\Clownfish/ 29 Gallon BioCube Tank - Page 3

\Clownfish/ · 02/05/2015, 02:30 PM

Okay, so ill wait for ammonia to go up the scale (0) and then wait for Nitrite to go up (0) then test nitrates.

fritzz1111 · 02/05/2015, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soulpatch

I disagree with this. You typically want the ammonia to build up to the 2ppm or so to encourage the bacteria to build up in prep for your enhanced bioload. Sure you have some die off but that is the purpose as that die off also feeds some of the bacteria in the tank. You dont want to do a water change till you are closer to the end of the cycle.

This is a good article:

http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/resour...shless-cycling

Changing the water only removes those items that are encouraging the growth of bacteria and slows your cycle.

The only reason you would swap water and try to keep ammonia down a bit is if you were doing a fish cycle or had other live stock so as to not damage them.

Quote:

[URL="I disagree with this. You typically want the ammonia to build up to the 2ppm or so to encourage the bacteria to build up in prep for your enhanced bioload. Sure you have some die off but that is the purpose as that die off also feeds some of the bacteria in the tank. You dont want to do a water change till you are closer to the end of the cycle."]...

Quote:

The only reason you would swap water and try to keep ammonia down a bit is if you were doing a fish cycle or had other live stock so as to not damage them.

I should have better clarified. I don't disagree with what you are saying at all. However, the rock and sand I use is live (out of the ocean delivered to my local airport wet - live) and covered with life.

In making my comment I was thinking we ( \Clownfhis/ and I ) were taking similar approaches (using different methods) of cycling our tanks and therefore didn't think to clarify why I didn't want to kill off my live rock in the process.

During the process I'm sharing, the goal is to keep the ammonia levels under 1.00ppm which will help keep additional die off to a minimum. I'm actually doing it on a new build now (which will make my fourth using this process).

During times past I've had to do multiple water changes to keep ammonia levels at or below 1.00ppm. Fortunately, with this current build I've only had to do one 25% water change (day 3 - ammonia was 1.25ppm) and since then it has not been above 1.00ppm, and in fact all readings (ammonia, nitrite and nitrates) this morning are at 0.

So now I'm ready to add the other half of the wet, live rock, cuc's, sponges, and gorgonians and whatever else decides to tag along on the rock!

To add to what you were saying though, yes, if I constantly did water changes keeping the levels I had at and below 1ppm in hopes of achieving/maintaining a 0 reading, I would have most certainly extended my cycling time.

Sorry for any confusion all that may have caused.

Azedenkae · 02/05/2015, 02:46 PM

It is good to know all three all the time, to see what may or may not need work on. It is untrue that it has to be a spike-drop-next-one-spike cycle. For example here, it is clear that both ammonia and nitrites are high. What does that mean?

Well that indicates that there is quite a number of ammonia-reducing bacteria already. Measuring nitrate might see plenty, and that would for example indicate that there is nitrite-reducing bacteria already.

So measuring everything gives a good, clear idea of what is going on at all times. Heck, I even measure phosphates to see the changes in it over time.

And that's the other thing, 'changes over time'. If you measure no ammonia and no nitrite, but say, 40ppm nitrate. Did it rise to that point? Or decrease? And how fast did it get there? Sure eventually after subsequent tests you would know, but why bother with that.

I like to keep track of everything constantly. And see the changes. For example, here is day 6 of my cycle: http://sosofishy.blogspot.com.au/201...ini-sea-4.html

Parameters are all over the place, coming from this on day 5: http://sosofishy.blogspot.com.au/201...ini-sea-3.html

Then day 7: http://sosofishy.blogspot.com.au/201...ini-sea-5.html

So after adding seafood, everything spiked and then dropped. If I had not test nitrite or nitrate there, I would probably be thoroughly confused.

JammyBirch · 02/05/2015, 06:37 PM

This is a great thread you're doing a great job documenting the cycle, when you are done and add a CUC this should be a sticky in the "new to hobby" forum.

\Clownfish/ · 02/05/2015, 10:59 PM

Thank you JammyBirch

Day #4 still

So I just re-tested again and something's have changed while others stayed the same.

Parameters for today

Ammonia - 4.0 ppm (went up a tad from 5.0 ppm)
Nitrite - 5.0 ppm (stayed the same since this mornings testing)
Nitrate - 2.0 ppm (Has gone up since I tested last)
Phosphate - 0.5 ppm (last test was at 0.0 ppm)
Salinity - 1.025

Tank today (water seems more clear since I removed the shrimp since this morning.)

Azedenkae · 02/05/2015, 11:13 PM

Cool. Well can't really say much yet, but at least you know now that you have both ammonia- and nitrite-reducing bacteria.

Continue testing all that, and more can be said each day.

mx29 · 02/06/2015, 04:06 AM

Looks awesome and so this is the fishless method. Now how hard is it to cycle a new tank with say one clown fish in there with the live Rock and sand? Does it stress the fish to much with the spikes in ammonia, nitrite and nitrates?

Azedenkae · 02/06/2015, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mx29

Looks awesome and so this is the fishless method. Now how hard is it to cycle a new tank with say one clown fish in there with the live Rock and sand? Does it stress the fish to much with the spikes in ammonia, nitrite and nitrates?

With live rock and sand, it depends. If it is cured, and you are cycling via feeding the fish, then it may not be so bad.

It is is uncured, lot's of die-off, then ammonia might spike to a point whereby the Clown will not be able to withstand.

\Clownfish/ · 02/06/2015, 02:04 PM

Day #5

Today's parameters

Ammonia - 2.0ppm (went up yay!

)
Nitrite - 3.0 ppm (seems lighter than yesterday)
Nitrate - 4.0 ppm (went from 2.0 to 4.0)
Phosphate - 1.0 ppm (went from 0.5 to 1.0)
Salinity - 1.026 (lowered it a bit with distilled water)

Tank today (water is clearing up again)

\Clownfish/ · 02/06/2015, 11:17 PM

Decided to share this with you all. My progress so far

the app I'm using is Aquarimate. Really neat app where you can keep track of everything

mx29 · 02/06/2015, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azedenkae

With live rock and sand, it depends. If it is cured, and you are cycling via feeding the fish, then it may not be so bad.

It is is uncured, lot's of die-off, then ammonia might spike to a point whereby the Clown will not be able to withstand.

I would also be starting a bc29 as first tank and would do like 20lbs of dry Rock and seed it with 10lbs of uncured live rock. So it would be better and a safer bet to just let the tank cycle without a fish so not to put to much stress on the fish and run the chance of it dieing off?

cherubfish pair · 02/07/2015, 12:08 AM

One thing a lot of people do right after their initial cycle is to get a clean up crew. I would refrain from doing this until they have something to eat like turf algae and/or fish poo or you will have to feed them something. Fish food is good enough but make sure to turn off the return pump so the food eventually sinks to the bottom instead of going into the back chambers and rotting in their, turning into unwanted nutrients.

cherubfish pair · 02/07/2015, 12:17 AM

One thing a lot of people do after going through their initial cycle is to get a clean up crew before there is nuisance algae or fish poo for them to eat. The algae has to be significant or you will have to feed you cuc fish food. Make sure to shut off your return pump until the food sinks to the bottom so that it doesn't overflow into your back chambers. Once there it will won't have a chance to be eaten and will rot turning into unwanted nutrients.

Azedenkae · 02/07/2015, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mx29

I would also be starting a bc29 as first tank and would do like 20lbs of dry Rock and seed it with 10lbs of uncured live rock. So it would be better and a safer bet to just let the tank cycle without a fish so not to put to much stress on the fish and run the chance of it dieing off?

Yeah, that is always a good idea. As in ensuring the tank is fully ready before adding live stock. Once it is ready though, then you are all set to do whatever. Case in point, my first aquarium after the cycle was completed I fully stocked it with five fish and corals, and it was/is a nano. I did have to tear it down as I went on holidays. Just finished re-cycling it within 9 days and stocked it with four fish again, the same residents as before the move (I did buy and sell a few before ending up with these four).

My phosphates is high so I am avoiding corals for now, once I figure out what to do, corals will be back in.

In cases where you have dry rock + uncured live rock which means a lot of die-off, you may not need to initially add any sort of organics. But I tend to bombard my aquariums initially with plenty of food anyways, promotes the growth of beneficial microbes.

Case in point (again), I feed my fish heavily, but ANN is unnoticeable.

[EDIT]

Though, I do have Marine Pure. If you want to not worry so much about ANN, it is good to have a block or the likes that will handle most of the filtration required. Live rock would only then be decorative, and you can use as much (or as little) as you like. In fact, my aquarium is live-rock-less lol. Except for whatever is attached to corals I guess, but otherwise.

mx29 · 02/07/2015, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azedenkae

Yeah, that is always a good idea. As in ensuring the tank is fully ready before adding live stock. Once it is ready though, then you are all set to do whatever. Case in point, my first aquarium after the cycle was completed I fully stocked it with five fish and corals, and it was/is a nano. I did have to tear it down as I went on holidays. Just finished re-cycling it within 9 days and stocked it with four fish again, the same residents as before the move (I did buy and sell a few before ending up with these four).

My phosphates is high so I am avoiding corals for now, once I figure out what to do, corals will be back in.

In cases where you have dry rock + uncured live rock which means a lot of die-off, you may not need to initially add any sort of organics. But I tend to bombard my aquariums initially with plenty of food anyways, promotes the growth of beneficial microbes.

Case in point (again), I feed my fish heavily, but ANN is unnoticeable.

[EDIT]

Though, I do have Marine Pure. If you want to not worry so much about ANN, it is good to have a block or the likes that will handle most of the filtration required. Live rock would only then be decorative, and you can use as much (or as little) as you like. In fact, my aquarium is live-rock-less lol. Except for whatever is attached to corals I guess, but otherwise.

Ok awesome advice thanks. The only other thing I am worrying about is to run a skimmer or not. With the bc29 I have heard plenty of guys and even the owner of my lfs say that I shouldn't run one with the bc29. Suggestions and opinions on this please

JollyFish · 02/07/2015, 11:04 AM

My tank is 3 1/2 weeks old and cycled fast, put 45lbs of coralline live rock, live sand, and nutrisea water in my 29 biocube. Parameter is so stable with no ammonia or nitrite spike. I did not put any table shrimp to produce ammonia. The amount of bacteria is sufficient to kill the ammonia and nitrite. Corals and my pair of clowns are happy.

JollyFish · 02/07/2015, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mx29

Ok awesome advice thanks. The only other thing I am worrying about is to run a skimmer or not. With the bc29 I have heard plenty of guys and even the owner of my lfs say that I shouldn't run one with the bc29. Suggestions and opinions on this please

You do not worry about protein skimmer when your just starting your tank because there is nothing to skim yet. In regards to 29 biocube it still a good idea to run a protein skimmer just to have some skimming at the back to remove some of the bad stuff from water. It doesn't hurt to run a protein skimmer.

mx29 · 02/07/2015, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JollyFish

You do not worry about protein skimmer when your just starting your tank because there is nothing to skim yet. In regards to 29 biocube it still a good idea to run a protein skimmer just to have some skimming at the back to remove some of the bad stuff from water. It doesn't hurt to run a protein skimmer.

Correct I wouldn't use it at the beginning or anything while cycling but later on when I add fish and cuc and everything. Just was asking because at lfs the owner told me I shouldn't run one with only a 29gallon but my gut instink and from Wat i have read on here and everywhere it says it doesn't hurt to run one at all. And more benefits from running one instead of not

\Clownfish/ · 02/07/2015, 12:32 PM

Day #6

Now back on track

I noticed I was calculating my nitrates wrong on my app so here are the correct results. Will be posting test results in a few minutes

and I finally have life moving on my glass Yay!!!

\Clownfish/ · 02/07/2015, 01:49 PM

Parameters Today

Ammonia - 0.75 ppm (its going up the scale

)
Nitrite - 3.0 ppm (still low)
Nitrate - 40 ppm (same as yesterday)
Phosphate - 1.0 ppm (same as yesterday)

Loads of these swimming around and on the glass, best picture I could get(Good or Bad?)

Tank Today (clear

)

cherubfish pair · 02/07/2015, 04:57 PM

That's a copepod (not to be confused with amphipods which are much bigger) and it's a really good sign especially at this point in the game.

acabgd · 02/07/2015, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by \Clownfish/

Parameters Today

Ammonia - 0.75 ppm (its going up the scale

)
Nitrite - 3.0 ppm (still low)

Just a quick note about some semantics.
Your ammonia is not going up, but rather down and it should get to 0. Same with nitrites, they are not "low" and will be going lower, but you should be happy about it.

\Clownfish/ · 02/07/2015, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cherubfish pair

That's a copepod (not to be confused with amphipods which are much bigger) and it's a really good sign especially at this point in the game.

How are they good? And will they survive my second ammonia spike?

cherubfish pair · 02/07/2015, 08:44 PM

Well it's good that something's alive in your tank and it's good to have them in your tank at all times. They provide a food source for your fish, corals, and they are good scavengers getting into some pretty tight places to eat that crud that the other CUC can't get to.

Azedenkae · 02/07/2015, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mx29

Correct I wouldn't use it at the beginning or anything while cycling but later on when I add fish and cuc and everything. Just was asking because at lfs the owner told me I shouldn't run one with only a 29gallon but my gut instink and from Wat i have read on here and everywhere it says it doesn't hurt to run one at all. And more benefits from running one instead of not

I have a motto, 'use the bare minimal for a tank to thrive'. Once you have what it takes for a tank to thrive, any extra would just be more things to worry about.

I work at a LFS and did set plenty of tanks up, with and without skimmer. We ended up tossing a skimmer in the trash once just because it ****ed us off so much. In a nano water levels fluctuate greatly and just, well, argh. The skimmer was horrible at being consistent and finally one time it overflowed. Water got into the socket and er, nothing good came out of that.

Ever since any nano is ran skimmer-less, and it's just so much easier. That's why I refuse to get a skimmer for my nanos. Will be more pain than it is worth.

[EDIT]

For clarification's sake, we tried basically all brands of skimmer available. Just sort of gave up eventually.

Champs to those who could stand messing around with one all the time, I'd just go nuts.

02/05/2015, 02:30 PM	#51
\Clownfish/ Saltwater Beginner $\Clownfish/'s Avatar$ Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Anemone Posts: 629	Okay, so ill wait for ammonia to go up the scale (0) and then wait for Nitrite to go up (0) then test nitrates. __________________ Keep your friends close, and your anemones closer.
$\Clownfish/ is offline$

02/05/2015, 06:37 PM	#54
JammyBirch Aquaria Engineering Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Elkland, PA Posts: 1,182	This is a great thread you're doing a great job documenting the cycle, when you are done and add a CUC this should be a sticky in the "new to hobby" forum. __________________ 25g cube, split 10g sump with refugium, Jebao RW4, reefbreeder value Livestock adds: Osc Clowns, Royal Gramma, Pygmy Cherub Angel, Skunk Cleaner Shrimp, Serpent Brittle Star Current Tank Info: 25 gallon cube

02/05/2015, 10:59 PM	#55
\Clownfish/ Saltwater Beginner $\Clownfish/'s Avatar$ Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Anemone Posts: 629	Thank you JammyBirch Day #4 still So I just re-tested again and something's have changed while others stayed the same. Parameters for today Ammonia - 4.0 ppm (went up a tad from 5.0 ppm) Nitrite - 5.0 ppm (stayed the same since this mornings testing) Nitrate - 2.0 ppm (Has gone up since I tested last) Phosphate - 0.5 ppm (last test was at 0.0 ppm) Salinity - 1.025 Tank today (water seems more clear since I removed the shrimp since this morning.) __________________ Keep your friends close, and your anemones closer.
$\Clownfish/ is offline$

02/06/2015, 02:04 PM	#59
\Clownfish/ Saltwater Beginner $\Clownfish/'s Avatar$ Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Anemone Posts: 629	Day #5 Today's parameters Ammonia - 2.0ppm (went up yay!) Nitrite - 3.0 ppm (seems lighter than yesterday) Nitrate - 4.0 ppm (went from 2.0 to 4.0) Phosphate - 1.0 ppm (went from 0.5 to 1.0) Salinity - 1.026 (lowered it a bit with distilled water) Tank today (water is clearing up again) __________________ Keep your friends close, and your anemones closer.
$\Clownfish/ is offline$

02/06/2015, 11:17 PM	#60
\Clownfish/ Saltwater Beginner $\Clownfish/'s Avatar$ Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Anemone Posts: 629	Decided to share this with you all. My progress so far the app I'm using is Aquarimate. Really neat app where you can keep track of everything __________________ Keep your friends close, and your anemones closer.
$\Clownfish/ is offline$

02/05/2015, 02:46 PM	#53
Azedenkae Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,196	It is good to know all three all the time, to see what may or may not need work on. It is untrue that it has to be a spike-drop-next-one-spike cycle. For example here, it is clear that both ammonia and nitrites are high. What does that mean? Well that indicates that there is quite a number of ammonia-reducing bacteria already. Measuring nitrate might see plenty, and that would for example indicate that there is nitrite-reducing bacteria already. So measuring everything gives a good, clear idea of what is going on at all times. Heck, I even measure phosphates to see the changes in it over time. And that's the other thing, 'changes over time'. If you measure no ammonia and no nitrite, but say, 40ppm nitrate. Did it rise to that point? Or decrease? And how fast did it get there? Sure eventually after subsequent tests you would know, but why bother with that. I like to keep track of everything constantly. And see the changes. For example, here is day 6 of my cycle: http://sosofishy.blogspot.com.au/201...ini-sea-4.html Parameters are all over the place, coming from this on day 5: http://sosofishy.blogspot.com.au/201...ini-sea-3.html Then day 7: http://sosofishy.blogspot.com.au/201...ini-sea-5.html So after adding seafood, everything spiked and then dropped. If I had not test nitrite or nitrate there, I would probably be thoroughly confused.

02/05/2015, 11:13 PM	#56
Azedenkae Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,196	Cool. Well can't really say much yet, but at least you know now that you have both ammonia- and nitrite-reducing bacteria. Continue testing all that, and more can be said each day.

02/06/2015, 04:06 AM	#57
mx29 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 50	Looks awesome and so this is the fishless method. Now how hard is it to cycle a new tank with say one clown fish in there with the live Rock and sand? Does it stress the fish to much with the spikes in ammonia, nitrite and nitrates?

02/07/2015, 12:08 AM	#62
cherubfish pair Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Libby, Montana Posts: 7,061 Blog Entries: 1	One thing a lot of people do right after their initial cycle is to get a clean up crew. I would refrain from doing this until they have something to eat like turf algae and/or fish poo or you will have to feed them something. Fish food is good enough but make sure to turn off the return pump so the food eventually sinks to the bottom instead of going into the back chambers and rotting in their, turning into unwanted nutrients. __________________ pairo chero Thanks for looking at my build thread and subscribe to it if you already haven't yet! Current Tank Info: thirty rimless

02/07/2015, 12:17 AM	#63
cherubfish pair Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Libby, Montana Posts: 7,061 Blog Entries: 1	One thing a lot of people do after going through their initial cycle is to get a clean up crew before there is nuisance algae or fish poo for them to eat. The algae has to be significant or you will have to feed you cuc fish food. Make sure to shut off your return pump until the food sinks to the bottom so that it doesn't overflow into your back chambers. Once there it will won't have a chance to be eaten and will rot turning into unwanted nutrients. __________________ pairo chero Thanks for looking at my build thread and subscribe to it if you already haven't yet! Current Tank Info: thirty rimless

02/07/2015, 11:04 AM	#66
JollyFish Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 31	My tank is 3 1/2 weeks old and cycled fast, put 45lbs of coralline live rock, live sand, and nutrisea water in my 29 biocube. Parameter is so stable with no ammonia or nitrite spike. I did not put any table shrimp to produce ammonia. The amount of bacteria is sufficient to kill the ammonia and nitrite. Corals and my pair of clowns are happy.

02/07/2015, 12:32 PM	#69
\Clownfish/ Saltwater Beginner $\Clownfish/'s Avatar$ Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Anemone Posts: 629	Day #6 Now back on track I noticed I was calculating my nitrates wrong on my app so here are the correct results. Will be posting test results in a few minutes and I finally have life moving on my glass Yay!!! __________________ Keep your friends close, and your anemones closer.
$\Clownfish/ is offline$

02/07/2015, 01:49 PM	#70
\Clownfish/ Saltwater Beginner $\Clownfish/'s Avatar$ Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Anemone Posts: 629	Parameters Today Ammonia - 0.75 ppm (its going up the scale ) Nitrite - 3.0 ppm (still low) Nitrate - 40 ppm (same as yesterday) Phosphate - 1.0 ppm (same as yesterday) Loads of these swimming around and on the glass, best picture I could get(Good or Bad?) Tank Today (clear ) __________________ Keep your friends close, and your anemones closer.
$\Clownfish/ is offline$

02/07/2015, 04:57 PM	#71
cherubfish pair Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Libby, Montana Posts: 7,061 Blog Entries: 1	That's a copepod (not to be confused with amphipods which are much bigger) and it's a really good sign especially at this point in the game. __________________ pairo chero Thanks for looking at my build thread and subscribe to it if you already haven't yet! Current Tank Info: thirty rimless

02/07/2015, 08:44 PM	#74
cherubfish pair Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Libby, Montana Posts: 7,061 Blog Entries: 1	Well it's good that something's alive in your tank and it's good to have them in your tank at all times. They provide a food source for your fish, corals, and they are good scavengers getting into some pretty tight places to eat that crud that the other CUC can't get to. __________________ pairo chero Thanks for looking at my build thread and subscribe to it if you already haven't yet! Current Tank Info: thirty rimless