375-500G Projected Build - need some input

02tts · 02/22/2016, 10:17 PM

First, I posted this on another forum group but I think I posted it on the wrong group so I'm posting it here. Mods feel free to delete the other or move it here or vice versa - sorry for any confusion.

Hi all, so I'm looking to put together a build somewhere between 375-500G, this would be the DT size. The size will be determined by what the wife allows me to spend on the tank

- I plan to order the tank tomorrow so any input on the design below would be most appreciated.

The design is a high-level depiction, i.e. the sump layout will not be exactly as depicted but was used to show the components in it. Initially this will be a fish only tank with live rock but 'may' opt for some corals later on which is why I'm including a refugium from the start - if you feel a refugium is not necessary and I should go with a wet/dry style by all means let me know, but I will say the last wet/dry setup I had many years ago caused a big nitrate problem for me, coupled with the overall noise from the wet/dry and it was an unpleasant experience. Anyway, the setup will be a BA setup using the (3) 1.5" stand pipes with an internal coast to coast overflow - I show it as an external overflow because that was the initial thought but after thinking it over and from a furniture design perspective I'm going to do an internal coast to coast.

Although not depicted, there will be some powerheads for water movement unless there is a better way of doing it via a closed loop setup.

Would love to hear your thoughts, especially regarding:

1. wet/dry vs. berlin style sump
2. refugium or no refugium
3. one pump or two pumps for the return and what you feel the GPH should be
4. I will not be doing filter socks, instead I will be using the old school filter media instead but welcome any thoughts on this
5. thoughts on choice of skimmer - in speaking to Aquamaxx they recommended the CO-5 and CO-6 like another member here suggested but they also recommended the Q5, which is less expensive so I'm happier about that but wondering performance wise which will perform better?
6. I may do a nitrate reactor, not sure - any thoughts on this, are these needed/still used now a days? The tank will house some predator fish but nothing like sharks or anything big like that
7. although not included on here, I will either do a 10G or 20G reservoir for auto top offs since I will not have access to a water line where this is going
8. any thoughts on doing a series of close-loops off the bottom of the tank for circulation vs. using powerheads...any dangers on integrity given the weight of water volume if doing floor bulkheads...
9. been reading up on DSB's and I'm going to stick with a 1" sand bed to avoid any nitrate and other issues. I know some swear by a 4-6" bed but from my experience the ill effects are just too dangerous if not well maintained/cared for.

It's been 10 years for me so I'm sure I'm leaving something out. I don't plan on piping in a UV, too much unnecessary heat and I have no plans on putting in a chiller, with a UV it will almost be a guarantee I will have to.

Also, any recommendations for sump builders?

I see some using Elite Aquatics and Trigger Sys - I have reached to both and never heard back so not sure if they are even in business or what to expect of them if they are as they don't seem to communicate and have no number to call.

Any recommendations?

I truly appreciate any input!

BrokeReefing · 02/22/2016, 11:53 PM

Subbed!!!!

druzzelle · 02/23/2016, 12:07 AM

I actually like the idea of the overflow being external... keeps your DT's water volume 100% true and viewable space! and often a cleaner look. i'm tagging along for this development!!

02tts · 02/23/2016, 07:35 AM

Any thoughts...?

Do I even need a refugium if using a bio pellet reactor and skimmer in the sump?

Been thinking about the close loop idea and don't think I'll be doing a closed loop, a little scared about bulkheads leaking.

dave.m · 02/23/2016, 07:42 AM

My best guess on a few things. As with all matters tank related, no-one agrees on everything.

1. No-one uses wet/dry any more that I know of. They were determined to be nothing more than nitrate factories and were abandoned by most reef keepers in the 1990s.

2. Refugiums are good as separate tanks. I don't like them as part of the sump as they can affect or be affected by other filtration operations going on in the sump.

3. I prefer one dedicated return pump (i.e. no extra reactors on the main pump) with a spare available just in case. Turnover from the sump is usually about 5-6 x display tank volume per hour. The remaining 5-10 x water movement per hour in the tank is usually achieved with powerheads or closed loops.

4. Filter socks are far more convenient than the old floss material, but neither are absolutely required if you'd rather do a lot of vacuuming instead.

Many people prefer socks simply due to ease of maintenance. The tasks that are easiest are the ones that tend to get done.

5. Makes and models of skimmers are entirely up to what is available to you and within your budget. You get what you pay for. I prefer a needle wheel-type over venturi-type simply due to reliability and ease of maintenance. YMMV

6. No idea what you mean by "nitrate reactor". Most common reactors are one for granulated carbon and one for granulated ferrous oxide.

7. Automated top off reservoir size should be based on how much evaporation your tank typically goes through in a day, and this you won't know until the tank is up and running for a while.

8. Closed loops have been safely used for many years. Also, they can be run through the back of the display tank if running through the bottom is a problem for you. The biggest problem I've ever seen with closed loops is that you can't move them once they're installed and the tank is running. This means you have to know what you're doing in the initial design and ensure your rock design is set up to maximize the closed loop design.

9. My experience with deep sand beds (4-10") is that they are great in a running system but can quickly die and turn nasty if the power is off for more than a couple of hours, in which case they need to be completely dumped and started afresh with new sand. As with refugiums, I suggest keeping a deep sand bed filter as a separate tank so you can safely add/remove it from your system without affecting anything else. Within the display tank I think you are safe with a sand bed 1-3" inches deep, but ensure you keep plenty of sand stirrers like conchs, nassarius snails and sand-sifting gobies.

All the above is only my personal opinion and others will have different experiences and ideas so be prepared to keep an open mind and listen to as many points of view as possible.

Dave.M

02tts · 02/23/2016, 07:52 AM

Appreciate the feedback, all great points. On #6 I mean bio pellet reactor. Do you feel I would even need a refugium? Lots of mixed opinions on this...some say yes, some say it's a waste and high maintenance ..thoughts?

dave.m · 02/23/2016, 08:02 AM

You don't even have a nitrate problem yet so how could you know if you need a bio-pellet reactor? Personally I have had nothing but problems with them and won't use one again. There are lots of ways to accomplish the same benefits that bio-pellets purport to provide.

I like refugiums as pod producers or a place to keep things too delicate to survive in the main display tank (I have a vision of keeping seahorses in a refugium some day...) but I think an algal turf scrubber would be far more affective if that is your purpose in having the refugium.

Dave.M

02tts · 02/23/2016, 08:07 AM

I'm trying to anticipate the items that may be required. Last time I did this 10years ago I had a wet/dry setup and had nothing but nitrate problems on a lightly loaded tank. The only thing I could attribute it to was the wet/dry, although I never found the root cause because I ended up tearing down the tank for a move and never set it back up. I'll look into an algal turf scrubber.

02tts · 02/23/2016, 05:53 PM

Tank has been ordered today.

Final size ended up being 460G with some (2) returns and (2) close loops.

Will post final design after I update it.

Now onto the rest of the many items to worry about - like how the hell am I going to get that tank inside the house since it weighs around 900lbs - gotta research this one a little...I'm thinking equipment lift rental such as a Genie GL12 or the like, one of those AC equipment lifters..

Any ideas....

Also, any suggestions on sump builders? I was thinking Vivid Aquariums or Synergy Reef, although Synergy Reef prices are a little off the top for what it is...it's pretty but I could care less since it's going to be covered, I actually prefer clear so I can see things better vs. all these fancy multicolored setups, by that's just me.

druzzelle · 02/23/2016, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave.m

You don't even have a nitrate problem yet so how could you know if you need a bio-pellet reactor? Personally I have had nothing but problems with them and won't use one again. There are lots of ways to accomplish the same benefits that bio-pellets purport to provide.

I like refugiums as pod producers or a place to keep things too delicate to survive in the main display tank (I have a vision of keeping seahorses in a refugium some day...) but I think an algal turf scrubber would be far more affective if that is your purpose in having the refugium.

Dave.M

great points dave.. at first I thought he meant this when he said nitrate reactor http://www.aquaripure.com/index.php?...&product_id=53 i've been seeing it spread around lately.. I still dont understand them, they keep saying the media doesnt have to be replaced.. so I ask, then the tank doesnt have nitrates, its not old media thats doing it.. but a lot of people are trying it lately...

as for bio pellets I'm with you, Ive never had a good experience with them so I steer clear of them...I have a refugium within my sump and honestly I wish I had set it up as a separate tank... just would make life easier

druzzelle · 02/23/2016, 06:07 PM

I think most would recommend as much natural filtration as possible... after seeing how your system does with it.. thats when you learn what you may need to tweak with mechanical devices etc

02tts · 02/23/2016, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by druzzelle

I think most would recommend as much natural filtration as possible... after seeing how your system does with it.. thats when you learn what you may need to tweak with mechanical devices etc

Agreed, however, I'd like to get as much designed before hand by anticipating things that may or may not be needed so that I can properly figure out the required sump size, amount of chambers, what equipment will be required, power concerns, etc...doing it after the tank is in, because of where it's going, will not be very practical by any means, but I understand your point.

I'm going to research and see how well a UAS setup works because I'm not doing a waterfall setup, that's just too loud and not an option for where the tank will be going - wife will kick me out of the house, heck, she just might once she sees the bill.

druzzelle · 02/23/2016, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 02tts

Agreed, however, I'd like to get as much designed before hand by anticipating things that may or may not be needed so that I can properly figure out the required sump size, amount of chambers, what equipment will be required, power concerns, etc...doing it after the tank is in, because of where it's going, will not be very practical by any means, but I understand your point.

I'm going to research and see how well a UAS setup works because I'm not doing a waterfall setup, that's just too loud and not an option for where the tank will be going - wife will kick me out of the house, heck, she just might once she sees the bill.

nothing wrong with having equipment on hand "in case" you need it.. planning ahead is always best practice. just make sure when you're researching products you account for your total water volume, it will create a need for larger volume or more equipment. as for the waterfall setup... the standard overflow can be loud..but there are tons of options that will silence an overflow i.e. bean animal, durso etc you really can make it dead silent. and keep in mind that the waterfall setup also contributes to oxygenating the water via turbulance on the surface... not sure if you plan on a canopy or not... but that can also aid in noise dampening/cancelling

02tts · 02/23/2016, 06:24 PM

Yes I am doing a BA overflow as depicted above. There will be a canopy with the top of the tank will be open so noise will always feed through.

We'll see, I'm going to make room and pipe bio pellet reactor just in case I need it, if I don't than that line just just stays closed.

Jade5051 · 02/23/2016, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 02tts

Agreed, however, I'd like to get as much designed before hand by anticipating things that may or may not be needed so that I can properly figure out the required sump size, amount of chambers, what equipment will be required, power concerns, etc...doing it after the tank is in, because of where it's going, will not be very practical by any means, but I understand your point.

I'm going to research and see how well a UAS setup works because I'm not doing a waterfall setup, that's just too loud and not an option for where the tank will be going - wife will kick me out of the house, heck, she just might once she sees the bill.

It's great that you are considering an ATS. Keep in mind that UAS are considered less effective than a waterfall ATS. Also, many hobbyist claim their waterfall scrubbers are silent. It seems lessening noise is a matter of proper design.

dave.m · 02/24/2016, 02:33 AM

The other question I forgot to ask is - What books are you using? If you aren't reading you are opening yourself up to a lot of problems. I suggest the books by Mr. Saltwater Tank as they are the most up to date.

Dave.M

02tts · 02/25/2016, 12:53 PM

Have read several but given the large amount of folks in this forum I wanted to hear from real life experiences of the many trial and errors.

02tts · 02/25/2016, 12:53 PM

Went with a closed loop system and external cost to cost after all.

Johnseye · 02/25/2016, 02:53 PM

In your plumbing use wyes instead of Ts where possible. Also 45s or sweeping 90s instead of 90s.

02tts · 02/25/2016, 02:55 PM

Ah yes, appreciate the feedback. Again, this is just high level drawing but that is an excellent point to improve flow and lessen head pressure.

Thank you!

02tts · 02/28/2016, 03:34 PM

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1456694950.213641.jpg

Getting the necessary hardware for the stand. I know some prefer steel or aluminum but I disagree that one is needed to withstand the weight. If properly designed, wood works just fine plus never have to worry about rust (guess you could powder coat) or level issues. Can easily control level issues with a wood stand which are almost impossible to do once a steel or aluminum stand is welded together.

As they say, to each it's own

02tts · 03/01/2016, 05:27 PM

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1456874752.516069.jpg

The stand getting prepped.

02tts · 03/01/2016, 05:28 PM

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1456874879.134151.jpg

02tts · 03/04/2016, 05:51 PM

Semi finished stand. Flooring is plywood with pvc covering to make a pan like setup in case water spills, drips, etc.

Need to flip it and then cut the trim pvc pieces, then glue and silicone.

Base will then be done.

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1457135441.718383.jpg

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1457135458.632902.jpg

02tts · 03/18/2016, 01:58 PM

Tank has shipped.
1k lbs - don't think I'll be swinging a delivery with a couple of guys

So, having 5 moving guys handle.

02/22/2016, 10:17 PM	#1
02tts Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Palm Beaches Posts: 671	375-500G Projected Build - need some input First, I posted this on another forum group but I think I posted it on the wrong group so I'm posting it here. Mods feel free to delete the other or move it here or vice versa - sorry for any confusion. Hi all, so I'm looking to put together a build somewhere between 375-500G, this would be the DT size. The size will be determined by what the wife allows me to spend on the tank - I plan to order the tank tomorrow so any input on the design below would be most appreciated. The design is a high-level depiction, i.e. the sump layout will not be exactly as depicted but was used to show the components in it. Initially this will be a fish only tank with live rock but 'may' opt for some corals later on which is why I'm including a refugium from the start - if you feel a refugium is not necessary and I should go with a wet/dry style by all means let me know, but I will say the last wet/dry setup I had many years ago caused a big nitrate problem for me, coupled with the overall noise from the wet/dry and it was an unpleasant experience. Anyway, the setup will be a BA setup using the (3) 1.5" stand pipes with an internal coast to coast overflow - I show it as an external overflow because that was the initial thought but after thinking it over and from a furniture design perspective I'm going to do an internal coast to coast. Although not depicted, there will be some powerheads for water movement unless there is a better way of doing it via a closed loop setup. Would love to hear your thoughts, especially regarding: 1. wet/dry vs. berlin style sump 2. refugium or no refugium 3. one pump or two pumps for the return and what you feel the GPH should be 4. I will not be doing filter socks, instead I will be using the old school filter media instead but welcome any thoughts on this 5. thoughts on choice of skimmer - in speaking to Aquamaxx they recommended the CO-5 and CO-6 like another member here suggested but they also recommended the Q5, which is less expensive so I'm happier about that but wondering performance wise which will perform better? 6. I may do a nitrate reactor, not sure - any thoughts on this, are these needed/still used now a days? The tank will house some predator fish but nothing like sharks or anything big like that 7. although not included on here, I will either do a 10G or 20G reservoir for auto top offs since I will not have access to a water line where this is going 8. any thoughts on doing a series of close-loops off the bottom of the tank for circulation vs. using powerheads...any dangers on integrity given the weight of water volume if doing floor bulkheads... 9. been reading up on DSB's and I'm going to stick with a 1" sand bed to avoid any nitrate and other issues. I know some swear by a 4-6" bed but from my experience the ill effects are just too dangerous if not well maintained/cared for. It's been 10 years for me so I'm sure I'm leaving something out. I don't plan on piping in a UV, too much unnecessary heat and I have no plans on putting in a chiller, with a UV it will almost be a guarantee I will have to. Also, any recommendations for sump builders? I see some using Elite Aquatics and Trigger Sys - I have reached to both and never heard back so not sure if they are even in business or what to expect of them if they are as they don't seem to communicate and have no number to call. Any recommendations? I truly appreciate any input!

02/23/2016, 07:42 AM	#5
dave.m Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Canadia Posts: 4,276	My best guess on a few things. As with all matters tank related, no-one agrees on everything. 1. No-one uses wet/dry any more that I know of. They were determined to be nothing more than nitrate factories and were abandoned by most reef keepers in the 1990s. 2. Refugiums are good as separate tanks. I don't like them as part of the sump as they can affect or be affected by other filtration operations going on in the sump. 3. I prefer one dedicated return pump (i.e. no extra reactors on the main pump) with a spare available just in case. Turnover from the sump is usually about 5-6 x display tank volume per hour. The remaining 5-10 x water movement per hour in the tank is usually achieved with powerheads or closed loops. 4. Filter socks are far more convenient than the old floss material, but neither are absolutely required if you'd rather do a lot of vacuuming instead. Many people prefer socks simply due to ease of maintenance. The tasks that are easiest are the ones that tend to get done. 5. Makes and models of skimmers are entirely up to what is available to you and within your budget. You get what you pay for. I prefer a needle wheel-type over venturi-type simply due to reliability and ease of maintenance. YMMV 6. No idea what you mean by "nitrate reactor". Most common reactors are one for granulated carbon and one for granulated ferrous oxide. 7. Automated top off reservoir size should be based on how much evaporation your tank typically goes through in a day, and this you won't know until the tank is up and running for a while. 8. Closed loops have been safely used for many years. Also, they can be run through the back of the display tank if running through the bottom is a problem for you. The biggest problem I've ever seen with closed loops is that you can't move them once they're installed and the tank is running. This means you have to know what you're doing in the initial design and ensure your rock design is set up to maximize the closed loop design. 9. My experience with deep sand beds (4-10") is that they are great in a running system but can quickly die and turn nasty if the power is off for more than a couple of hours, in which case they need to be completely dumped and started afresh with new sand. As with refugiums, I suggest keeping a deep sand bed filter as a separate tank so you can safely add/remove it from your system without affecting anything else. Within the display tank I think you are safe with a sand bed 1-3" inches deep, but ensure you keep plenty of sand stirrers like conchs, nassarius snails and sand-sifting gobies. All the above is only my personal opinion and others will have different experiences and ideas so be prepared to keep an open mind and listen to as many points of view as possible. Dave.M __________________ My Gawd! It's full of corals! Current Tank Info: None. Nil. Zip. Nada.

02/23/2016, 08:02 AM	#7
dave.m Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Canadia Posts: 4,276	You don't even have a nitrate problem yet so how could you know if you need a bio-pellet reactor? Personally I have had nothing but problems with them and won't use one again. There are lots of ways to accomplish the same benefits that bio-pellets purport to provide. I like refugiums as pod producers or a place to keep things too delicate to survive in the main display tank (I have a vision of keeping seahorses in a refugium some day...) but I think an algal turf scrubber would be far more affective if that is your purpose in having the refugium. Dave.M __________________ My Gawd! It's full of corals! Current Tank Info: None. Nil. Zip. Nada.

02/23/2016, 05:53 PM	#9
02tts Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Palm Beaches Posts: 671	Tank has been ordered today. Final size ended up being 460G with some (2) returns and (2) close loops. Will post final design after I update it. Now onto the rest of the many items to worry about - like how the hell am I going to get that tank inside the house since it weighs around 900lbs - gotta research this one a little...I'm thinking equipment lift rental such as a Genie GL12 or the like, one of those AC equipment lifters.. Any ideas.... Also, any suggestions on sump builders? I was thinking Vivid Aquariums or Synergy Reef, although Synergy Reef prices are a little off the top for what it is...it's pretty but I could care less since it's going to be covered, I actually prefer clear so I can see things better vs. all these fancy multicolored setups, by that's just me. Last edited by 02tts; 02/23/2016 at 06:02 PM.

02/24/2016, 02:33 AM	#16
dave.m Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Canadia Posts: 4,276	The other question I forgot to ask is - What books are you using? If you aren't reading you are opening yourself up to a lot of problems. I suggest the books by Mr. Saltwater Tank as they are the most up to date. Dave.M __________________ My Gawd! It's full of corals! Current Tank Info: None. Nil. Zip. Nada.

02/22/2016, 11:53 PM	#2
BrokeReefing Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 43	Subbed!!!!

02/23/2016, 12:07 AM	#3
druzzelle Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Dallas, Tx Posts: 74	I actually like the idea of the overflow being external... keeps your DT's water volume 100% true and viewable space! and often a cleaner look. i'm tagging along for this development!!

02/23/2016, 07:35 AM	#4
02tts Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Palm Beaches Posts: 671	Any thoughts...? Do I even need a refugium if using a bio pellet reactor and skimmer in the sump? Been thinking about the close loop idea and don't think I'll be doing a closed loop, a little scared about bulkheads leaking.

02/23/2016, 07:52 AM	#6
02tts Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Palm Beaches Posts: 671	Appreciate the feedback, all great points. On #6 I mean bio pellet reactor. Do you feel I would even need a refugium? Lots of mixed opinions on this...some say yes, some say it's a waste and high maintenance ..thoughts?

02/23/2016, 08:07 AM	#8
02tts Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Palm Beaches Posts: 671	I'm trying to anticipate the items that may be required. Last time I did this 10years ago I had a wet/dry setup and had nothing but nitrate problems on a lightly loaded tank. The only thing I could attribute it to was the wet/dry, although I never found the root cause because I ended up tearing down the tank for a move and never set it back up. I'll look into an algal turf scrubber.

02/23/2016, 06:07 PM	#11
druzzelle Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Dallas, Tx Posts: 74	I think most would recommend as much natural filtration as possible... after seeing how your system does with it.. thats when you learn what you may need to tweak with mechanical devices etc

02/23/2016, 06:24 PM	#14
02tts Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Palm Beaches Posts: 671	Yes I am doing a BA overflow as depicted above. There will be a canopy with the top of the tank will be open so noise will always feed through. We'll see, I'm going to make room and pipe bio pellet reactor just in case I need it, if I don't than that line just just stays closed.

02/25/2016, 12:53 PM	#17
02tts Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Palm Beaches Posts: 671	375-500G Projected Build - need some input Have read several but given the large amount of folks in this forum I wanted to hear from real life experiences of the many trial and errors.

02/25/2016, 02:53 PM	#19
Johnseye Reef Addict Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Naperville, IL. Posts: 1,196	In your plumbing use wyes instead of Ts where possible. Also 45s or sweeping 90s instead of 90s. __________________ - John New 260g build thread: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2557715 Current Tank Info: 260g reef, Giesemann Spectra MH/T5/Kessil A160, Dastaco CaRx, Vortechs, Lifereef skimmer, Red Dragon 3, Apex, Genesis, Angles, Tang, Trigger, Clowns, Anthias, Wrasses, Cardinals, SPS, LPS

02/25/2016, 02:55 PM	#20
02tts Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Palm Beaches Posts: 671	Ah yes, appreciate the feedback. Again, this is just high level drawing but that is an excellent point to improve flow and lessen head pressure. Thank you!

02/28/2016, 03:34 PM	#21
02tts Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Palm Beaches Posts: 671	ImageUploadedByTapatalk1456694950.213641.jpg Getting the necessary hardware for the stand. I know some prefer steel or aluminum but I disagree that one is needed to withstand the weight. If properly designed, wood works just fine plus never have to worry about rust (guess you could powder coat) or level issues. Can easily control level issues with a wood stand which are almost impossible to do once a steel or aluminum stand is welded together. As they say, to each it's own

03/01/2016, 05:27 PM	#22
02tts Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Palm Beaches Posts: 671	ImageUploadedByTapatalk1456874752.516069.jpg The stand getting prepped.

03/01/2016, 05:28 PM	#23
02tts Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Palm Beaches Posts: 671	ImageUploadedByTapatalk1456874879.134151.jpg

03/04/2016, 05:51 PM	#24
02tts Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Palm Beaches Posts: 671	Semi finished stand. Flooring is plywood with pvc covering to make a pan like setup in case water spills, drips, etc. Need to flip it and then cut the trim pvc pieces, then glue and silicone. Base will then be done. ImageUploadedByTapatalk1457135441.718383.jpg ImageUploadedByTapatalk1457135458.632902.jpg

03/18/2016, 01:58 PM	#25
02tts Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Palm Beaches Posts: 671	Tank has shipped. 1k lbs - don't think I'll be swinging a delivery with a couple of guys So, having 5 moving guys handle.