DIY- "Pins" method of gluing acrylic. - Page 2

melev · 04/09/2003, 12:19 AM

Sounds like you could run a sheet of foil through a shredder to get the strips cut quickly. Do you glue all of it, or only where the foil isn't, then pull the strips out and fill in those zones?

H20ENG · 04/09/2003, 06:03 PM

Seems the foil would be too flimsy and cover too much area. Maybe folded its better.
I use copper wire. Use solid if you want a certain gauge, or untwist some stranded and twist some to your own thickness preference. I twist a little loop in the end so its easy to grab and pull out.
$0.02
Chris

oneputt67 · 04/09/2003, 07:22 PM

thank you all for your help. i successfully joined by sides and baffle this morning. no bubbles and hardly noticeable "oozing". i tested the tin foil version but covers too much area. had much better success with the pins.

now ready to attach the back. i plan to continue to use the pins method since i have had success with it. however, i don't think i will be able to use this method for the baffle. i am constructing a rectangular reactor so i have no space to get my hands in there when attaching the back. any suggestions on how i can get this done? should i join the sides to the back first with the pins method? then just use the capillary method in attaching the baffle to the back panel.

thanks again for your help.

ray

H20ENG · 04/09/2003, 07:25 PM

You can glue an internal baffle without any pins. The glue will still wick into the joint and soften the acrylic. When doing this without pins, I will usually keep running the needle along the joint and dispensing the glue so it can have a longer contact time before drying up.
HTH,
Chris

Zephrant · 04/09/2003, 10:49 PM

Chris- I knew I had read about that trick here someplace, thanks!

Neat idea on the Al foil- I bet the sheet doesn't roll on it like it does the pins. Maybe I'll take some solid core #22 wire or so, and hammer it flat a little. hmmm....

When I do inside baffles, I put them in after all four sides are done, but before I put on the top and bottom. That way I can trail fit them. I have started using Weldon #3 to put them it. I still space them up a touch with a pin at each end, wick it in, and drop it. It still makes a clearer joint then what I get when I just wick it in from the sides. It seams like I always get bubbles that way.

Zeph

melev · 04/09/2003, 11:42 PM

I too like that idea about using copper wire with a loop to tug them out!

We just had our (DFWMAS) club meeting at my house this evening, and I held an acrylics demonstration to show how it can be cut, routed, sanded, buffed and bent for the members. I threw together a very simple specimen container like the LFS use to hang on the tanks. Our president commented that it looked like it could be the outer box of an overflow system.

I tried to keep it moving at a good pace so no-one would get too bored, and answered questions to give people better ideas of what they could do, and what it might cost.

Later, several came up to me to let me know they'd be ordering sumps.

No problem - I think it is fun to make this stuff.

I"m going to make a hanger bracket for the SCWD unit, and if it comes out nicely, post a picture for others to copy. Since 3iQ doesn't supply any.

C_Kritter · 04/13/2003, 09:58 PM

ok, i messed up in joining my front, back and side panels. when i dry fit the flange to the rectangular reactor, i noticed a gap about 1/32 of an inch. it is an area where i can no longer scrape. can i continue using Weld-On #4 to join the flange or should i use Weld-On #16 instead? Or, should i use #4 to adhere the flange to the body then bead on #16 to create a seal? thanks for any input.

ramon

Zephrant · 04/13/2003, 11:03 PM

M- Sounds great! I've been considering doing the same, but our reef club is pretty small at the moment.

CK- Can you get a clamp on it to compress it together a little? (Don't torque it very much, just a little.)

If not, then I'd try a bead of #16, then mate them together and let them dry. Add another bead of #16 on both sides of the problem area, but keep it a VERY small bead, or it will pull away and leave air bubbles behind it.

Drop a picture up here if you can-

Zeph

C_Kritter · 04/14/2003, 10:09 PM

ok, i used WO #4 and clamped them together. seem to have joined nicely (without bubbles) but i still feel a little uneasy about the joint. can i still use WO #16 to make the joint stronger? should i bead the WO #16 in the corner then run my finger through like when applying silicone? thanks.

ramon

Zephrant · 04/14/2003, 11:19 PM

If the joint is clear, you don't need to add anything else. Let it dry for about a week though, just to make sure.

If you are paranoid, you can glue in a little triangular gusset in that joint. Just cut one on the table saw, put it in place, and wick in the #4 on both sides. Hold it in place for a few minutes by hand, and you are done.

Zeph

williamrandel · 04/15/2003, 11:16 AM

Has anyone ever tried using polycarbonate? i was just wondering because i know that it is "unbreakable" . it has a few bad qualities in that it scratches, but will withstand even a gunshot without breaking. i don't think it would make a good tank but you might could use it for a sump. i just don't know if you can glue it?

Zephrant · 04/15/2003, 11:39 PM

Sorry- No experience there. Polycarbonate is more flexible, which would mean more bowing from the same thickness.

Zeph

qwuintus · 04/16/2003, 12:30 AM

Quote:

How come the end of the bottom piece sticks out a bit?

Cheapreef · 04/16/2003, 01:21 AM

Easier to glue, and you router it flush after.

Clinton

melev · 07/17/2003, 09:23 PM

Zephrant,

I'm working on another sump this evening, using Glad Baggie twist ties that have been stripped to allow me to insert bare wire in the joint. So far, 3 sides are glued.

I decided to review this thread since I've never used pins before, and I noticed you don't even have them completely inserted to support the entire material in your pictures. They look like they are in about 1/16th or 1/8th of an inch. I didn't notice that before.

When I was preparing my joint to be glued, I immediately realized if the wire went too far out the other side (inside the sump), the glue would wick along the wire, so I had it even with the inner edge. I'm using 1/4" acrylic, and the wire is 1/4" in the joint. Hope that makes sense.

I noticed you talked about leaving it for four hours to bond, but my work area doesn't really work that well for me. I usually have one side I work from and need to rotate my project to put that next joint in front of me.

I can't wait to see how clear these seams will be after this!

toddflash · 07/17/2003, 10:45 PM

Thanks for all the great info! I just started putting together my own DIY sump.

I had purchased two 3/8" x 4' x 8' sheets of extruded acrylic. The guy at the plastic shop said it would work fine for a sump but that cast would be better if making an actual tank.

Anyways, I got the sides and the back side of the sump all joined up. It's looking pretty good, sorry I don't have any pictures yet...

Once again, thanks for the info!

Todd

melev · 07/17/2003, 10:55 PM

I'm getting some pretty large filled bubbles inside the container after removing the wire. Should I be removing these somehow, or just let them exist?

Zephrant · 07/17/2003, 11:29 PM

Todd- Your welcome!

Melev- There is a trick on how far to insert them. All the way though, and they wick glue on to the base piece where it can puddle. 1/2 way though, and the glue wicks around the pin and continues down the joint as you glue. It makes it easier to not get bubbles right at the pin.

With 1/4" material, it's hard to not get them all the way though, but with 3/8" or 1/2" it is pretty simple.

I try to glue up both sides at once, then leave it on the end of the table overnight. I've read that others only wait an hour, but I had problems once doing that, so don't risk it anymore. Rotating the project to work on the next side is fine, just be careful and be fast. Disturbing the glue joint after it has set weakens it.

I have had some luck using another pin to poke at the bubbles to get them out. When you pull the pins the big one ooze out, but where they were did not get enough solvent so it sometimes makes a network of small bubbles. Not bad structurally, but unsightly.

If you get big bubbles after it sets, then you did not shim enough or even enough, or your joints were not cut perfectly straight. I know you have made lots of sumps, but it is a long learning experience to get them perfect. That is why I still don't make display tanks, only sumps. A bubble or two in a sump is not a problem, in a display tank it is unsightly.

Zeph

Zephrant · 07/18/2003, 12:05 AM

Todd- Your welcome!

Melev- There is a trick on how far to insert them. All the way though, and they wick glue on to the base piece where it can puddle. 1/2 way though, and the glue wicks around the pin and continues down the joint as you glue. It makes it easier to not get bubbles right at the pin.

With 1/4" material, it's hard to not get them all the way though, but with 3/8" or 1/2" it is pretty simple.

I try to glue up both sides at once, then leave it on the end of the table overnight. I've read that others only wait an hour, but I had problems once doing that, so don't risk it anymore. Rotating the project to work on the next side is fine, just be careful and be fast. Disturbing the glue joint after it has set weakens it.

I have had some luck using another pin to poke at the bubbles to get them out. When you pull the pins the big one ooze out, but where they were did not get enough solvent so it sometimes makes a network of small bubbles. Not bad structurally, but unsightly.

If you get big bubbles after it sets, then you did not shim enough or even enough, or your joints were not cut perfectly straight. I know you have made lots of sumps, but it is a long learning experience to get them perfect. That is why I still don't make display tanks, only sumps. A bubble or two in a sump is not a problem, in a display tank it is unsightly.

Zeph

melev · 07/18/2003, 01:44 AM

Glad you are up, but I don't know if you will see this now (while the glue is soft).... I've taken a few pictures to show you what I mean.

melev · 07/18/2003, 01:45 AM

another

melev · 07/18/2003, 01:46 AM

Ahem.... I said 'another'!

melev · 07/18/2003, 01:47 AM

and another

melev · 07/18/2003, 01:49 AM

and finally, this inner seam. As you can see, it pooled up a lot more than expected. Is this because the wire is too thick, or because I'm using #3 instead of #4?

Do I attempt to cut these off with a straight edged razorblade? Or just call it "good enough".... looks kinda tacky to me, but once it is filled with water, they won't be that visible.

I love testing new techniques on someone else's sump!

geshields · 07/18/2003, 07:19 AM

Melev,

Those are not bubbles you are talking about. The seam looks good. The problem you are having is you are pulling the pins out too fast which will cause the top piece to come down quickly on the bottom and shoot glue out of the seam. In essence, you are shooting weld-on 16 out of the joint(weld-on 3 mixed with some of the dissolved acrylic from the joint)

Greg

04/09/2003, 07:22 PM	#28
oneputt67 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: California Posts: 89	thank you all for your help. i successfully joined by sides and baffle this morning. no bubbles and hardly noticeable "oozing". i tested the tin foil version but covers too much area. had much better success with the pins. now ready to attach the back. i plan to continue to use the pins method since i have had success with it. however, i don't think i will be able to use this method for the baffle. i am constructing a rectangular reactor so i have no space to get my hands in there when attaching the back. any suggestions on how i can get this done? should i join the sides to the back first with the pins method? then just use the capillary method in attaching the baffle to the back panel. thanks again for your help. ray __________________ You cannot be serious! - J. McEnroe Current Tank Info: 60G

04/15/2003, 11:16 AM	#36
williamrandel Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Birmingham,AL Posts: 297	Polycarbonate Has anyone ever tried using polycarbonate? i was just wondering because i know that it is "unbreakable" . it has a few bad qualities in that it scratches, but will withstand even a gunshot without breaking. i don't think it would make a good tank but you might could use it for a sump. i just don't know if you can glue it?

04/09/2003, 12:19 AM	#26
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Sounds like you could run a sheet of foil through a shredder to get the strips cut quickly. Do you glue all of it, or only where the foil isn't, then pull the strips out and fill in those zones?

04/09/2003, 06:03 PM	#27
H20ENG Pro builder/aquarist hack Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: NORCAL (Vacaville, CA) Posts: 5,125	Seems the foil would be too flimsy and cover too much area. Maybe folded its better. I use copper wire. Use solid if you want a certain gauge, or untwist some stranded and twist some to your own thickness preference. I twist a little loop in the end so its easy to grab and pull out. $0.02 Chris

04/09/2003, 07:25 PM	#29
H20ENG Pro builder/aquarist hack Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: NORCAL (Vacaville, CA) Posts: 5,125	You can glue an internal baffle without any pins. The glue will still wick into the joint and soften the acrylic. When doing this without pins, I will usually keep running the needle along the joint and dispensing the glue so it can have a longer contact time before drying up. HTH, Chris

04/09/2003, 10:49 PM	#30
Zephrant Premium Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 3,234	Chris- I knew I had read about that trick here someplace, thanks! Neat idea on the Al foil- I bet the sheet doesn't roll on it like it does the pins. Maybe I'll take some solid core #22 wire or so, and hammer it flat a little. hmmm.... When I do inside baffles, I put them in after all four sides are done, but before I put on the top and bottom. That way I can trail fit them. I have started using Weldon #3 to put them it. I still space them up a touch with a pin at each end, wick it in, and drop it. It still makes a clearer joint then what I get when I just wick it in from the sides. It seams like I always get bubbles that way. Zeph

04/09/2003, 11:42 PM	#31
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	I too like that idea about using copper wire with a loop to tug them out! We just had our (DFWMAS) club meeting at my house this evening, and I held an acrylics demonstration to show how it can be cut, routed, sanded, buffed and bent for the members. I threw together a very simple specimen container like the LFS use to hang on the tanks. Our president commented that it looked like it could be the outer box of an overflow system. I tried to keep it moving at a good pace so no-one would get too bored, and answered questions to give people better ideas of what they could do, and what it might cost. Later, several came up to me to let me know they'd be ordering sumps. No problem - I think it is fun to make this stuff. I"m going to make a hanger bracket for the SCWD unit, and if it comes out nicely, post a picture for others to copy. Since 3iQ doesn't supply any.

04/13/2003, 09:58 PM	#32
C_Kritter Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Duarte, CA Posts: 162	ok, i messed up in joining my front, back and side panels. when i dry fit the flange to the rectangular reactor, i noticed a gap about 1/32 of an inch. it is an area where i can no longer scrape. can i continue using Weld-On #4 to join the flange or should i use Weld-On #16 instead? Or, should i use #4 to adhere the flange to the body then bead on #16 to create a seal? thanks for any input. ramon

04/13/2003, 11:03 PM	#33
Zephrant Premium Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 3,234	M- Sounds great! I've been considering doing the same, but our reef club is pretty small at the moment. CK- Can you get a clamp on it to compress it together a little? (Don't torque it very much, just a little.) If not, then I'd try a bead of #16, then mate them together and let them dry. Add another bead of #16 on both sides of the problem area, but keep it a VERY small bead, or it will pull away and leave air bubbles behind it. Drop a picture up here if you can- Zeph

04/14/2003, 10:09 PM	#34
C_Kritter Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Duarte, CA Posts: 162	ok, i used WO #4 and clamped them together. seem to have joined nicely (without bubbles) but i still feel a little uneasy about the joint. can i still use WO #16 to make the joint stronger? should i bead the WO #16 in the corner then run my finger through like when applying silicone? thanks. ramon

04/14/2003, 11:19 PM	#35
Zephrant Premium Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 3,234	If the joint is clear, you don't need to add anything else. Let it dry for about a week though, just to make sure. If you are paranoid, you can glue in a little triangular gusset in that joint. Just cut one on the table saw, put it in place, and wick in the #4 on both sides. Hold it in place for a few minutes by hand, and you are done. Zeph

04/15/2003, 11:39 PM	#37
Zephrant Premium Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 3,234	Sorry- No experience there. Polycarbonate is more flexible, which would mean more bowing from the same thickness. Zeph

04/16/2003, 01:21 AM	#39
Cheapreef Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 1,076	Easier to glue, and you router it flush after. Clinton

07/17/2003, 09:23 PM	#40
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Zephrant, I'm working on another sump this evening, using Glad Baggie twist ties that have been stripped to allow me to insert bare wire in the joint. So far, 3 sides are glued. I decided to review this thread since I've never used pins before, and I noticed you don't even have them completely inserted to support the entire material in your pictures. They look like they are in about 1/16th or 1/8th of an inch. I didn't notice that before. When I was preparing my joint to be glued, I immediately realized if the wire went too far out the other side (inside the sump), the glue would wick along the wire, so I had it even with the inner edge. I'm using 1/4" acrylic, and the wire is 1/4" in the joint. Hope that makes sense. I noticed you talked about leaving it for four hours to bond, but my work area doesn't really work that well for me. I usually have one side I work from and need to rotate my project to put that next joint in front of me. I can't wait to see how clear these seams will be after this!

07/17/2003, 10:45 PM	#41
toddflash Registered Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 61	Thanks for all the great info! I just started putting together my own DIY sump. I had purchased two 3/8" x 4' x 8' sheets of extruded acrylic. The guy at the plastic shop said it would work fine for a sump but that cast would be better if making an actual tank. Anyways, I got the sides and the back side of the sump all joined up. It's looking pretty good, sorry I don't have any pictures yet... Once again, thanks for the info! Todd

07/17/2003, 10:55 PM	#42
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	I'm getting some pretty large filled bubbles inside the container after removing the wire. Should I be removing these somehow, or just let them exist?

07/17/2003, 11:29 PM	#43
Zephrant Premium Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 3,234	Todd- Your welcome! Melev- There is a trick on how far to insert them. All the way though, and they wick glue on to the base piece where it can puddle. 1/2 way though, and the glue wicks around the pin and continues down the joint as you glue. It makes it easier to not get bubbles right at the pin. With 1/4" material, it's hard to not get them all the way though, but with 3/8" or 1/2" it is pretty simple. I try to glue up both sides at once, then leave it on the end of the table overnight. I've read that others only wait an hour, but I had problems once doing that, so don't risk it anymore. Rotating the project to work on the next side is fine, just be careful and be fast. Disturbing the glue joint after it has set weakens it. I have had some luck using another pin to poke at the bubbles to get them out. When you pull the pins the big one ooze out, but where they were did not get enough solvent so it sometimes makes a network of small bubbles. Not bad structurally, but unsightly. If you get big bubbles after it sets, then you did not shim enough or even enough, or your joints were not cut perfectly straight. I know you have made lots of sumps, but it is a long learning experience to get them perfect. That is why I still don't make display tanks, only sumps. A bubble or two in a sump is not a problem, in a display tank it is unsightly. Zeph

07/18/2003, 12:05 AM	#44
Zephrant Premium Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 3,234	Todd- Your welcome! Melev- There is a trick on how far to insert them. All the way though, and they wick glue on to the base piece where it can puddle. 1/2 way though, and the glue wicks around the pin and continues down the joint as you glue. It makes it easier to not get bubbles right at the pin. With 1/4" material, it's hard to not get them all the way though, but with 3/8" or 1/2" it is pretty simple. I try to glue up both sides at once, then leave it on the end of the table overnight. I've read that others only wait an hour, but I had problems once doing that, so don't risk it anymore. Rotating the project to work on the next side is fine, just be careful and be fast. Disturbing the glue joint after it has set weakens it. I have had some luck using another pin to poke at the bubbles to get them out. When you pull the pins the big one ooze out, but where they were did not get enough solvent so it sometimes makes a network of small bubbles. Not bad structurally, but unsightly. If you get big bubbles after it sets, then you did not shim enough or even enough, or your joints were not cut perfectly straight. I know you have made lots of sumps, but it is a long learning experience to get them perfect. That is why I still don't make display tanks, only sumps. A bubble or two in a sump is not a problem, in a display tank it is unsightly. Zeph

07/18/2003, 01:44 AM	#45
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Glad you are up, but I don't know if you will see this now (while the glue is soft).... I've taken a few pictures to show you what I mean.

07/18/2003, 01:45 AM	#46
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	another

07/18/2003, 01:46 AM	#47
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Ahem.... I said 'another'!

07/18/2003, 01:47 AM	#48
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	and another

07/18/2003, 01:49 AM	#49
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	and finally, this inner seam. As you can see, it pooled up a lot more than expected. Is this because the wire is too thick, or because I'm using #3 instead of #4? Do I attempt to cut these off with a straight edged razorblade? Or just call it "good enough".... looks kinda tacky to me, but once it is filled with water, they won't be that visible. I love testing new techniques on someone else's sump!

07/18/2003, 07:19 AM	#50
geshields Premium Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 843	Melev, Those are not bubbles you are talking about. The seam looks good. The problem you are having is you are pulling the pins out too fast which will cause the top piece to come down quickly on the bottom and shoot glue out of the seam. In essence, you are shooting weld-on 16 out of the joint(weld-on 3 mixed with some of the dissolved acrylic from the joint) Greg