What is the acceptable level of Phosphate in an SPS tank? - Page 2

Stolireef · 05/22/2017, 05:18 PM

I tend to agree that phosphates that high can be problematic. But, like I said, I can almost always tell if things are going in that direction by simple observation rather than testing.

reefmutt · 05/22/2017, 05:24 PM

This thread is always an eye opener..
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2366953

firefly73 · 05/22/2017, 06:11 PM

.07 max allows for test error (not human eye error though)
some po4 is required by all life . hitting 0 then refreshing gfo etc would not be wise

Denadai · 05/22/2017, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reefmutt

This thread is always an eye opener..
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2366953

I don´t believe in this thread

I have seen a lot of sps dying / not growing / brown in tanks with po4 > 0.1

This is a very easy test to do....2 tanks, 10 frags...everything the same but one tank run gfo to keep po4 =~ 0.02 and the other tank without gfo to raise po4 > 0.1

I can bet that the overall heathy / color will be much better if po4 =~0.02

Best Regards

reefmutt · 05/23/2017, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denadai

I don´t believe in this thread

I have seen a lot of sps dying / not growing / brown in tanks with po4 > 0.1

This is a very easy test to do....2 tanks, 10 frags...everything the same but one tank run gfo to keep po4 =~ 0.02 and the other tank without gfo to raise po4 > 0.1

I can bet that the overall heathy / color will be much better if po4 =~0.02

Best Regards

I don't necessarily disagree with you. Without talking about nuisance algea, lower controlled nutrient levels along with proper coral nutrition is probably better than excess nutrients.. for no other reason than it is not natural to the corals, although, our aquariums are not particularly 'natural'..
However, I do believe that corals are very adaptable when given proper nutrition and stability. I believe that concentrating to, to much on lowering and controlling low nutrient levels can become dangerous.
Denadai, what do you mean by 'I don't believe in this thread'?
Do you mean you don't believe the thread is real, that it is fake somehow? Or, do you mean you just don't agree with Richard's theories about higher nutrient levels?

cobra2326 · 05/27/2017, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denadai

I don´t believe in this thread

I have seen a lot of sps dying / not growing / brown in tanks with po4 > 0.1

This is a very easy test to do....2 tanks, 10 frags...everything the same but one tank run gfo to keep po4 =~ 0.02 and the other tank without gfo to raise po4 > 0.1

I can bet that the overall heathy / color will be much better if po4 =~0.02

Best Regards

Agreed. One issue I had with that thread is there is a lot of opinions and not many facts. The dispute about where the 0.03 number came from and calling it arbitrary is just ignorant. Randy and many others have talked about it in their articles as being the number at which phosphate becomes limiting for algae growth. There are many citations available for this, as well as numbers around inhibition of calcification. Lets not go round in circles about already published science.

Piper27 · 05/29/2017, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denadai

I don´t believe in this thread

Do you not agree with Rich or do you think his test numbers are made up? I am curious as to what you think for sure.

As to Rich's theory's, I think his tank is a one of a kind if his test numbers are right. In that I mean I don't think anyone should try to keep sps in levels that high for any reason. His system must have developed like that over time and things slowly aclimated to it. It's not healthy for anyone to set up a tank and say "I have a goal to have abnormally high po4 and nitrate in this tank. I don't believe there are many people at all I that can intentionally replicate what he has done if they tried too.
It would also be nice to see some macro shots of his corals. I mean it would help prove his point to show the corals in pictures more focused and detailed than a front tank shot.

I will stick to my beliefs that .03 and lower is best for keeping good sps colors and growth with little issues.

Denadai · 05/29/2017, 07:27 AM

I just don´t believe , wrong numbers, wrong story....

reefmutt · 05/29/2017, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denadai

I just don´t believe , wrong numbers, wrong story....

Denadai, do you know Richard Ross is a marine biologist at The California Acadamy of Sciences? He is in charge of one of the largest captive reef aquariums in the world, at the Steinhart Aquarium.
I highly doubt he is getting his numbers wrong..
Perhaps I am misunderstanding your post..

This is not to say that what he is doing with his own personal aquarium is the absolute right thing to do.. I doubt even he would say that, but to discount it as false or wrong is irresponsible.
What he is doing is certainly not the accepted norm and we don't see the typical accelerated growth in his tank that we often see in low nutrient tanks but it certainly is thriving..

Going back to the original intent of this thread.. I would agree that a good target for p is somewhere between .03 and .1. That is certainly my experience as it is for most but to doggedly chase those numbers without paying close attention the the health of the tank can lead new reefers to kill lots of corals..
On the other hand, ignoring the levels and letting them get extremely high may lead the the same bad result.
So, yes there is probably a range in which most tanks will thrive but clearly there are thriving tanks that fall outside of that range.

Denadai · 05/29/2017, 08:55 AM

I have a lot of experience with SPS

When I buy a new brown SPS the water in the store has po4 > 0.08 and no3 > 5 ppm

My reef now : no3 =~ 1 ppm and Po4 =~ 0.02 ppm

Why always the SPS in the store are brown and when I put in my tank after 30 days the corals become red, pink, green ??? Why ??

Also I had experience with my own tanks....always when my no3 and po4 rises corals get brown, suffer with stn , rtn or even die. Why ?

Why the best aquariums in the world has low po4 and no3 ?

I would love to not concern about po4 and no3 anymore.

I would like to see any experiment with 4 or 5 frags....is very simple to do and we can debate about that. Two tanks, the same frags, one po4>0.2 and the other po4 =~0.02. Who will test for us ? :-) :-)

I never saw a SPS tank looks good in the long run with high po4.

Reef aquarium is science...if one tank thrive with high po4 the others also must thrive.

Best Regards

slavetonet · 05/29/2017, 06:21 PM

I can turn any brown sps piece from LFS in about 2 weeks to somewhat their original colours.
PO4 and NO3 play a part in it as long as it stays within the NO3 is between 0.2ppm to 5.0ppm and PO4 is between 0.01 ppm to 0.05ppm.
I use trace elements and amino / vitamins to do my colours of my sps.
I don't chase numbers as much as I used to, as it just works now.

Regards,
Kevin

cobra2326 · 05/29/2017, 07:09 PM

I read Rich's article he published in 2014 I believe, and it was an interesting read. There's definitely something else at play in these mature tanks that run elevated levels. Sanjay's is similar.

I have no developed opinion yet, only a few hypotheses. We don't really know as much as we think we know, that's for sure. It would definitely appear that something is preventing algae from taking over in these tanks. Could be iron, could be something else.

The relationship between brown corals and nutrients appears to be very complex and could have something to do with levels of organic nutrients, light and many, many other factors. I hope we can develop a better understanding of this going forward. I am currently under the impression that you want inorganics low and potentially higher organics, but even that I'm unsure of.

I still agree with Denadai. The high nutrient, successful SPS tanks are much less common than lower ones. The ones I'm aware of are also very mature tanks, and perhaps have settled into balance. (Whatever that means)

markalot · 06/02/2017, 08:41 AM

Some plant species need acidic soil to grow well, but over the years breeders have found certain varieties of those same species that, for whatever reason, can survive in conditions others can't. These varieties have been bred for years and sold to people well outside the native range of the plant. People have been breeding plants a LOT longer than corals and I'm sure folks willing to experiment had to put up with a lot of doubters over the years.

I believe it's important to think about this when making blanket statements about corals, rather than doubting someones data. There may in fact be many varieties of acros that cannot tolerate high PO4, I don't doubt it for a second, but there are also varieties that seem to do well, grow well, and even color well. Maybe not the intense coloration one might expect from more natural nutrient levels but we seem to have enough data to show that higher nutrients may not be the death sentence so many of us thought it was.

Stability of whatever the levels (PO4, NO3, KH, etc) appears to be THE most important quality of a healthy tank (some mor eimportant than others) and evidence is building that given rock solid stability many other 'bad' params are not nearly as important.

Denadai · 06/02/2017, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markalot

Stability of whatever the levels (PO4, NO3, KH, etc) appears to be THE most important quality of a healthy tank (some mor eimportant than others) and evidence is building that given rock solid stability many other 'bad' params are not nearly as important.

My nano was the proof for me that stability is not so important as people think

My nano had huge oscillation in temperature when I did water changes, daily oscillation in alk and ca and corals was good, but no3 and po4 was close zero.

Of course some SPS can thrive in high po4 condition, but I look for a lot of SPS and not the ones that can survive in high po4 condition.

For me a mature tank ( old tank ) is more important than stability

Best Regards

swk · 06/02/2017, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denadai

I don´t believe is possible to have healthy and colorful SPS with PO4 > 0.1 in the long run

Best Regards

I would heartily disagree with this statement.

Denadai · 06/02/2017, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swk

I would heartily disagree with this statement.

So zeovit is wrong, Aqua Forest is wrong, Fauna Marin is wrong, Red Sea reef care program is wrong.

Also almost all TOTM waste time and money trying to keep low levels of po4

Show me at least 15 mature tanks, from frags to colonies with high po4

Best Regards

swk · 06/02/2017, 04:03 PM

I can't show you 15 but I can show you mine.

swk · 06/02/2017, 04:05 PM

And I never said all those companies are wrong - I said that I don't agree with your statement. How did people have sps reefs that thrived before gfo and cheap phosphate testing?

Those companies methods certainly work, and are successful at having the user buy LOTS of expensive little bottles to add things back to the tank after they have you strip it all out.

There's more than one way to skin this cat, and to say one way cannot be done is narrow minded. There are many ways to arrive at the end product of a healthy reef.

Denadai · 06/02/2017, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swk

There's more than one way to skin this cat, and to say one way cannot be done is narrow minded. There are many ways to arrive at the end product of a healthy reef.

Sure you can , my po4 = 0.02 ppm with hanna, 8 tangs in 180G and I´m using just chaetomorpha and a good skimmer

But we are talking about high po4, 10x or more against low po4 in nature

jda · 06/02/2017, 04:53 PM

Before GFO and low level Hannah test kits, there was good husbandry like water changes, growing chaeto (growing it well), growing and exporting coral, feeding responsibly with a responsible fish load. Back then, people also had larger tanks and fewer bio-cubes and nanos which is a bit easier to keep P under check with larger sumps and water volume and stuff.

There was no ULR Hannah test kit, but you did have phosphate test kits that would change color and you always wanted to be "clear." In today's terms, "clear" on Salifert is about 3-4 on a Hannah ULR checker... which is .009 or .01 PPM. There have been tools to do this since I got into this in 1992 - it isn't like folks were still making wheels with chisels back then.

IMO, most folks are going to get farther with this by betting on the rule rather than the exception. There are exceptions to everything which are interesting and worth noting. There are are studies that can show anything - I once had a professor in college tell us that he could commission a study to show beyond a doubt that our fathers were really our mothers and vice versa. In the end, most of the best or the best go with the rule, IME.

Stolireef · 06/02/2017, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jda

I once had a professor in college tell us that he could commission a study to show beyond a doubt that our fathers were really our mothers and vice versa.

I'm an anthias and my father was my mother.

ifarmer · 06/02/2017, 05:30 PM

I dont know what phosphate is and i cant see them.
Not sure what it does to corals and tank.

Ever since i got my foot wet in this hobby since 2008.

From reading what many advance and experienced reefers or advance hobbyst share their knowledges. They recommend to always keep phosphate at zero for the health of the tank and corals.
So because of that i always try to keep it as closer to zero if not zero if possible.

Sent from my GT-I9192 using Tapatalk

reefmutt · 06/02/2017, 06:01 PM

June 2015

July 2015

May 2017

The red coral to the left of the big green coral is first image above. Not quite a colony..
Big green coral is middle photo above.. pretty much a colony..
Upper left corner is the third image above.. again not a huge colony..

June 2015

June 2017

Green one was also grown from frag..

In head two years I have struggled to keep p below .1. It had stayed mostly in the .08 to .17 range. Since last October. It has never been below .17 and has been as high as .22
N was was at 5 ppm until last October where it climbe to around 40-50ppm. Has been there ever since..

Have I had amazing growth? No. Have my corals looked better with lower p? Absolutely! Do I want to keep my nutrients where that are?? Absolutely not!
I want them lower to have better colour..
However, my corals are not brown, young frags or dead..

markalot · 06/03/2017, 05:48 AM

So I've always wondered what has killed more corals in our reef tanks.

High PO4?

GFO?

The common theme for reefers new to SPS tanks, and mine was one of them, is concern over high PO4 and misuse of GFO resulting in a rapid PO4 drop and coral loss.

There are plenty of examples of higher PO4 SPS tanks that do quite well so why be overly concerned with PO4 while learning how to keep things stable and not overreact? Once the reefer learns the importance of stability then PO4 can be tackled if desired.

jda · 06/03/2017, 04:57 PM

Organic carbon dosing can be quite dangerous since you can literally get down to nothing. Since GFO will only bind to equilibrium, you can get low, but not run out... it is hard to get into too much trouble with GFO unless you really, really overdo it... but your point is a good one... chasing zero can also be very dangerous and do damage.

05/22/2017, 05:18 PM	#26
Stolireef Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Scottsdale AZ Posts: 3,180 Blog Entries: 5	I tend to agree that phosphates that high can be problematic. But, like I said, I can almost always tell if things are going in that direction by simple observation rather than testing. __________________ I want to burn twice as bright and half as long. Oh, and a full tank crash is just an excuse for a new build. Current Tank Info: 125 Rimless Leemar, Apex, Trigger 30 Elite Sump, Vertex 180i Skimmer, 2 X Gen4 Radion XR30W, BM Doser, 2xMP40WES, 2xTunze 6095, Sicce Syncra 4.0.

05/22/2017, 05:24 PM	#27
reefmutt Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Mtl. Canada Posts: 7,824	This thread is always an eye opener.. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2366953 __________________ Matt. Current Tank Info: 53x32.5x26 190g dt 60g of sumps 3 tank-100 gal frag system 6xAI prime 8xt5. 4x maxspect gyre. Skimz Dual internal sicce pump skimmer Deltec PF601s ca rx+Kalk stirrer

05/22/2017, 06:11 PM	#28
firefly73 LOVE HANDLE JACKAROO Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 147	.07 max allows for test error (not human eye error though) some po4 is required by all life . hitting 0 then refreshing gfo etc would not be wise __________________ So many ways to achieve to same outcome Current Tank Info: holds water

05/29/2017, 08:55 AM	#35
Denadai Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 1,816	I have a lot of experience with SPS When I buy a new brown SPS the water in the store has po4 > 0.08 and no3 > 5 ppm My reef now : no3 =~ 1 ppm and Po4 =~ 0.02 ppm Why always the SPS in the store are brown and when I put in my tank after 30 days the corals become red, pink, green ??? Why ?? Also I had experience with my own tanks....always when my no3 and po4 rises corals get brown, suffer with stn , rtn or even die. Why ? Why the best aquariums in the world has low po4 and no3 ? I would love to not concern about po4 and no3 anymore. I would like to see any experiment with 4 or 5 frags....is very simple to do and we can debate about that. Two tanks, the same frags, one po4>0.2 and the other po4 =~0.02. Who will test for us ? :-) :-) I never saw a SPS tank looks good in the long run with high po4. Reef aquarium is science...if one tank thrive with high po4 the others also must thrive. Best Regards Last edited by Denadai; 05/29/2017 at 09:01 AM.

05/29/2017, 07:09 PM	#37
cobra2326 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Spring Hill, FL Posts: 563	I read Rich's article he published in 2014 I believe, and it was an interesting read. There's definitely something else at play in these mature tanks that run elevated levels. Sanjay's is similar. I have no developed opinion yet, only a few hypotheses. We don't really know as much as we think we know, that's for sure. It would definitely appear that something is preventing algae from taking over in these tanks. Could be iron, could be something else. The relationship between brown corals and nutrients appears to be very complex and could have something to do with levels of organic nutrients, light and many, many other factors. I hope we can develop a better understanding of this going forward. I am currently under the impression that you want inorganics low and potentially higher organics, but even that I'm unsure of. I still agree with Denadai. The high nutrient, successful SPS tanks are much less common than lower ones. The ones I'm aware of are also very mature tanks, and perhaps have settled into balance. (Whatever that means) __________________ Jon Aquatic Log: http://www.aquaticlog.com/aquariums/cobra2326/1 Nuvo Fusion Build Thread: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2636370 Current Tank Info: Nuvo Fusion 10

05/29/2017, 07:27 AM	#33
Denadai Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 1,816	I just don´t believe , wrong numbers, wrong story....

05/29/2017, 06:21 PM	#36
slavetonet Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Brisbane Australia Posts: 442	I can turn any brown sps piece from LFS in about 2 weeks to somewhat their original colours. PO4 and NO3 play a part in it as long as it stays within the NO3 is between 0.2ppm to 5.0ppm and PO4 is between 0.01 ppm to 0.05ppm. I use trace elements and amino / vitamins to do my colours of my sps. I don't chase numbers as much as I used to, as it just works now. Regards, Kevin

06/02/2017, 08:41 AM	#38
markalot ... Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Florence, KY Posts: 3,806 Blog Entries: 3	Some plant species need acidic soil to grow well, but over the years breeders have found certain varieties of those same species that, for whatever reason, can survive in conditions others can't. These varieties have been bred for years and sold to people well outside the native range of the plant. People have been breeding plants a LOT longer than corals and I'm sure folks willing to experiment had to put up with a lot of doubters over the years. I believe it's important to think about this when making blanket statements about corals, rather than doubting someones data. There may in fact be many varieties of acros that cannot tolerate high PO4, I don't doubt it for a second, but there are also varieties that seem to do well, grow well, and even color well. Maybe not the intense coloration one might expect from more natural nutrient levels but we seem to have enough data to show that higher nutrients may not be the death sentence so many of us thought it was. Stability of whatever the levels (PO4, NO3, KH, etc) appears to be THE most important quality of a healthy tank (some mor eimportant than others) and evidence is building that given rock solid stability many other 'bad' params are not nearly as important. __________________ -- Mark 150G (72x18x27) \| 35G sump \| SRO-XP2000INT Skimmer \| ATI SunPower T5 / NanoBox LED hybrid 60" x 4 + 8 NanoBox v3.1 arrays

06/02/2017, 04:03 PM	#42
swk Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Wine Country CA Posts: 2,593	I can't show you 15 but I can show you mine. __________________ Member of Wine Country Reefers Current Tank Info: 75 gal SPS dominant reef. Geo calcium reactor with masterflex pump, Deltec 1455 skimmer, 2 mp40QD, mp10wes, lit by a 6x54 dimable ATI sunpower and controlled by Reef Angel

06/02/2017, 04:05 PM	#43
swk Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Wine Country CA Posts: 2,593	What is the acceptable level of Phosphate in an SPS tank? And I never said all those companies are wrong - I said that I don't agree with your statement. How did people have sps reefs that thrived before gfo and cheap phosphate testing? Those companies methods certainly work, and are successful at having the user buy LOTS of expensive little bottles to add things back to the tank after they have you strip it all out. There's more than one way to skin this cat, and to say one way cannot be done is narrow minded. There are many ways to arrive at the end product of a healthy reef. __________________ Member of Wine Country Reefers Current Tank Info: 75 gal SPS dominant reef. Geo calcium reactor with masterflex pump, Deltec 1455 skimmer, 2 mp40QD, mp10wes, lit by a 6x54 dimable ATI sunpower and controlled by Reef Angel

06/02/2017, 04:53 PM	#45
jda Dogmatic Dinosaur Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 6,256	Before GFO and low level Hannah test kits, there was good husbandry like water changes, growing chaeto (growing it well), growing and exporting coral, feeding responsibly with a responsible fish load. Back then, people also had larger tanks and fewer bio-cubes and nanos which is a bit easier to keep P under check with larger sumps and water volume and stuff. There was no ULR Hannah test kit, but you did have phosphate test kits that would change color and you always wanted to be "clear." In today's terms, "clear" on Salifert is about 3-4 on a Hannah ULR checker... which is .009 or .01 PPM. There have been tools to do this since I got into this in 1992 - it isn't like folks were still making wheels with chisels back then. IMO, most folks are going to get farther with this by betting on the rule rather than the exception. There are exceptions to everything which are interesting and worth noting. There are are studies that can show anything - I once had a professor in college tell us that he could commission a study to show beyond a doubt that our fathers were really our mothers and vice versa. In the end, most of the best or the best go with the rule, IME.

06/02/2017, 05:30 PM	#47
ifarmer Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: New York City Posts: 243	I dont know what phosphate is and i cant see them. Not sure what it does to corals and tank. Ever since i got my foot wet in this hobby since 2008. From reading what many advance and experienced reefers or advance hobbyst share their knowledges. They recommend to always keep phosphate at zero for the health of the tank and corals. So because of that i always try to keep it as closer to zero if not zero if possible. Sent from my GT-I9192 using Tapatalk Last edited by ifarmer; 06/02/2017 at 05:46 PM.

06/02/2017, 06:01 PM	#48
reefmutt Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Mtl. Canada Posts: 7,824	June 2015 July 2015 July 2015 May 2017 The red coral to the left of the big green coral is first image above. Not quite a colony.. Big green coral is middle photo above.. pretty much a colony.. Upper left corner is the third image above.. again not a huge colony.. June 2015 June 2017 Green one was also grown from frag.. In head two years I have struggled to keep p below .1. It had stayed mostly in the .08 to .17 range. Since last October. It has never been below .17 and has been as high as .22 N was was at 5 ppm until last October where it climbe to around 40-50ppm. Has been there ever since.. Have I had amazing growth? No. Have my corals looked better with lower p? Absolutely! Do I want to keep my nutrients where that are?? Absolutely not! I want them lower to have better colour.. However, my corals are not brown, young frags or dead.. __________________ Matt. Current Tank Info: 53x32.5x26 190g dt 60g of sumps 3 tank-100 gal frag system 6xAI prime 8xt5. 4x maxspect gyre. Skimz Dual internal sicce pump skimmer Deltec PF601s ca rx+Kalk stirrer

06/03/2017, 05:48 AM	#49
markalot ... Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Florence, KY Posts: 3,806 Blog Entries: 3	So I've always wondered what has killed more corals in our reef tanks. High PO4? GFO? The common theme for reefers new to SPS tanks, and mine was one of them, is concern over high PO4 and misuse of GFO resulting in a rapid PO4 drop and coral loss. There are plenty of examples of higher PO4 SPS tanks that do quite well so why be overly concerned with PO4 while learning how to keep things stable and not overreact? Once the reefer learns the importance of stability then PO4 can be tackled if desired. __________________ -- Mark 150G (72x18x27) \| 35G sump \| SRO-XP2000INT Skimmer \| ATI SunPower T5 / NanoBox LED hybrid 60" x 4 + 8 NanoBox v3.1 arrays

06/03/2017, 04:57 PM	#50
jda Dogmatic Dinosaur Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 6,256	Organic carbon dosing can be quite dangerous since you can literally get down to nothing. Since GFO will only bind to equilibrium, you can get low, but not run out... it is hard to get into too much trouble with GFO unless you really, really overdo it... but your point is a good one... chasing zero can also be very dangerous and do damage.