Has Anyone Tried a "Rubble Bottom?" - Page 3

algaeguy · 08/08/2005, 09:57 PM

Tunguska:

I'm fascinated by your "mixed grain" sand/rubble zone. You mention what I feel is one of the biggest benefits of this type of setup- the biodiveristy and and potential for alternative food sources being developed within the system itself...sort of an in-tank refugium.

Sandbeds are still a controversial topic, but it's very nice to hear success stories from hobbyists using a variety of approaches.

Thanks again for your input!

Scott

Paul B · 08/09/2005, 02:56 AM

Lillibirdi, that was last year, the slugs lived about 18 monthes which is a lot longer then they are supposed to live. I did sell most of them to a researcher in Conn. Many more I traded to a LFS. I used them like credit cards. I don't think there are any more of them in my reef. They reproduced a few times then ran out of steam.
Paul

Tunguska · 08/09/2005, 10:49 AM

algaeguy:

Yes, it is basically an in-tank reffugium. Initially, I added the larger rubble in "pod piles" in anticipation of adding a mandarin -- I got a scooter blenny about a month ago. It is my only fish. Eventually, I filled up the hidden spots behind rocks with all the rubble I added, so I just started dropping it where ever. This led to my mixed grain rubble DSB.

Tunguska · 08/09/2005, 10:49 AM

Paul:

Congrats on your breeding success! I tried a lettuce slug once, but I saw my crabs kill it. I always thought they were supposed to be poisonous? Anyways, I think the "slugs" I have are really snails with slug shaped bodies and semi-ovoid shells. They are mostly light green, with parts that fade almost to white. One of them is jet black. I've never seen them before, and I don't have a camera for pictures, so I still dont know what they are.

just dave · 08/12/2005, 10:43 PM

While not exactly what you are going for I have my tanks viewable bottom area covered with rock and where it meets the glass it is rubble. Works great so far.

algaeguy · 08/13/2005, 04:36 PM

Actually, Dave- it is very similar...

How 'bout some pics?

Scott

just dave · 08/13/2005, 10:42 PM

lillibirdy · 08/14/2005, 12:36 AM

Dang that's a purty tank! I am still trying to figure out how you guys can get all the different corals so close without them trying to sting each other...

algaeguy · 08/14/2005, 10:38 PM

Really nice stuff...That's a true "rubble bottom" over a "BB" . I like the idea...Very unique.

Thanks for the pics!

Scott

jda · 08/17/2005, 12:14 PM

Saw this thread kinda late, but I use a rubble bottom on my FOWLR. About 50% Carib Sea Sea Floor and about 50% hammered-up live rock. I started this because I did not want the fish to move all the substrate around. The hunks are from M&M size all the way up to Jawbreaker/Golf-Ball size.

It gets a nice layer of coralline on it and looks pretty good. It also houses a LOT of mini stars, worms and pods. I don't vacuum it and my NO3 is about 1 and PO4 about 0.

Sure some food ends up in there, but the worms and fauna take care of it. You would be suprised how the fish can "blow" and all the food comes back up for them to eat. Even the eels can get to it.

The triggers and puffers like to find the occasional worm or star out in the open as a real treat. At night, there are pods like crazy all over the place.

Randall_James · 08/17/2005, 08:48 PM

Just Dave, how large is that tank?
You did a spectacular job with the appeance of "Depth" The images give an illusion of "zones" with way different looks in each.

algaeguy · 08/17/2005, 10:28 PM

jda:

Interesting point that you bring up- one that always seems to be mentioned in conjunction with rubble bottom tanks:

The large amount of infauna and natural food being produced in the tank! This type of information is really useful. The more I hear from fellow hobbyists about the rubble bottom, the more I think that this may be a really cool way to run a tank!

Thanks again for your input!

Scott

just dave · 08/17/2005, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Randall_James
Just Dave, how large is that tank?
You did a spectacular job with the appeance of "Depth" The images give an illusion of "zones" with way different looks in each.

Thanks.
It's 48"x48"x24" so the depth part you are seeing may not be an illusion.

Don424 · 09/05/2005, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by algaeguy
Hi everyone:

I've been working with my new 225 reef, which is being modeled after a "rubble zone" area of a reef. Predominant corals are various Faviids, with a smattering of Pocillopora colonies.

Anyways, the tank has started out more or less barebottom, as I have wicked flow provided by 4 Tunze Streams and a Sequence Dart for the main return. Such flow has made a conventional sandbed a bit of a problem, so I have avoided one altogether. I like the look of sand (at least in a shallow depth), but I do like the ease of maintenance that barebottom affords (thanks to Bomber and others for inspiration!). Have thought of about 1/3-1/2 inch of coarse media, such as Carib-Sea "Aruba Puka" aragonite and perhaps crushed coral.

I have been using moderate-sized pieces (2"-4") and broken- up (1"-2" chunks) of Tonga slab to construct some "rubble piles", and I must say, it's coming out pretty decent...

What I am thinking of doing is to cover the entire bottom with small rubble pieces (with appropriate crevices and nooks). Maybe even some finer (1'2"- 3/4) smashed up pieces...all at a very shallow depth. I realize such a setup may not be for everyone, as much attention needs to be paid to detritus accumulation and overall husbandry...I consider myself a master of aquatic husbandry, so maintenance is not an issue. The areas in the tank where I have done this already are looking great, and the system has been chemically stable for the 4months that the system has been up and running. I'm really interested in my fellow reefer's thoughts on the aesthetics of such a bottom...

Fishes include lots of blennies and gobies, Halichoeres wrasses,a Centropyge angel, and a couple of Zebrasoma sp. tangs. Everyone seems to be doing fine.

Has anyone run, or contemplated running, such a system? If so, I'd love to hear comments and thoughts, or even see some pics if you have them.

As always- thanks to all in advance for your feedback.

Scott

Lillibirdy is right on with a good way to do it. Nice job on your tank Lillibirdy ............it looks great. What HOB are you using and what pumps are you using for the Reverse flow UGF?

Algaeguy,

Put a UGF plate in. Put your rock on it then the rubble. Use a high flow/reverse flow powerhead on each end tube. The high flow powerheads like the penguin/ reverse flow unit at i think 175 gph each will give you alot of flow to blow the detritus up into the water column. No detriitus........no nitrate

lillibirdy · 09/06/2005, 10:53 AM

Thanks Don, HOB is millenium 2000, My pumps are indeed the Penguin 660Reverse flow at 175 gph. I am hoping it helps with keeping detritus up in water column, sure seems to be helping. Not sure if it will be low enough for certain corals, but we shall see. Like Paul B's, I might have to allow it to develope some (much smaller) areas of anaerobic bacteria in the CC, but if so I spose I will have to stop stirring the skinny area behind my rocks maybe, that and get a clam, (yaaay). I like the out of the box thinking. And the idea that I can do this without spending TONS of money on equipment.

Don424 · 09/06/2005, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lillibirdy
Thanks Don, HOB is millenium 2000, My pumps are indeed the Penguin 660Reverse flow at 175 gph. I am hoping it helps with keeping detritus up in water column, sure seems to be helping. Not sure if it will be low enough for certain corals, but we shall see. Like Paul B's, I might have to allow it to develope some (much smaller) areas of anaerobic bacteria in the CC, but if so I spose I will have to stop stirring the skinny area behind my rocks maybe, that and get a clam, (yaaay). I like the out of the box thinking. And the idea that I can do this without spending TONS of money on equipment.

Lillibirdy

Yeah........those penguins are supposed to be good. Are they quiet? I'm going to my LFS with one of my MaxiJet pumps to see if the Penguin conversion fitting will fit on to it. Make sure you rinse the pre-filter sponges every 1-2 weeks or so. I'm going to guess that some of the anerobic bacteria will build up underneath your rock in the CC over time.
Should be low enough for corals .........down the road....I'd wait a bit. Keep an eye open for an ammonia/nitrite spike

lillibirdy · 09/06/2005, 12:04 PM

I guess it's quiet, all I hear is my dang skimmer noise, (Remora pro sucking noise, but that is much better since I added a bit of folded filter material over the left side). I do rinse my sponges every week with my water changes, and don't even see that much stuff on them. My skimmer pulls out lotsa wet green yuk too. So far so good!

Whaledriver · 09/06/2005, 12:20 PM

I saw this thread today and thought I would toss out a few ideas I was thinking of for a tank in the future.
I would use a undergravel filter plate and maybe open up the grateing a little. Put a valve on your sequance so that you can put all the flow through the undergravel filter for an hour a day. During the rest of the day you can have a maintenance flow as needed. What this will do is keep anything from collecting at all and it should toss all the pods and mysis into the water creating a nice feeding opertunity for the fish.
I would stick with rocks larger than an inch with plenty of nooks and cranys for life to hide in
With this much disturbance in the rock level on a daily basis you should not have any trouble with detritus buildup. It should also let the skimmer keep up with the silt buildup

NeilPearson · 09/06/2005, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cduran02
Naw....horse shoe crabs eat small crustaceans (pods) and worms.

... in other words - microfauna

Don424 · 09/06/2005, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lillibirdy
I guess it's quiet, all I hear is my dang skimmer noise, (Remora pro sucking noise, but that is much better since I added a bit of folded filter material over the left side). I do rinse my sponges every week with my water changes, and don't even see that much stuff on them. My skimmer pulls out lotsa wet green yuk too. So far so good!

Lillibirdy

Yeah.....those Remora's can make a racket from what I've read over the past year but I'm sure it will calm down as this new set up matures in the tank. By the way.......what/who's undergravel filter do you use? I was going with a Perfecto but they have ridgespeaks & valley's) in them........I'd prefer all flat but can't seem to find one that doesn't bend do to the weight of my live rock. Any suggestions?.............and keep me up to date on your tank and if you get any new pictures...chiao

Don424 · 09/06/2005, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Whaledriver
I saw this thread today and thought I would toss out a few ideas I was thinking of for a tank in the future.
I would use a undergravel filter plate and maybe open up the grateing a little. Put a valve on your sequance so that you can put all the flow through the undergravel filter for an hour a day. During the rest of the day you can have a maintenance flow as needed. What this will do is keep anything from collecting at all and it should toss all the pods and mysis into the water creating a nice feeding opertunity for the fish.
I would stick with rocks larger than an inch with plenty of nooks and cranys for life to hide in
With this much disturbance in the rock level on a daily basis you should not have any trouble with detritus buildup. It should also let the skimmer keep up with the silt buildup

Interesting idea........might also promote nitrate reduction to if you're suggesting having the reverse flow on for only an hour a day. Tha t might promote a slow construction of anerobic bacteria under the plate or the bottom layer of the CC...............and maintenance flow would keep the rest of the crud moving around so the skimmer or HOB filter could catch it.

Anybody else out there have a spin on Whaledrivers idea?

Don424 · 09/06/2005, 04:24 PM

Sorry Whaledriver..........I mean the bottom layer of the rubble......not CC

algaeguy · 09/06/2005, 09:05 PM

Don and Whaledriver:

Thanks again for the sweet ideas...Who would have thought that the humble UG filter can be a valuable ally in a 21st centrury setup? It's cool to see this kind of creative thinking!

What I've been doing so far is using large pieces of Tonga slab rock placed directly on the bottom, with pieces loosely stacked on top of others, yet leaving plenty of "void" space in between. With my Streams blasting a cycle of 30%-100% throughout the tank, and the Sequence doing its magic, I have only seen detritus accumulation in one easy-to-siphon area. Surprisingly(?), I have seen no detectible nitrate or phosphate thus far.

I think if I were doing it over again, I'd try the UGF plate idea. This may be a fantastic way to maintain such alternative systems for the long run.

Keep the ideas coming!

Scott

Whaledriver · 09/07/2005, 09:19 AM

This idea would also let you set up the tank and not have to do much maintenance. Like the old fresh water days you could put a automatic feeder on it and just check it once a week to clean the skimmer.

I think a Manderin would love hunting the rubble for food all day.

lillibirdy · 09/07/2005, 11:08 AM

Don, how will the the bottom of layer of rubble grow anaerobic bacteria? I thought it wasn't condensed enough to shut out oxygen? In my own tank, I think the areas under my rubble that is CC will surely grow some, and if I stop stirring CC behind rocks.

But won't the actual rubble layer itself get to much oxygen to allow that type of oxygen starved bacteria? Maybe I am confused again, wouldn't surprise me none...lol.

08/08/2005, 09:57 PM	#51
algaeguy Over-The-Top- Reef Geek Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 809	Tunguska: I'm fascinated by your "mixed grain" sand/rubble zone. You mention what I feel is one of the biggest benefits of this type of setup- the biodiveristy and and potential for alternative food sources being developed within the system itself...sort of an in-tank refugium. Sandbeds are still a controversial topic, but it's very nice to hear success stories from hobbyists using a variety of approaches. Thanks again for your input! Scott __________________ "Tear down the wall!" Current Tank Info: 14,000+ gallons of saltwater!

08/09/2005, 02:56 AM	#52
Paul B Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Long Island NY Posts: 15,549	Lillibirdi, that was last year, the slugs lived about 18 monthes which is a lot longer then they are supposed to live. I did sell most of them to a researcher in Conn. Many more I traded to a LFS. I used them like credit cards. I don't think there are any more of them in my reef. They reproduced a few times then ran out of steam. Paul __________________ I used to get shocked when I put my hand in my tank. Then the electric eel went dead. Current Tank Info: 100 gal reef set up in 1971

08/13/2005, 04:36 PM	#56
algaeguy Over-The-Top- Reef Geek Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 809	Actually, Dave- it is very similar... How 'bout some pics? Scott __________________ "Tear down the wall!" Current Tank Info: 14,000+ gallons of saltwater!

08/14/2005, 10:38 PM	#59
algaeguy Over-The-Top- Reef Geek Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 809	Really nice stuff...That's a true "rubble bottom" over a "BB" . I like the idea...Very unique. Thanks for the pics! Scott __________________ "Tear down the wall!" Current Tank Info: 14,000+ gallons of saltwater!

08/17/2005, 08:48 PM	#61
Randall_James Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 6,727	Just Dave, how large is that tank? You did a spectacular job with the appeance of "Depth" The images give an illusion of "zones" with way different looks in each. __________________ "It's a dog eat dog world and I feel like I am wearing milkbone underwear"

08/09/2005, 10:49 AM	#53
Tunguska Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Tuscaloosa Posts: 288	algaeguy: Yes, it is basically an in-tank reffugium. Initially, I added the larger rubble in "pod piles" in anticipation of adding a mandarin -- I got a scooter blenny about a month ago. It is my only fish. Eventually, I filled up the hidden spots behind rocks with all the rubble I added, so I just started dropping it where ever. This led to my mixed grain rubble DSB.

08/12/2005, 10:43 PM	#55
just dave 11th in '11 Join Date: May 2004 Location: Cordova, TN Posts: 4,394	While not exactly what you are going for I have my tanks viewable bottom area covered with rock and where it meets the glass it is rubble. Works great so far.

08/13/2005, 10:42 PM	#57
just dave 11th in '11 Join Date: May 2004 Location: Cordova, TN Posts: 4,394

08/14/2005, 12:36 AM	#58
lillibirdy Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Oregon Posts: 521	Dang that's a purty tank! I am still trying to figure out how you guys can get all the different corals so close without them trying to sting each other...

08/17/2005, 12:14 PM	#60
jda Dogmatic Dinosaur Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 6,256	Saw this thread kinda late, but I use a rubble bottom on my FOWLR. About 50% Carib Sea Sea Floor and about 50% hammered-up live rock. I started this because I did not want the fish to move all the substrate around. The hunks are from M&M size all the way up to Jawbreaker/Golf-Ball size. It gets a nice layer of coralline on it and looks pretty good. It also houses a LOT of mini stars, worms and pods. I don't vacuum it and my NO3 is about 1 and PO4 about 0. Sure some food ends up in there, but the worms and fauna take care of it. You would be suprised how the fish can "blow" and all the food comes back up for them to eat. Even the eels can get to it. The triggers and puffers like to find the occasional worm or star out in the open as a real treat. At night, there are pods like crazy all over the place.

08/17/2005, 10:28 PM	#62
algaeguy Over-The-Top- Reef Geek Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 809	jda: Interesting point that you bring up- one that always seems to be mentioned in conjunction with rubble bottom tanks: The large amount of infauna and natural food being produced in the tank! This type of information is really useful. The more I hear from fellow hobbyists about the rubble bottom, the more I think that this may be a really cool way to run a tank! Thanks again for your input! Scott __________________ "Tear down the wall!" Current Tank Info: 14,000+ gallons of saltwater!

09/06/2005, 10:53 AM	#65
lillibirdy Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Oregon Posts: 521	Thanks Don, HOB is millenium 2000, My pumps are indeed the Penguin 660Reverse flow at 175 gph. I am hoping it helps with keeping detritus up in water column, sure seems to be helping. Not sure if it will be low enough for certain corals, but we shall see. Like Paul B's, I might have to allow it to develope some (much smaller) areas of anaerobic bacteria in the CC, but if so I spose I will have to stop stirring the skinny area behind my rocks maybe, that and get a clam, (yaaay). I like the out of the box thinking. And the idea that I can do this without spending TONS of money on equipment.

09/06/2005, 12:04 PM	#67
lillibirdy Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Oregon Posts: 521	I guess it's quiet, all I hear is my dang skimmer noise, (Remora pro sucking noise, but that is much better since I added a bit of folded filter material over the left side). I do rinse my sponges every week with my water changes, and don't even see that much stuff on them. My skimmer pulls out lotsa wet green yuk too. So far so good!

09/06/2005, 12:20 PM	#68
Whaledriver Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 1,811	I saw this thread today and thought I would toss out a few ideas I was thinking of for a tank in the future. I would use a undergravel filter plate and maybe open up the grateing a little. Put a valve on your sequance so that you can put all the flow through the undergravel filter for an hour a day. During the rest of the day you can have a maintenance flow as needed. What this will do is keep anything from collecting at all and it should toss all the pods and mysis into the water creating a nice feeding opertunity for the fish. I would stick with rocks larger than an inch with plenty of nooks and cranys for life to hide in With this much disturbance in the rock level on a daily basis you should not have any trouble with detritus buildup. It should also let the skimmer keep up with the silt buildup

09/06/2005, 04:24 PM	#72
Don424 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Hillsborough, NJ Posts: 365	Sorry Whaledriver..........I mean the bottom layer of the rubble......not CC

09/06/2005, 09:05 PM	#73
algaeguy Over-The-Top- Reef Geek Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 809	Don and Whaledriver: Thanks again for the sweet ideas...Who would have thought that the humble UG filter can be a valuable ally in a 21st centrury setup? It's cool to see this kind of creative thinking! What I've been doing so far is using large pieces of Tonga slab rock placed directly on the bottom, with pieces loosely stacked on top of others, yet leaving plenty of "void" space in between. With my Streams blasting a cycle of 30%-100% throughout the tank, and the Sequence doing its magic, I have only seen detritus accumulation in one easy-to-siphon area. Surprisingly(?), I have seen no detectible nitrate or phosphate thus far. I think if I were doing it over again, I'd try the UGF plate idea. This may be a fantastic way to maintain such alternative systems for the long run. Keep the ideas coming! Scott __________________ "Tear down the wall!" Current Tank Info: 14,000+ gallons of saltwater!

09/07/2005, 09:19 AM	#74
Whaledriver Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 1,811	This idea would also let you set up the tank and not have to do much maintenance. Like the old fresh water days you could put a automatic feeder on it and just check it once a week to clean the skimmer. I think a Manderin would love hunting the rubble for food all day.

09/07/2005, 11:08 AM	#75
lillibirdy Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Oregon Posts: 521	Don, how will the the bottom of layer of rubble grow anaerobic bacteria? I thought it wasn't condensed enough to shut out oxygen? In my own tank, I think the areas under my rubble that is CC will surely grow some, and if I stop stirring CC behind rocks. But won't the actual rubble layer itself get to much oxygen to allow that type of oxygen starved bacteria? Maybe I am confused again, wouldn't surprise me none...lol.