Apex users I have some programming questions

[Bent]

Hello, I just finished up last night setting up my other EB8. I’m trying to accomplish two things. An AWC and view my webcam. First I’ll give details on the AWC.

Outlets:
Sump_Fill
Sump_drain
ATO_Pump

Inputs
ATO_NWL (normal operating water level)
High_Panic (water level in sump too high)
NSW_Empty (water in new salt water container empty)
LOW_Panic (water level in sump too low)

Here is the procedure I’m looking for that I need some help programming.

Everyday I want the following to occur at a set time

I want the ATO pump to turn off
Sump drain pump to come on for 10 sec
Sump fill pump to come on until the ATO switch is triggered.
ATO to come back on.
Not do anything if the NSW container is near empty.

Failsafes
I want the entire procedure canceled if the nsw empty float is triggered or if there is some other way to prevent the procedure from occurring if the container hasn’t been filled. Maybe I can install a “procedure reset” button. Make the apex somehow only do the procedure x number of times and it won’t do it again unless I manually push the button. Regardless I don’t want this thing trying to do this if it’s near empty.

I’d like the high panic switch to shut the sump fill pump off
I’d like the low panic switch to shut the sump drain pump off

That’s it. I have no clue how to set this up.

The second thing is much simpler.

I have a Foscam that I can’t see in my fusion dashboard despite using a DDNS. I can see it every other possible way except apex fusion. I imagine it has something to do with being unable to input the UN and password. Is there a way to do this, something like:

Http://blablah.ddns.net:343/UN-test/password-(blank)

I just don’t know the correct string to input.


Thanks all.

[ca1ore]

Not using the DoS, right?


Add to ATO_Pump outlet:

IF Output Sump_Drain ON Then OFF
If Output Sump_Fill ON Then OFF

Sump_drain outlet:

OSC 000.00/000.10/xxx.xxx Then ON
IF NSW_Empty ON Then OFF

Sump_Fill outlet:

OSC 000.10/000.10/XXX.XX
IF NSW_Empty Then OFF
IF ATO_NWL OFF then OFF

Something like that.

[Bent]

OSC 000.10/000.10/XXX.XX

Thanks buddy.
What exactly does this mean?

[ca1ore]

OSC 000.10/000.10/1439.40 - Beginning at 12:00 AM every day, pump off for 10 seconds, then on for 10 seconds than off again for the remainder of the day. I think perhaps the OSC can only handle up to 999.99 minutes so you may have to use a time command like:

OSC 000.10/000.10/719.40 Then ON
If Time 12:00 to 24:00 Then OFF

[Bent]

Originally Posted by ca1ore

OSC 000.10/000.10/1439.40 - Beginning at 12:00 AM every day, pump off for 10 seconds, then on for 10 seconds than off again for the remainder of the day. I think perhaps the OSC can only handle up to 999.99 minutes so you may have to use a time command like:

OSC 000.10/000.10/719.40 Then ON
If Time 12:00 to 24:00 Then OFF

Ok I got it now. Makes sense.

I’m running into an issue doing it this way.

Seems like toward the end of the NSW container the float switch is being triggered turning off the sump fill pump before the sump is completely full which is keeping the ATO from being Turned back on.

I can’t think of a way to ensure that the process doesn’t start if there isn’t a sufficient amount of water in the NSW container to fill the sump back up completely, other than my button idea.

Anything you can think of?

[homer1475]

A third float, virtual outlet, and a defer command.

The defer command will leave the outlet in its original state for XX amount of time. This way when that third float changes to open/closed the outlet will ignore it, leaving it on until the bottom float is triggered, or your time command.


I think........

[ca1ore]

Originally Posted by Bent

Seems like toward the end of the NSW container the float switch is being triggered turning off the sump fill pump before the sump is completely full which is keeping the ATO from being Turned back on.

If you do it the way I suggested, when the float switch in the NSW container triggers to turn off Sump_Fill, the off condition in the ATO outlet should be relieved and the ATO works again .... I think

The one thing you are going to find though is that by doing it this way, over time, your salinity may creep up because on average you will be adding slightly more water than you are removing because Sump_Drain wont; always be triggering at the high point on the ATO switch.

[Joe0813]

I'm terrible at using my apex

[Bent]

Originally Posted by ca1ore

If you do it the way I suggested, when the float switch in the NSW container triggers to turn off Sump_Fill, the off condition in the ATO outlet should be relieved and the ATO works again .... I think

The one thing you are going to find though is that by doing it this way, over time, your salinity may creep up because on average you will be adding slightly more water than you are removing because Sump_Drain wont; always be triggering at the high point on the ATO switch.

That’s exactly what I’m trying to avoid here.

[Bent]

Dangit I can’t get this to work.

Is there a way I can fix it like my other idea?

Install a physical button near my sat mix station.
The apex will only do the procedure 10 times unless I hit the button.

This way when I’m downstairs physically mixing the NSW. When I’m done and have a full container I can push the button.

If I don’t push the button the apex will only do 10 total and stop.

[Bent]

I’m about to throw thing out the window.

[Bent]

Ok what if I make a virtual outlet called water change? Flip the virtual outlet on and it does the whole procedure.

Turn the ATO pump off
Turn the sump drain pump on for 10 seconds
Turn the sump drain pump off
Turn the sump fill pump on
When ATO float is triggered turn the sump fill pump off
Turn the ATO pump on.

Would you program all this under the virtual outlet? Or would each outlet have to be programmed with “if outlet water_change on” statement to perform the task?

What happens if I leave the outlet on? Is there a way to program it so when the procedure is finished the outlet defaults back off?

I’m starting to think this apex just isn’t what it’s cracked up to be.

[homer1475]

lets see.....

you could do it all under one virtual outlet then reference that outlet in each outlet you want to change it's state.


For the virtual outlet(lets call it Auto_WC):

osc 059:49/0:10/ then on

Or if you want a button wired in to a BOB:

if sw1(this is the switch location on the BOB) open then on

Let just reference in your ATO outlet
if outlet Auto_WC = on then on/off whatever you want the state of the outlet to be.

[Bent]

Originally Posted by homer1475

lets see.....

you could do it all under one virtual outlet then reference that outlet in each outlet you want to change it's state.


For the virtual outlet(lets call it Auto_WC):

osc 059:49/0:10/ then on

Or if you want a button wired in to a BOB:

if sw1(this is the switch location on the BOB) open then on

Let just reference in your ATO outlet
if outlet Auto_WC = on then on/off whatever you want the state of the outlet to be.

Ok ok it’s starting to make some sense

I’m still having trouble with the osc command. Explain it to me as you would to a child lol.

[BrettDS]

OK, I’ll take a stab at this. First, how is your ATO configured? Is it controlled by the apex or is it a third party ATO? Ideally it would be fully controlled by the apex and, so you could top off the water before you did the AWC so you would be sure that it empties and fills the same amount.

If you want to this to run once a day, I would do this:

For your outlet sump_drain, set up the program like this:

Fallback OFF
OSC 000:00/000:10/000:50 Then ON
If Time 12:01 to 11:59 Then OFF
If NSW_Empty Closed Then OFF
If LOW_Panic Closed Then OFF

The OSC command tells it to turn on for 10 seconds, then off for 50 seconds. It will repeat this indefinitely, but the commands lower down take priority, so the If Time command will only allow it to run for one minute from 12:00 to 12:01. For the entire rest of the day that command will force the outlet to be off. And since the OSC command only allows it to run for the first 10 seconds of each minute, this will cause the sump drain pump to run for 10 seconds at noon every day.

Also, note that the time command is ‘backwards’ with the later time first. This makes it span from one day to the next, so it spans from 12:01 on one day until 11:59 on the next day. (But it stays off for the entire minute of 11:59 ending at 11:59 and 59 seconds). Since the time command says “Then OFF” that forces the outlet to be off during that entire period. During the one minute that it doesn’t cover it won’t turn the outlet on, but it also won’t force it off, so the command above it will be allowed to run. That’s the OSC command that runs the pump for 10 seconds of each minute.

Again, since the lower commands take priority, if NSW_Empty or LOW_Panic gets triggered then it won’t run at all. This is assuming that they go to closed when they are triggered. If they are normally closed and they go to open when triggered then change the Closed to Open in those two lines.


For the outlet sump_fill, set it up like this:
Fallback OFF
SET OFF
If Time 12:01 to 12:02 Then ON
If ATO_NWL Closed Then OFF
If High_Panic Closed Then OFF
If NSW_Empty Closed Then OFF

This will turn on the Sump Fill pump for a max of one minute from 12:01 to 12:02 every day. If it takes more than one minute to refill the sump you can increase that time, but if not, only allowing it to run for a max of one minute can be another failsafe. And as above, lower commands take priority, so even if it’s during it’s one minute runtime, if ATL_NWL, High_Panic, or NSW_Empty get triggered, then it will shut off. Also, as above, if those are normally closed and they go to open when triggered, then change Closed to Open for those lines.

For the ATO_Pump outlet you could simply add a line at the bottom that says

If Time 12:00 to 12:02 Then OFF

That will keep it off during the two minutes that the auto water change is happening. Remember that it has to go at the bottom because the lower commands take priority. But again, depending on how you have your ATO configured we might be able to get it to top off the tank just before the AWC starts.

This should fit all of your requirements with one catch. That catch is the fact that if your NSW reservoir is almost empty (but not empty enough to trigger the float switch) when it starts, then what could happen is that the AWC starts and the sump is drained, then the sump starts refilling and the NSW_Empty float switch triggers when it’s only halfway full. The refill pump will still stop as soon as that float switch triggers even though the sump hasn’t been completely refilled. Then as soon as the ATO comes back on it will refill it with fresh water.

I have a couple of ideas on this. I think I can come up with a way to work around it.

[BrettDS]

OK, I think this should resolve the issue with the sump_fill pump shutting off partway though it’s cycle.

You will need to set up a new virtual outlet, call it NSW_E_Delay (or something like that)

The program for that outlet should look like this:

SET OFF
If NSW_Empty Closed Then ON
Defer 001:00 Then ON


Then modify the sump_fill program to look like this:

Fallback OFF
SET OFF
If Time 12:01 to 12:02 Then ON
If ATO_NWL Closed Then OFF
If High_Panic Closed Then OFF
If Outlet NSW_E_Delay = On Then OFF


The NSW_E_Delay outlet will only turn on when the NSW_Empty float switch has been closed for 1 minute (that’s what the defer command does). So that way even if the float switch closes during the fill it won’t actually stop the pump. (You’ll need to make sure that there is enough reserve below the float switch so that you can allow the sump to be completely refilled that one last time). And as above, change the Closed’s to Open’s if that’s how your float switches are wired.

We need to do this in a separate virtual outlet because the defer command applies to the whole outlet and not individual commands. If we put the defer command on the sump_fill outlet then the outlet would always run for a full minute before it shut off and that’s not what we want.

Also note that I didn’t actually program these into my apex, so there may be typos, but I think everything is correct.

Let me know if you have any questions or if things aren’t working the way you expect when you get everything programmed. Also get me more details about how your ATO works, and if it’s controlled by the apex we might be able to ensure that it tops off the tank just before the AWC runs.

[BrettDS]

Actually, there is one more potential issue here that you need to be aware of. Relying on the NSW_Empty float switch to turn off then AWC when you are running low on NSW is good, but the minute you start refilling your NSW reservoir with water and the float switch turns off then the AWC will turn back on to run at it’s scheduled time.

If you refill your NSW reservoir with saltwater and it’s instantly ready to go then this isn’t a problem. But if you refill your NSW reservoir with fresh water and then mix in salt then depending on when you do this the AWC could trigger and pump fresh water or half mixed saltwater into your sump.

I do have a way to work around this if you intend to refill the reservoir with fresh water and then mix the salt in. Let me know if that’s the case and I can give you the details.

[Bent]

Wow let me read all this!

Thanks for taking the time to write all that.

[Bent]

Ok I got it all programmed here, I’m going to post everything exactly how I have it written, with the exact input and outlet names.

Outlets:
ATO_Pump
Sump_Fill
Sump_Drain
NSW_E_Delay

Inputs:
NSW_Lo
ATO_NL
SumpHi
SumpLo

All inputs are normally open. Triggered state is closed.

Here’s the programming for each outlet

ATO_Pump:

Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If ATO_NL CLOSED Then ON
If SumpHi CLOSED Then OFF
Defer 002:00 Then ON
Min Time 010:00 Then OFF
If Output Sump_Fill = ON Then OFF
If Output Sump_Drain = ON Then OFF
If Output NSW_E_Delay = ON Then OFF
_____________________________

Sump Drain:

Fallback OFF
Set OFF
OSC 000:00/000:10/000:50 Then ON
If Time 12:01 to 11:59 Then OFF
If NSW_Lo CLOSED Then OFF
If SumpLo CLOSED Then OFF
If Output ATO_Pump = ON Then OFF
_____________________________

Sump_Fill:

Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If Time 12:01 to 12:02 Then ON
If ATO_NL OPEN Then OFF
If SumpHi CLOSED Then OFF
If NSW_Lo CLOSED Then OFF
If Output ATO_Pump = ON Then OFF
If Output NSW_E_Delay = ON Then OFF
_________________________________

Virtual outlet NSW_E_Delay

Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If NSW_Lo CLOSED Then ON
Defer 001:00 Then ON
___________________________________







Opinion?

[BrettDS]

Originally Posted by Bent

ATO_Pump:

Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If ATO_NL CLOSED Then ON
If SumpHi CLOSED Then OFF
Defer 002:00 Then ON
Min Time 010:00 Then OFF
If Output Sump_Fill = ON Then OFF
If Output Sump_Drain = ON Then OFF
If Output NSW_E_Delay = ON Then OFF

For the most part everything looks good, but you’ll need to make some changes to the above.

First, you should take out the last three lines.

There is no need to put the if output NSW_E_Delay in there for your ATO pump. That will cause your ATO to turn off whenever your NSW reservoir is empty. That shouldn’t happen

Additionally, you should take out the if output Sump_Drain and of output Sump_fill lines. Those will turn off the ATO when the AWC change pumps are running, but only when they are running.

The way the AWC is set up now the drain pump will turn on for 10 seconds at noon, then 50 seconds later the fill pump will turn on until it’s full. With the program you have above the ATO could turn on during that 50 second period when the sump is drained and both pumps are off.

Instead replace those three lines with:

If Time 12:00 to 12:02 then OFF

That will keep the ATO off for the entire time the AWC is doing its thing. (And by removing the last line, allow the ATO to run even when the NSW reservoir is empty)

I’ll spend some more time later today trying to come up with an option to top off the tank with freshwater before the AWC runs.

[BrettDS]

On a side note, just as a matter of clean code, you don’t really need the SET OFF for the Sump_Drain pump. The OSC line below it will always set the outlet to on or off so SET off will always be overridden, since lower commands win.

Additionally you don’t need the FALLBACK OFF command for the virtual outlet. The fallback command tells the EB8 what state the outlet should be in if the Apex brain gets disconnected for some reason. Since the virtual outlet only exists in the apex brain and there is no physical outlet associated with it, then the fallback command will do nothing.

Having those commands there won’t hurt anything, but they are extra and not necessary.

[BrettDS]

Ok, here’s how the program should look to allow the ATO pump to top off right before the AWC runs:

ATO_Pump:

Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If ATO_NL CLOSED Then ON
If Time 11:46 to 11:56 Then OFF
If Time 11:57 to 11:59 Then ON
If SumpHi CLOSED Then OFF
If Time 12:00 to 12:01 Then OFF
Defer 002:00 Then ON
Min Time 010:00 Then OFF


Ok, this is kind of a weird one with all those if times. But we are working around the min time and defer commands. As I said above, defer applies to the whole outlet and not just one command and min time is the same.

First, the Min Time command is there so that once the ATO runs it will need to be off for at least 10 minutes before it can be triggered again. This will keep it from starting and stopping frequently which could be bad for the pump. But, since we want it to turn on at a specific time we need to have it turned off for at least 10 minutes before that time to satisfy the Min Time command. That’s what the first If Time command does.

The defer command is there to ensure that the ATO_NL float must be closed for two minutes before the ATO pump is triggered. This is to keep the pump from conning on for a second if there is a wave or something that triggers the float switch for just a second. Again, you want to make sure that it really needs water to keep the pump from running for just a short time frequently. But like I said above, the defer command applies to the whole outlet, so in this case it needs to be turned on for two minutes before it actually will turn on the pump. That’s what the second if Time command does. It turns it on for 3 minutes. The pump will stay off for the first two minutes until the defer command is satisfied, then run for up to one minute after that. However, since I moved the IF Sump_Hi CLOSED Then OFF to after that command and lower commands take priority then it will run the ATO pump for one minute at 11:59 until the Sump_Hi float is triggered.

The last if Time command is the one we discussed above to keep the ATO off during the AWC.

[Bent]

Originally Posted by BrettDS

For the most part everything looks good, but you’ll need to make some changes to the above.

First, you should take out the last three lines.

There is no need to put the if output NSW_E_Delay in there for your ATO pump. That will cause your ATO to turn off whenever your NSW reservoir is empty. That shouldn’t happen

Additionally, you should take out the if output Sump_Drain and of output Sump_fill lines. Those will turn off the ATO when the AWC change pumps are running, but only when they are running.

The way the AWC is set up now the drain pump will turn on for 10 seconds at noon, then 50 seconds later the fill pump will turn on until it’s full. With the program you have above the ATO could turn on during that 50 second period when the sump is drained and both pumps are off.

Instead replace those three lines with:

If Time 12:00 to 12:02 then OFF

That will keep the ATO off for the entire time the AWC is doing its thing. (And by removing the last line, allow the ATO to run even when the NSW reservoir is empty)

I’ll spend some more time later today trying to come up with an option to top off the tank with freshwater before the AWC runs.

Lol I had to read that three times to understand but I got it now. I wasn’t counting on the 50 seconds of time when the sump will be low.

[Bent]

Originally Posted by BrettDS

Ok, here’s how the program should look to allow the ATO pump to top off right before the AWC runs:

ATO_Pump:

Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If ATO_NL CLOSED Then ON
If Time 11:46 to 11:56 Then OFF
If Time 11:57 to 11:59 Then ON
If SumpHi CLOSED Then OFF
If Time 12:00 to 12:01 Then OFF
Defer 002:00 Then ON
Min Time 010:00 Then OFF


Ok, this is kind of a weird one with all those if times. But we are working around the min time and defer commands. As I said above, defer applies to the whole outlet and not just one command and min time is the same.

First, the Min Time command is there so that once the ATO runs it will need to be off for at least 10 minutes before it can be triggered again. This will keep it from starting and stopping frequently which could be bad for the pump. But, since we want it to turn on at a specific time we need to have it turned off for at least 10 minutes before that time to satisfy the Min Time command. That’s what the first If Time command does.

The defer command is there to ensure that the ATO_NL float must be closed for two minutes before the ATO pump is triggered. This is to keep the pump from conning on for a second if there is a wave or something that triggers the float switch for just a second. Again, you want to make sure that it really needs water to keep the pump from running for just a short time frequently. But like I said above, the defer command applies to the whole outlet, so in this case it needs to be turned on for two minutes before it actually will turn on the pump. That’s what the second if Time command does. It turns it on for 3 minutes. The pump will stay off for the first two minutes until the defer command is satisfied, then run for up to one minute after that. However, since I moved the IF Sump_Hi CLOSED Then OFF to after that command and lower commands take priority then it will run the ATO pump for one minute at 11:59 until the Sump_Hi float is triggered.

The last if Time command is the one we discussed above to keep the ATO off during the AWC.

Ok I’m going to have to read this too a few times to fully understand.

[BrettDS]

When you’re reading apex programming it really helps to start at the bottom and go up, since lower commands take priority, so reversing this one we have the following:

Min Time 010:00 Then OFF

This one just says that it needs to be off for 10 minutes before it will turn on again.

Defer 002:00 Then ON

This one says that it won’t turn on until the triggers have been in the ON condition for two minutes.

If Time 12:00 to 12:01 Then OFF

This says that if the time is between 12:00:00 (12:00 and 0 seconds) and 12:01:59 (12:01 and 59 seconds) then it will be OFF. If it is between those times, then this is the lowest active command and you don’t need to go any further. The outlet will be OFF no matter what anything above it says. If it is not between those times, then this line does nothing and you can read on.

If SumpHi CLOSED Then OFF

This causes the outlet to turn off if SumpHi is closed. If this is the case, then there’s no need to read further as it takes priority over everything above it and the outlet will be off no matter what is above it. If sumphi is open, then this line does nothing and you can read on.

If Time 11:57 to 11:59 Then ON

This says that if the time is between 11:57:00 and 11:59:59 then it will be ON. If it is between those times, then this is the lowest active command and you don’t need to go any further. The outlet will be ON no matter what anything above it says. If it is not between those times, then this line does nothing and you can read on.

If Time 11:46 to 11:56 Then OFF

This says that if the time is between 11:46:00 and 11:56:59 then it will be OFF. If it is between those times, then this is the lowest active command and you don’t need to go any further. The outlet will be OFF no matter what anything above it says. If it is not between those times, then this line does nothing and you can read on.

If ATO_NL CLOSED Then ON

This causes the outlet to turn on it ATO_NL is closed. If this is the case, then there’s no need to read further as it takes priority over everything above it and the outlet will be on no matter what is above it. If ato_nl is open, then this line does nothing and you can read on.

SET OFF

This causes the outlet to be off no matter what. Anything above it will be overridden. So if you get up here then none of the conditions below apply and the outlet will be off.

FALLBACK OFF

As I said above, this is a safety command in the case of the apex going offline. If the eb8 is still online it will follow the fallback command and in this case turn the outlet off until the apex comes back online and takes over.