Algae Scrubber Basics

[karimwassef]

Originally Posted by Floyd R Turbo

That sounds so insane, I don't even know how to answer it!! Pics or it didn't happen....I mean....pics or I can't understand it at all lol

ok. this is just a quick sketch, but it should be explanatory for now. I'll make it clearer later.

[aiber]

Originally Posted by Floyd R Turbo

I didn't realize until I posted that - same post as above, different lamp. But, the issue is still the same, the intensity is still too high. Can you remove any of the lenses from that lamp?

Not sure. I could try. What would removing the lenses do? How would I go about doing that?

Again, I don't get it because I followed everything as documented. 12w on each side.

What if I get bulbs that are 6w? Would that work?


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[karimwassef]

Here's a better (more accurate) representation.



so,, if I add a sheet in the back and a source of bubbles at the bottom, can the surge function as a scrubber?

[Floyd R Turbo]

Originally Posted by aiber

Not sure. I could try. What would removing the lenses do? How would I go about doing that?

Again, I don't get it because I followed everything as documented. 12w on each side.

What if I get bulbs that are 6w? Would that work?

You are correct in saying that you followed the recommendations, but the issue is that it's hard to say how a specific fixture is going to perform in a specific system. Most of the time, there's not too many issues. For some reason, you are having many.

regarding removing the lenses, see this from my 5/24 post

4) remove the lenses from the lamp (it goes without saying that this option will generally void any warranty). Most of these PAR type lamps have a bezel that is screwed on, when you remove the screws the lenses can be removed. This allows the LED light to spread out, and the intensity is less focused. The flipside of that is that now you have essentially widened the "cone" of intensity of the light right in front of the lamp, and this can cause the light to spread out a lot more. So your position you have them in now might actually end up being a bit too far away after removing the lenses, but moving the lamp closer means exposing the circuit board to salt spray (actually, removing the lenses does that too). You can cut a thin sheet of plastic (1/16" or 1/32" lexan from home depot works) into a circle and glue that to the outside of the bezel after you remove the lenses and out it back on, the bezel will block some of the now non-focused light, but you can move the lamp closer. Or you could fashion a clear cover to replace the bezel.

Taking the lenses off allows the light to spread, eliminating the hotspot you are getting. Alternatively, you might move the fixtures even further away. Or diffuse. I don't think you want a lower wattage fixture, that would cover less area and you could have a different problem. The one you got looks decent, right spectrum, it's just a bit too much right now

If you look closely at the pic in the amazon link you posted, you can see there is what looks like a retaining ring around the face of the fixture. I haven't seen one like this in person but it appears that you could pop this off and the shield would come off, and probably the lenses too. My guess is that they are not glued in, they will probably just fall off. So be careful, because you don't want to damage the dome of the LED by bumping into them.

Once you get the screen to fill in, and as long as you don't clean it too vigorously, you might be able to put the fixture back like you have it now (lenses in, proximity, etc). It's just that right now it's too much intensity, so nothing can grow. Once you get growth, it can sustain. But right now, it can't get started.

Originally Posted by karimwassef

so,, if I add a sheet in the back and a source of bubbles at the bottom, can the surge function as a scrubber?

I don't see why not, how fast will it fill up?

[karimwassef]

I haven't run the math but I'd say 10-15mins to fill but once full, it should stay full. The vacuum is only offsetting the bubbles injected.

[aiber]

You are correct, sir! Thank you so much. The ring came off very easily with a flat head screwdriver. Hopefully, this will promote some more growth. Pictures are below in case anyone else could benefit from this.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Nice! If you're handy, what you could do now is cut a circle in some thin lexan (anything from Lowes/Home Depot should work) and put that back in it's place.

If if you can't get a nice clean circle, if you look close on the fins there are 4 points where it is prepped for a screw, so you could rough cut something and drill a few holes to line up with those points and screw it in, but it would probably be better to have the circle thing...though there is no seal in there anyways, so moisture could easily get to the PCB no matter what.

You could also just drill out the lenses but then you have no lenses for the future if you need it

[karimwassef]

Originally Posted by karimwassef

Here's a better (more accurate) representation.



so,, if I add a sheet in the back and a source of bubbles at the bottom, can the surge function as a scrubber?

Let me add one more variable... this scrubber is effectively open to the DT, including predation. This is intentional since I recycle all my algae today through my herbivores (no export).

Questions:

1. Is it large enough to compete with the solar radiation on the DT? The DT open surface is 10' x 8' = 80 sqft horizontal. The scrubber is 8' x 2' = 16 sqft vertical. I can't add more light but I'm hoping the extra flow due to the bubbles flowing up and water flowing down will result in an effective scrubbing action.

2. I am planning on using the surge functionality and bubble curtain to control fish access. So, purging the scrubber would remove predators but would it hurt the algae mass? Basically, the algae "carpet" would be in a humid enclosed box with the sun beating down on it (maybe I do this at night).

3. When it's "feeding time", the bubbles stop and the tank is fully flooded creating safe passage. Since the tank is inverted, no detritus can accumulate. When feeding time is over, the tank is purged slowly allowing the fish to exit. Then bubbles restart to create the "bubble gate", and the chamber is slowly flooded again.

4. During surges, the bubbles are off but the tank fills up in 10minutes and then purges in 5 seconds. So the algae carpet may be exposed for up to 10minutes at a time. I can probably maintain a waterfall flow on the algae carpet (if needed or beneficial).

5. I don't plan on removing the screens (ever). So the tank will not be "serviceable". This concerns me. I don't think I'll need a scraper on the glass since the water purging should eliminate coralline & bacterial mass cant grow when it's exposed to air (in theory?). Making an airtight resealable tank 8ft up in the air is difficult. Any ideas on risk or better design options to this scrubber?

By the way, this can be done on a small scale too. I just happen to start big.

[BigBlueTang]

I have a quick question for the experts, as I'm not too sure why this is happening. Set my ATS up just under a week ago, and I'm already seeing growth. However, I'm only seeing growth on the bottom half of the screen. Anyone have any ideas?
[IMG][/IMG]
Thanks! I'm hoping this will eradicate the little tufts of GHA I have left..

[Floyd R Turbo]

I had to tap the link in the email for that pic (doesn't show in tapatalk) and got a bunch of spammy pop ups about a virus, etc...seems like Photobucket has been hacked

Anyways that looks like photosaturation also. Pics of scrubber with lights on, off, etc? Need more info

[SantaMonica]

Karim's idea will work basically. It might growth thicker dark brown turf, which can survive longer time out of the water.

[karimwassef]

Thanks SM.
I'm thinking of adapting it for waterfall and upflow by having new water pumped in from above the sheet against the wall. Basically, it's an acrylic box that's exposed to sunlight with a sheet of algae. It can be flooded or dry or intermittently both. It can have bubbles or not.

Biggest worries (in order) are

1. Bacterial growth winning over algae.
2. Acrylic box misting over to block sunlight.
3. Acrylic box developing algae on inside to block sunlight.
4. Growing inedible macro.
5. Insufficient growth due to inadequate flow or bubbles.

By the way, one inspiration for this was my 12' protein skimmer where 2' in the middle got halide light, upflow of bubbles and downflow of water = algae chunk. Always figured my fish would go nuts over that stuff if they could get in there.

[Horace]

Hey folks, Sorry I cant read 400 pages before asking

I am considering building a ATS, but was curious about changing up the design some.

How would it work to use a design like Floyd's, but instead of dripping from the top, filling the unit from the bottom and letting the water overflow out the ends (not the sides where the light is passing through). This would make this more of an upflow setup (but not using air like Santa Montica's design). It seems to me you would get more uniform water flow....and it would keep the algae suspended for better light penetration to the lower layers of algae as opposed to it just laying flat.

[karimwassef]

Horace. You need air somewhere. How are you getting the air to water interface against the algae?

[Horace]

Originally Posted by karimwassef

Horace. You need air somewhere. How are you getting the air to water interface against the algae?

Bah, I knew I was missing something! Didn't know about the algae growing faster with the added air interface (more co2). Certainly the algae would grow, but not nearly as well. Bummer!



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[Horace]

So assuming for a moment I continued with my current plan, and either fed air similar to the way Santa Montica does, or used a skimmer pump, do you think the bubbles (especially with a skimmer pump) would interfere with light penetration???

[Horace]

Another design thought I have been considering is doing similar to what a fellow reefer here in Atlanta has done. He has a similar design to Floyd, but instead of dripping water from the center, he has two spray bars that spray the algae with several small streams of water instead (one on each side of the canvas). The advantage of this is it allows the center algae strip to be removed w/out disconnecting any water and it makes maintenance a breeze.

Where I am thinking of changing that up a bit more is to build laminar waterfall streams from both sides, rather than spray bars. I don't don't know if that will work any better/worse, but it sure would look cool :P. I think it may also limit splashing a bit.

For reference, this is a laminar waterfall (though mine would have to be substantially lower flow)

[karimwassef]

I tried the laminar stream. Couldn't get it right. Post lots of pics if you try.

Bubbles disperse light but if an updraft ATS works in general, it should work for you too.

If I were to try a waterfall again, I'd create a lip and have water fill a small space behind it and then overflow the lip. No slots or holes or pipes.

[Horace]

Originally Posted by karimwassef

I tried the laminar stream. Couldn't get it right. Post lots of pics if you try.

Bubbles disperse light but if an updraft ATS works in general, it should work for you too.

If I were to try a waterfall again, I'd create a lip and have water fill a small space behind it and then overflow the lip. No slots or holes or pipes.

Yeah one way would be to have it flow down a V shaped glass panels, rather than shooting out via pressure by cutting a long narrow slit. I agree it will be challenging to get a perfect "slit" waterfall. If you look at how complex the inside of those Laminar jets are (hundreds of small straws, scrubber material, etc), that would be hard to do in this environment. The material would get clogged with garbage and need cleaning frequently etc. It would be far less maint to have a means to get a nice even waterflow over a lip like you mentioned.

However, the question is, is it really worth it? My buddy's spray bar(s) design works pretty damn well too, and is a very very simple/cheap design to build.

[karimwassef]

perfection is the enemy of the good.

[SantaMonica]

2. Acrylic box misting over to block sunlight.
3. Acrylic box developing algae on inside to block sunlight.

If you use strings which can rub the acrylic, they will help wipe growth off of it.

[aiber]

Originally Posted by Floyd R Turbo

Nice! If you're handy, what you could do now is cut a circle in some thin lexan (anything from Lowes/Home Depot should work) and put that back in it's place.

If if you can't get a nice clean circle, if you look close on the fins there are 4 points where it is prepped for a screw, so you could rough cut something and drill a few holes to line up with those points and screw it in, but it would probably be better to have the circle thing...though there is no seal in there anyways, so moisture could easily get to the PCB no matter what.

You could also just drill out the lenses but then you have no lenses for the future if you need it

I owe you a beer Turbo!!! Check the pictures below. You were right. Now the light is more spread out and the growth is more consistent. Very dark green with a little red. Is this good? Is this typical? I just added a couple of clowns so I am feeding more.

Any comments or advise is welcomed!

[Floyd R Turbo]

Looks good!! happy to help, thanks for posting the "after" pics

[Horace]

I'll give you 3 guesses what I'm building



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[Floyd R Turbo]

Wait I know...a discotek