 gallon tank though. I think it woul db eexpensive to dose the 156 gallon I am waiting on. It may be somewhere between $250-400 for the first couple years and probably $500/ year after that. With thousands of dollars invested and not to mention the livestock. $400/year on the average sounds ok to me considering a dog costs plenty more than that to raise each year. A dog compared to a whole ecosystem seems like apples and oranges too. A lot more death can happen in our tanks. Anyway if water quality is the single most important thing in our tanks, I don't see any problem in spoiling our tanks. Now when things start to mature 2-4 years from now I may think differently and want to add on a Calcium Reactor or Kalk Reactor or maybe just dose Kalkwasser as well as 2 part.

The problem I have with everyone thinking it is ok to always dose soda ash/baking soda and calcium chloride is that eventually your ionic balance will be way out of whack and you will be wondering what happened to your tank. Don't know what that's like obviously and I don't think I want to know. I think in moderation it could be ok but from what I have been reading in Julian Spring's new book, it is not a long term solution. I think I will try the 5 galon buckets of ESV for a year and see how things go. More gadgets when the tank matures. If you get a doser for two part eventually you can switch that over or add on another pump for Kalkwasser to keep the costs down. If a few hundred dollars a year is too much to maintain water quality than I think you should rethink having such a big expense. Just my thoughts.


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Unread 07/19/2007, 09:19 PM   #269
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Quote:
Originally posted by bubbletip2
$400/year on the average sounds ok to me considering a dog costs plenty more than that to raise each year. A dog compared to a whole ecosystem seems like apples and oranges too.
OK, on that note, I think we've finally gone into la-la-land. Whether tongue-in-cheek or not, dogs don't eat calcium reactors. But hey... it was funny for the moment.


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Unread 07/19/2007, 10:04 PM   #270
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Hey Rover,

Dogs swim too


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Unread 07/20/2007, 07:00 AM   #271
Rovert
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Quote:
Originally posted by bubbletip2
Hey Rover,

Dogs swim too
Heh...

And with that, this thread has officially gone to the dogs.


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Unread 07/20/2007, 07:16 AM   #272
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snarkys
Y Id say the average 100 gallon tank uses around a gallon of two part every 3-4 weeks.
I am wondering if I have a problem with my tank/dosing system. I am using 1 gallon of each part every 10 days, for a 75g tank in order to maintain alk/ca levels. That seems excessive when compared to the post above. I don't see any place where cac03 is buidling up from precipitation. My corals are growing well, and I have halimdeda which grows fast, so there is a good demand, it just seems odd that my 2 part usage is so much higher.

Does anyone else use 2 part at this high a rate for this size tank? Is there any other reason why a tank would require this much to maintain alk and ca levels besides growth and precipitation? (wondering if I have a problem in the tank)


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Unread 07/20/2007, 07:37 AM   #273
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recipe one or two ?


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Unread 07/20/2007, 08:15 AM   #274
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A 100 gal system that consumes around 1.75 dKh per day will use one gallon each of formula 1 every 30 days and formula 2 every 15 days.
If the system is heavy loaded with sps and clams the consumption can be as high as 3 dKh per day which will increase the consumption to one gal each of formula 1 every 18 days and formula 2 every 8 days.


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Current Tank Info: 225 gal reef, DSB, 40 g sump w/ LRT100 return, 37 g pre-sump, 3 MH 250 W 15K, 4 96 W PC dual actinic,ETS 1500 Skim.w/LRT70, 20 lb Ca R., 40 W UV, 1/3 HP chiller, two 350 W Htrs, Neptune II Cont., 330 P LR/ 330 P LS. 55 gal Refugium
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Unread 07/20/2007, 08:55 AM   #275
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I use Randy's recipe 1.


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Current Tank Info: 75g mostly stonies. DIY LEDs (24 CW XP-G, 48 RB XR-E) on dwizum CAT4101 drivers, DIY Hydra controller, SSB, Korallin Ca Reactor, Euroreef skimmer
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