Kill Method Needed (algae)

[ostrow]

For about 14 months I have battled a losing battle with an accelerating microalgae (sent samples out weeks ago, awaiting positive id). The acceleration has accelerated.

All water parameters have been spotless. Tried all methods. Latest was Algaefix which seemed to be working but turned into epic fail as the algae seems to be thriving on high doses of the stuff.

I am headed to the drastic remove-all-rock/coral and scrub tank method.

Question: when I do it I will have not too much time/space. I need some way to rapidly kill the algae off the rock so I can return (some) of the rock to the tank. I would like to do all the killing, rinse and return in same day.

Muriatic acid? Hydrogen Peroxide? I have some very large rocks (50+lbs) so need guidance here.

I likely would shut off valves, remove rock from sump and scrub sump walls, siphoning.

Then do same to fuge, removing top layer of sand. Scrubbing overflow box.

Then display, doing same. Probably move fish from display down to fuge after fuge is done while doing display.

I would scrub walls and overflow box. No way really to scrub pipes going to basement.

I mention the steps because I DO NOT want the algae just to return at the end!

So: what to use to kill the algae?

Am I leaving out key steps?

Thanks!

Dr. Goodluck Humself.

[slief]

You should post a picture of the algae before taking that kind of evasive action. I'd tend to think it should be easy to identify with a good photo or two including a close up. If you feel you must go that route, I think the acid bath is going to be your best bet but if you don't completely break the entire tank down and start off good and sterile, you are likely to deal with it again. Especially if you don't figure out how to control it. Peroxide will likely also kill it but I've never used either method myself thus my use of "I think" and "probably".

[slief]

I assume this is what you are talking about.

Originally Posted by ostrow

Here are recents.

If it were me, I'd do the following.

First get an accurate Po4 measurement.. For that, I'd use the Hanna HI736 ULR phosphorus tester. The Hanna Phospate tester will likely read 0 where the Phosphus will give you actual results with Po4 levels below .10.

I'd increase my Mg using Kent Tech M and hold it around 2200 for a week or two to see if it has any impact on the algae. Depending on the Po4 results, I would probably take evasive action in reducing Po4. I've used LaCl with great success but I am very careful and meticulous in my LaCl dosing methods.

I'd add a rabbit fish, some Mexican turbo snails and probably a sea hare to get the stuff knocked back and under control. Lastly, an Algae scrubber would probably be a great method of keeping it out of the display once you get it knocked back.

[ostrow]

I have posted many, many pictures.

And get dozens of replies naming every algae.

It is likely a turf and/or gha species. Possibly a type of Cladophoropsis .

Sent samples to Bill and another and waiting for definitive id

[mtrcyclefish]

Save yourself the heartache and find a different way to fight the stuff. I did exactly what you're talking about with muriatic acid. Soaked nearly all of my rocks in acid first and baking soda after then clean r/o. When my tank went back together it looked amazing. For about a month. I even used completely new sand. My problem came right back. I'm fighting a different type of algae, but I can still relate to what you're going through. Imo you would be better off to get all of your corals out and go completely dark for a month or 2. The fish can handle it. I'm trying a method of only running blue light and it seems to be working. For now. My corals are still alive and the fish couldn't care less. The algae is breaking up, but it's slow. It's been under only blue light for 3 weeks now. I'm going to leave it under only blues until either the algae is completely gone + 1 month, or until the coral starts showing signs of dying. I've been slowly reducing the intensity of the blue and I'll keep bringing the blue down until corals start loosing significant color. I can deal with brown corals for a while as long as I'm confident they'll color up again after its all over.

[Sk8r]

If it's algae, it's likely thriving on phosphate, which can take quite a while to finish soaking out from the heart of the rocks. I used some raw rock in setup, which is still necessitating keeping a gfo going even a year later (mark that one down not to do again, never mind the painful expense at the time) --- and my advice is forget testing: if you have algae, you probably have phosphate, and if you can stop it leaking slowly into your water, you won't have algae...eventually. I'd advise this, which I did, and it has worked: assume GFO will saturate after a month (you can't tell, because it doesn't change color.) Run 1 typical jar of Phosban or its equivalent per 50 gallons, or one double load if you have the double size Phosban reactor, and change it every month until your algae stops. It CAN take months. Once it does stop, continue to run the GFO reactor but reduce your GFO change-outs to once every 3 months. After another year of no green, you probably will have gotten all of it and may retire the reactor, but if the green comes back, fire up the reactor again.

[5thChorseman]

I agree with slief suggestions, especially adding an algae scrubber. Here is a link documenting how one guy got rid of his algae problem in a 220 gal tank, using an algae scrubber. It took him 10 months, but in the end he was able to remove all other filtration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wD6kA3xDPaM

[ostrow]

Originally Posted by slief

If it were me, I'd do the following.

First get an accurate Po4 measurement.. For that, I'd use the Hanna HI736 ULR phosphorus tester. The Hanna Phospate tester will likely read 0 where the Phosphus will give you actual results with Po4 levels below .10.

I'd increase my Mg using Kent Tech M and hold it around 2200 for a week or two to see if it has any impact on the algae. Depending on the Po4 results, I would probably take evasive action in reducing Po4. I've used LaCl with great success but I am very careful and meticulous in my LaCl dosing methods.

I'd add a rabbit fish, some Mexican turbo snails and probably a sea hare to get the stuff knocked back and under control. Lastly, an Algae scrubber would probably be a great method of keeping it out of the display once you get it knocked back.

Scott, thanks. Not being argumentative, just informing here.

I have Jose Dieck's Hanna C203. Phosphate 0.00 Triton Lab tested it at 0.00.

I tried KentM for 2 months at 2000. Zero effect.

Sea hares ate the stuff and died within 72hrs. Three of them. Rabbit may be decent idea but tank is now overrun.

When I say I have tried everything, over 18 months I have tried everything. The fact I reverted to snake oil (Algaefix) should point to that - for me.

Not sure, if it were growing in a scrubber, that it would stay localized. No reason for me to believe it would.

I need a sure fire kill method after removing all rock. The stuff must have hitched in. Going forward, dips and toothbrush ....

For now I need to kill it all.

[ostrow]

Originally Posted by mtrcyclefish

Save yourself the heartache and find a different way to fight the stuff. I did exactly what you're talking about with muriatic acid. Soaked nearly all of my rocks in acid first and baking soda after then clean r/o. When my tank went back together it looked amazing. For about a month. I even used completely new sand. My problem came right back. I'm fighting a different type of algae, but I can still relate to what you're going through. Imo you would be better off to get all of your corals out and go completely dark for a month or 2. The fish can handle it. I'm trying a method of only running blue light and it seems to be working. For now. My corals are still alive and the fish couldn't care less. The algae is breaking up, but it's slow. It's been under only blue light for 3 weeks now. I'm going to leave it under only blues until either the algae is completely gone + 1 month, or until the coral starts showing signs of dying. I've been slowly reducing the intensity of the blue and I'll keep bringing the blue down until corals start loosing significant color. I can deal with brown corals for a while as long as I'm confident they'll color up again after its all over.

Blue via what method? Why not just blackout? I did about 8 days dark, algae grew wild under no light.

[ostrow]

Originally Posted by Sk8r

If it's algae, it's likely thriving on phosphate, which can take quite a while to finish soaking out from the heart of the rocks. I used some raw rock in setup, which is still necessitating keeping a gfo going even a year later (mark that one down not to do again, never mind the painful expense at the time) --- and my advice is forget testing: if you have algae, you probably have phosphate, and if you can stop it leaking slowly into your water, you won't have algae...eventually. I'd advise this, which I did, and it has worked: assume GFO will saturate after a month (you can't tell, because it doesn't change color.) Run 1 typical jar of Phosban or its equivalent per 50 gallons, or one double load if you have the double size Phosban reactor, and change it every month until your algae stops. It CAN take months. Once it does stop, continue to run the GFO reactor but reduce your GFO change-outs to once every 3 months. After another year of no green, you probably will have gotten all of it and may retire the reactor, but if the green comes back, fire up the reactor again.

Nope. I have run GFO 24/7 from day one of this tank (Feb 2010). New GFO every 6 weeks.

Folks, this thread asks not how to fight this algae but how rapidly to exterminate from rock removed from the tank. Please, if you can advise on the process I enquired about...

[SammyL]

Not sure if it would help you but when I want to start fresh I use bleach then aerate the heck out of it.

I am not sure if this will fit within your time table but it does not take long.

[Sk8r]

You've got one heckuvan algae there, then. I think I'd consider breaking the tank down in favor of new rock, new sand. It might be less spendy and give you much more enjoyment than round after round with this stuff.

[ostrow]

You mean ditch the rock and get new?

Sad. But that would be spendy!! Hoped could "nuke" it. New sand not a problem but I got 200lbs of rock!!

[Sk8r]

Ow, indeed that's a lot to replace. However, if you could get some reliable low-phosphate preconditioned rock from somebody's tank breakdown, and add just 10 lbs of really quality live rock and of course a new aragonite sandbed, about 8 weeks of cycle would see you restarting your tank without a lot of grief.

I really sympathize. One of my recent tanks was a 52 gallon that had some live rock that had caulerpa rooted in it---easy to deal with if you have a big tank that can house a onespot rabbit or certain tangs, but if you put one of those into a 52 wedge, the rabbit or tang is likely to kill a bunch of fish on his way to keeping the caulerpa under control. It was just a no-win. I started completely over, after nearly five years of trying to beat that toxic weed, and while the new tank has given me the usual round of new-tank problems, at least they're ones that don't defy solution. You surely have a huge investment in that size tank---I only wish!---and just taking everything you now know and giving yourself a clean start might be a good solution. If you're part of a reef club, maybe some members could give you a little spare rock to get your biodiversity going once you've got it going.

But honestly, if anybody can suggest anything that can beat this really persistent stuff for good and all, go for it. I just really sympathize with trying one fix after another for a problem that keeps coming back like the hydra.

[ostrow]

Originally Posted by Sk8r

Ow, indeed that's a lot to replace. However, if you could get some reliable low-phosphate preconditioned rock from somebody's tank breakdown, and add just 10 lbs of really quality live rock and of course a new aragonite sandbed, about 8 weeks of cycle would see you restarting your tank without a lot of grief.

I really sympathize. One of my recent tanks was a 52 gallon that had some live rock that had caulerpa rooted in it---easy to deal with if you have a big tank that can house a onespot rabbit or certain tangs, but if you put one of those into a 52 wedge, the rabbit or tang is likely to kill a bunch of fish on his way to keeping the caulerpa under control. It was just a no-win. I started completely over, after nearly five years of trying to beat that toxic weed, and while the new tank has given me the usual round of new-tank problems, at least they're ones that don't defy solution. You surely have a huge investment in that size tank---I only wish!---and just taking everything you now know and giving yourself a clean start might be a good solution. If you're part of a reef club, maybe some members could give you a little spare rock to get your biodiversity going once you've got it going.

But honestly, if anybody can suggest anything that can beat this really persistent stuff for good and all, go for it. I just really sympathize with trying one fix after another for a problem that keeps coming back like the hydra.

Yeah.

Been in the hobby and here since '03 or so. Fire in '09 and new setup in '10. I have suspicions on the source, but water under the bridge. Finding that "reliable rock" and "quality live rock" hard. This stuff came from a guy in Indy via a contact at Premium after my fire. Was great stuff and not the source. Who knows.

I may just kill the lights and wait for a good breakdown, then offer my rock to keep cost reasonable.

Worst would be removing and using muriatic on this rock only to have the pest return.

[adam87]

Originally Posted by ostrow

Blue via what method? Why not just blackout? I did about 8 days dark, algae grew wild under no light.

I think he's running LEDS on his tank. He's only running blues LEDS not the whites.

I have the same evil turf in my 180. I have been removing it by hand weekly, running GFO, and started using Algaefix. Later on I will dip some of the really bad rocks in Hydrogen Peroxide. As of now the Algaefix killed about half of it and I have been putting it in the tank for a month.

[Fish_wiz2]

Hey Ostrow, Im out the hobby now but I dealt with algae that either is exactly or very similar to what I saw in your pics, I never got an ID on mine so I cant say positively if its the same ill just throw my 2 cents.

It was in my BC29, I dealt with it a few months before I shut it completely down. I went through muratic acid and bleach to clean my rocks, trashed my sand and went BB, and bleached my tank/equipment. Corals and fish were separated in a different tank. Looked good for about a month, came right back from an SPS frag of mine. I was burnt after that.

If youre willing to loose all your corals, acid and bleach should do the trick, otherwise you'd have to inspect each piece with more than a fine tooth comb which im not sure would be worth it. I do hope you find a solution to salvage everything but this algae is no joke as youve already experienced.

Good luck, Wiz.

[azjohnny]

The fact I reverted to snake oil (Algaefix) should point to that

I wouldn't call Algae Fix snake oil, I had a GHA problem, was running BRS HC GFO in a XL Next Reef reactor that I changed out 1x a week. That didn't work, tried Kent Tech M mag supplement raising mag levels to 1700. That didn't work as a last result tried Algae Fix and after a week all the GHA was gone and never came back.

Your problem could also be food related

[ostrow]

I am a healthy eater!

Since the plague I feed spectrum pellet and organic raw dried nori only. Once a month Rod's plankton

[mtrcyclefish]

I think he's running LEDS on his tank. He's only running blues LEDS not the whites.

Exactly!

[ostrow]

Originally Posted by Fish_wiz2

Hey Ostrow, Im out the hobby now but I dealt with algae that either is exactly or very similar to what I saw in your pics, I never got an ID on mine so I cant say positively if its the same ill just throw my 2 cents.

It was in my BC29, I dealt with it a few months before I shut it completely down. I went through muratic acid and bleach to clean my rocks, trashed my sand and went BB, and bleached my tank/equipment. Corals and fish were separated in a different tank. Looked good for about a month, came right back from an SPS frag of mine. I was burnt after that.

If youre willing to loose all your corals, acid and bleach should do the trick, otherwise you'd have to inspect each piece with more than a fine tooth comb which im not sure would be worth it. I do hope you find a solution to salvage everything but this algae is no joke as youve already experienced.

Good luck, Wiz.

My plan, Wiz, was remove and ditch coral, remove and replace sand, scrub walls of tank but not acid tank.

Want to acid or something the rock.

Yeah, remember it returned on you. I hope a rabbitfish after removing rock/coral would do the trick.

[ostrow]

But can I acid the rock, rinse and return? Don't think can do that with bleach....

Although Scott there with the bleach!!

Maybe I should pour a bottle of Clorox in the tank!?!

[ChrisKirkland]

Originally Posted by ostrow

Nope. I have run GFO 24/7 from day one of this tank (Feb 2010). New GFO every 6 weeks.

Folks, this thread asks not how to fight this algae but how rapidly to exterminate from rock removed from the tank. Please, if you can advise on the process I enquired about...

I am curious how you know for certain that PO4 isnt the issue. Just because you run GFO it doesnt mean that PO4 is not in your tank. algae (any for that matter) take up PO4 and nitrate to grow, so if the PO4 is taken up in the algae then the test kit cant test for it or GFO cannot remove it.

When I had PO4 issues in my 300 I would go through half a reactor (TLF 550) of GFO in a week and the effluent would test the same as the tank. I would change it and it was back to 0. I have seen some run GFO for 4 weeks some for 8 weeks, it just really depends on how much PO4 is introduced in to the tank.

This is my .02 but I would find the source of the nutrient (NO3 or PO4 or both) before just starting over, or it may just reappear after you start over.

[ostrow]

Originally Posted by ChrisKirkland

I am curious how you know for certain that PO4 isnt the issue.

See above on the tests I have done and have had done. Combined with the GFO...

[Elliott]

Originally Posted by ostrow

For about 14 months I have battled a losing battle with an accelerating microalgae (sent samples out weeks ago, awaiting positive id). The acceleration has accelerated.

All water parameters have been spotless. Tried all methods. Latest was Algaefix which seemed to be working but turned into epic fail as the algae seems to be thriving on high doses of the stuff.

I am headed to the drastic remove-all-rock/coral and scrub tank method.

Question: when I do it I will have not too much time/space. I need some way to rapidly kill the algae off the rock so I can return (some) of the rock to the tank. I would like to do all the killing, rinse and return in same day.

Muriatic acid? Hydrogen Peroxide? I have some very large rocks (50+lbs) so need guidance here.

I likely would shut off valves, remove rock from sump and scrub sump walls, siphoning.

Then do same to fuge, removing top layer of sand. Scrubbing overflow box.

Then display, doing same. Probably move fish from display down to fuge after fuge is done while doing display.

I would scrub walls and overflow box. No way really to scrub pipes going to basement.

I mention the steps because I DO NOT want the algae just to return at the end!

So: what to use to kill the algae?

Am I leaving out key steps?

Thanks!

Dr. Goodluck Humself.

The picture posted above appears to be Bryopsis. There are many different types, some more stubborn than others, I happen to have one that is very similar in appearance as yours. I too tried many different treatments. IMO you can't eliminate but it can be kept in check.

In the end this is what worked for me:

1. Remove rock and soak in muriatic acid bath (brute trash can)

2. Allow rock to dry out in sun for a week (very little can survive drying)

3. Place rock in trash can again and run a Lanthanum Chloride drip into a filter sock to remove phosphate from rock (remember all the dead critters inside the rock produce lots of phosphate.) Don't skip this step or you will be right back where you started with Bryopsis, fed by phosphate leaching from the rock.

4. Remove any Bryopsis that you can see in the display system

5. Replace rock by 20% every few days (I'm conservative)

6. Run an algae turf scrubber: when I get lazy and don't clean mine regularly I notice Bryopsis growing again in the DT, so it works.

7. Drip Magnesion P (can buy in 5 gallon bucket powder) from a reservoir, slow drip continuously with a BRS doser, I found this works better then targeting a specific Mg value, many believe there is something in Magnesion P (same as Tech M, but cheaper in powder form) that kills Bryopsis.

8. Attend to any new growth of Bryopsis immediately by removal (careful to dip in fresh water with each tear of algae to avoid seeding the water column) and then cover the area from light with aquamend cement.