A lot for my first post.....

[MD500_Pilot]

Hello everyone. I am a former reefer having had a 500-gallon reef tank for many years ago before we had more kids and moved homes which required me to get rid of my tank. Now that we are down to only four kids in the house it looks like I am going to try and setup a 210-gallon tank, but I have a very unique situation and wanted to get input from those of you much more adept at these type of things. I apologize in advance if this post is too long, but I am hoping that the collective knowledge here can keep me from making a big mistake.

So to start, I am looking at a 210-gallon tank with a bean animal style overflow. The main issue for me is where my sump will be placed will be about 30' feet from the tank. This is 30' horizontal feet, not verticle feet. This means that I will need to run four or five PVC pipes from my tank to the sump. Three for the bean animal, one for the return and one for the automated water change system I plan on building and programming with my youngest son.

Here is a very crude drawing of how the tank will be laid out:



I have done the measurements and I have a verticle drop of about 20" overall. I was able to pull a full siphon (albeit using a hose) over that distance with no issues.

So my main question is pretty simple. Can you reliably build a tank/sump in a configuration when the sump is not really below the tank, but in another room of the house entirely and with only a 20" difference between the bottom of the overflow and the top of the sump?

I was watching a bunch of videos (and really trying to understand the Hazen–Williams equation, and this one did a great job of explaining the Bean Animal setup, but at the 5:15 mark, they start talking about the size of the piping saying that for 1500 GPH or less, use nothing bigger than a 1" pipe, but in looking at some flow charts for 1" PVC, that seems like it might be a bit small. This chart says that the max flow out of a 1" PVC pipe via gravity is only 600 GPH and I only need a 9" drop to get maximum flow:



However, this chart from FlexPVC.com seems to show that 1" via gravity will support 960 GPH as opposed to 600 GPH:




This link seems to support the 600GPH limit on 1" PVC as well.


Given that I will have a 210-gallon tank, I would need to target closer to 1250-1750 GPH (with 1500 being a good spot based on the pump I want to get) which means that I need to move to 1.25", but going back to the video, they seem to be saying that if you go too big on the siphon line you won't be able to get a full siphon. I guess I really only want to run this piping once and size it correctly all the way around.

For my return, I am looking at the Iwaki MD-100RLT. I calculated my head pressure to be about 21' based on 1' per vertical foot, 1' per 10' of horizontal piping and 1' per 90 connectors as suggested here. With the 100RLT and 21' of head I can get 1500 GPM with a 1" return line:



Does this pump seem reasonable for what I am looking to do?

I did try to run the head calculator here on reefcentral, but for some reason it would not work and gave me 8' of head pressure no matter what I put into the fields.

Lastly, I am concerned about my long horizontal run which in my case will be about 23'. According to this website, it says to avoid horizontal runs longer the 24" or I will have problems pulling a siphon.


So I guess my overall questions are:

Is it plausable to have my sump located in a different room than our tank with only a 20" verticle drop? I would think it would be ok, since if my sump were directly below my tank with a 20" drop it would work fine I would think.

Next, I am really confused as to the size of my piping. Based on some sites, they say 1" is enough for uto 1500 GPH, other sites say 600 GPH for 1" and yet others say 1,000GPH for 1". Because this piping has to go underground, I really only want to do it once and I would hate to put in 1" and not beable to pull a full siphon or worse not be able to get the tank turnover that I realy need.


I really appreciate any help or advice, as I said I would really like to get this right the first time around and be able to enjoy it for many years to come.

[Sk8r]

Well, I can't help you too much, except to say I run a 102 gal with an inbuilt bottom-draining overflow box with a 5' drop and 10' lateral run through spa hose and exactly that pump, and it's an indestructible pump. Stopped once. I took it apart as far as the impeller, plucked a colonista snail out of the little hole, and it's run impeccably for the 8 years since. Mine is Japanese motor--you supply the plug---comes with a cord ending in bare wire.

The pump uses a thick-walled see-through hose and follows the same path as the downflow. The downflow starts with good hose, then, leaving the room with the tank, devolves to spa hose, which I think is over an inch diameter, and feels like paper, bucks like crazy under the flow...so I have supported it with slings along the basement wall to the tank, and stopped that. I've got everything in that line--a 1" hose to a ribbed poly hose I got from some watery machine I've forgotten (but it had splendid end fittings that socket really well) and through the floor to the spa hose, but the thing's held together for thirteen years now with no problems.

All of which is to say, it's pretty forgiving with a drop between floors. But a siphon is a siphon. Your hard pipe should work fine, materials-wise. What does give me pause is that dip and then rise with 2 right-angle turns, where a clog of any sort could cause you trouble and where it's losing some of its momentum to friction, slight as that might be, and a rise. No way to run that lateral line level to the sump? And exactly how is your pump getting water back to your tank?

I'm not a great plumbing expert, but I'm good at patching drywall and floor. You can easily run 2 holes ( mine are in the floor, but could be just above the baseboard in the drywall) for pipe/hose and then fix it if you move---wall repaint, but only a few hours' work. Don't look on walls as a barrier if you need to get from a to b.

As you can tell, no plumbing expert here, but I've at least done the room-to-room thing. And maybe we'll attract in somebody who can give better answers.

And btw, welcome to the forum.

[MD500_Pilot]

No One?

[Sk8r]

I'm going to refer your post to a place where some senior members hang out, and see if I can stir you up some help.

[pinnatus]

If there was a post here, I missed it...

[pinnatus]

Ok now I see the post.

According to your drawing, there is not a siphon, just an overflow box the feeds a pipe that goes to your other tank. If so, you can make it whatever size you want, bigger is better. The flow will go by gravity and won’t be a problem providing it is big enough. Id probably run 1 1/2” pipe. Your pump calcs seem reasonable, but i’d still go with 1 1/2” pipe there too. 21ft of head is around 9 psi which isn’t much. Pipe size being larger helps here.

[VoltzNSalt]

Agreed with the pipe sizing (may want to consider putting in gate valves - enables you to 'dial it in')...I have a 210 and it is 25" tall...How tall is your stand? Mine is 43"...

I have the same Iwaki pump that has been feeding my auto water changer and ATO reservoir with ~18' vertical and 15' horizontal run without missing a beat for 5 years...excellent pump (make sure you get the Japanese motor version)...it should provide all the flow you need...

I also have a 'secret panel' in my flooring that allows me access to the plumbing...my sump is under my tank but my 'water room' (fresh and salt) is in the basement...'underground' plumbing is a little scary...

[MD500_Pilot]

Originally Posted by pinnatus

Ok now I see the post.

According to your drawing, there is not a siphon, just an overflow box the feeds a pipe that goes to your other tank. If so, you can make it whatever size you want, bigger is better. The flow will go by gravity and won’t be a problem providing it is big enough. Id probably run 1 1/2” pipe. Your pump calcs seem reasonable, but i’d still go with 1 1/2” pipe there too. 21ft of head is around 9 psi which isn’t much. Pipe size being larger helps here.

Hi Pinnatus -

Actually I think there is a siphon, maybe my drawing is not showing it clearly. This is a bean-animal setup which is (supposed to be) a full siphon. That was one of my main concerns was if I could maintain a full siphon that distance.

[MD500_Pilot]

Thank you all so much for jumping in and helping me with this. As I said, I really only want to set this up one time and I would like it to be right the first time.

So I think there may have been some confusion based on @pinnatus post. My overflow will be a coast-to-cost style overflow in a bean-animal configuration which is a full siphon setup. I guess my drawing did not show that clear enough.

Next, I do not have the ability to go down into another room. I live in Phoenix and we have no basement. My "sump" room is a separate room and I have to go out the back of my house, down the wall, underground, across about 23' of ground and back up into the other room and into the sump. There is a height difference of 20" between where my overflow is located and the top of my sump. Using a 5/8" hose I was able to get a full siphon from bucket-to-bucket at those levels, but not with all the twists and turns in the process.
@Sk8r - There is no way for me to run the line level with the sump. The line physically is getting buried. My drawing only shows a single line but I will actually have 5 lines between my tank and the sump:

Lines 1 -3 Bean Animal lines
4 - Pump Return line
5 - Automatic Water Change line

As far as line obstructions, I am planning on unions at both ends and worse case, a snake to deal with anything in between.
@VoltzNSalt - My current stand is only 30" and I was using that based on the tank height. We are planning on building a new stand and I guess I can raise it up higher and that would give me more of a drop. I do plan on gate valves on all of the lines just really didn't have room for them in the drawing!

43" seems pretty high for a stand, I bet that is an impressive tank setup.


So back to the pipe size, it looks like the consensus is 1 1/2" line for everything, but how about on the pump return line? Since the outlet of the pump is only 1", should I stick with a 1" line for the return? I just don't know enough about hydrodynamics to know if going from a 1" outlet on the pump to a 1 1/2" pipe does anything for me.

[VoltzNSalt]

Originally Posted by MD500_Pilot

As I said, I really only want to set this up one time and I would like it to be right the first time.

Don't we all

As far as line obstructions, I am planning on unions at both ends and worse case, a snake to deal with anything in between.

43" seems pretty high for a stand, I bet that is an impressive tank setup.

I'm 6'4" tall and my SO is 5'11"...stools for the kids are <$20 bucks a piece and will only be needed for a few years...


So back to the pipe size, it looks like the consensus is 1 1/2" line for everything, but how about on the pump return line? Since the outlet of the pump is only 1", should I stick with a 1" line for the return? I just don't know enough about hydrodynamics to know if going from a 1" outlet on the pump to a 1 1/2" pipe does anything for me.

That pump will push all the water you need with 1 inch...you will have to adjust your 'nozzles' so that they are deep enough and pointed in the right direction that they don't spray water everywhere yet shallow enough that they don't siphon enough water to overflow your sump if the pump/electricity goes out...

[tidewater]

Well you have done some homework! I have ran bean animal on all my tanks and love it. PVC under siphon can move tons of water compared to gravity drain. Given the price of pvc is so cheap I would try it with a few buckets. I have personally never tried one at those distances but it shouldn’t be an issue. As far as the pump goes horizontal piping does not effect the head loss nearly as bad as vertical. Increasing the pipe size may help with some but not sure if it will be noticeable. Checking back at you numbers each 90° elbow is equivalent to 5’ of piping. At least it always has in my world. Hope some of this helps.

[pinnatus]

That setup is not really a syphon by which i mean that the tubing/piping goes up and over and back down again. So if you lose a syphon, you would normally have to draw the liquid up and over to re establish flow. To me, it is just a gravity drain. So I am not worried about it working at any size pipe you choose.

That being said, I’d run all pipes 1 1/2”. It isn’t that much more cost, but it is more likely to handle any flow you need. Attach the 1” to the pump and neck the size up to 1 1/2” right away. You’ll be glad you used the bigger pipe in the long run.

Put lots of unions in the pipe. Or use ball valves as unions.

[tidewater]

Originally Posted by pinnatus

That setup is not really a syphon by which i mean that the tubing/piping goes up and over and back down again. So if you lose a syphon, you would normally have to draw the liquid up and over to re establish flow. To me, it is just a gravity drain. So I am not worried about it working at any size pipe you choose.

That being said, I’d run all pipes 1 1/2”. It isn’t that much more cost, but it is more likely to handle any flow you need. Attach the 1” to the pump and neck the size up to 1 1/2” right away. You’ll be glad you used the bigger pipe in the long run.

Put lots of unions in the pipe. Or use ball valves as unions.

siphonor sy·phon[ sahy-fuh n ]SHOW IPA
SEE SYNONYMS FOR siphon ON THESAURUS.COM
noun
a tube or conduit bent into legs of unequal length, for use in drawing a liquid from one container into another on a lower level by placing the shorter leg into the container above and the longer leg into the one below, the liquid being forced up the shorter leg and into the longer one by the pressure of the atmosphere.

Gravity drain system. A piping system in which flow is accomplished solely by the difference between the height of the inlet end and the outlet end.


Just in case you needed to know the difference between siphon and gravity

[pinnatus]

Thanks. I thought that is what I said.

[MD500_Pilot]

Originally Posted by pinnatus

That setup is not really a syphon by which i mean that the tubing/piping goes up and over and back down again. So if you lose a syphon, you would normally have to draw the liquid up and over to re establish flow. To me, it is just a gravity drain. So I am not worried about it working at any size pipe you choose.

That being said, I’d run all pipes 1 1/2”. It isn’t that much more cost, but it is more likely to handle any flow you need. Attach the 1” to the pump and neck the size up to 1 1/2” right away. You’ll be glad you used the bigger pipe in the long run.

Put lots of unions in the pipe. Or use ball valves as unions.

Ken -

Thanks. I guess I am not really understanding the difference between a "gravity flow" and a siphon. Before coming up with this idea and thinking it was even possible, I did a bunch of research on a siphon and my (albeit basic) understanding is that regardless of the verticle components in the line, you can have a full siphon so long as the line itself never rises above the level of the water you are trying to siphon.



Is this not correct? The diagram they use to explain scientifically why a siphon works was what ultimately led me to believe that it would work gong un and back down the edge of the sump.

And it is also my understanding that the bean-animal setup only works with a full siphon, which is why I really want to make sure I am understanding this all correctly, so please forgive my repeated questions about it :-)

It will be a ton of work getting those five lines out the back of our hours (brick wall), into the ground, over to the room and back into the room so I want to really make sure I have this right before finding out it won't work!

I have no problem going with the 1 1/2" pipe!

[MD500_Pilot]

@tidewater - I tried using the head pressure guide here but it appears to be broken so I used the one HERE as a guide. That is how I can up with 21'.

[MD500_Pilot]

Originally Posted by MD500_Pilot

@tidewater - I tried using the head pressure guide here but it appears to be broken so I used the one HERE as a guide. That is how I can up with 21'.

[MD500_Pilot]

Well I am not sure why my URL is getting munged, but here is the link:

If you go to:

******* dot com /rba86n9 you will see how I got the head pressure.


Also, totally different question, but I cannot seem to edit my posts, is this not available on this forum?

Thanks

[MD500_Pilot]

Originally Posted by MD500_Pilot

Well I am not sure why my URL is getting munged, but here is the link:

If you go to:

******* dot com /rba86n9 you will see how I got the head pressure.


Also, totally different question, but I cannot seem to edit my posts, is this not available on this forum?

Thanks

Well, that didn't work either:

if it's filtered, there's a reason. Do not evade our filters.

Maybe this will work...

[Rybren]

The problem that I see with the setup is the horizontal run combined with the Bean. The Bean relies on air being purged from the siphon line. My understanding is that with long horizontal runs, the air can't purge properly and so a full siphon can't be generated.

I'm getting old and my memory isn't what it once was, so I may be confused. Plus, I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night

[Rybren]

There is a time limit on editing posts. Something like 30 minutes after posting. Look for the edit button in the bottom right corner of the post next to the quote button.

[pinnatus]

I think it will work just fine with 1 1/2” pipe.

By the way, I am a chemical engineer and do this stuff for a living.

[Rybren]

Hiya Ken

I was just trying to recall what Bean had said about horizontal runs

[pinnatus]

Hey Jerry. I don’t know what Bean said, but it should work just fine.

[tidewater]

Your post is in violation of the terms and conditions of use of this web site and has been edited. Further violations will result in revocation of your posting privileges.