Reef Central Online Community

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > General Interest Forums > The Reef Chemistry Forum
Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

User Tag List

Reply
Thread Tools
Unread 11/07/2009, 01:48 PM   #26
Randy Holmes-Farley
Reef Chemist
 
Randy Holmes-Farley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Arlington, Massachusetts
Posts: 86,233
The idea being to remove organics that are coating the surface? That might be useful, but the 1 M NaOH may already do that by dissolving some of the surface.


__________________
Randy Holmes-Farley

Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef
Randy Holmes-Farley is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/07/2009, 05:46 PM   #27
redfishsc
Registered Member
 
redfishsc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 3,696
Where would an average dude like me find NaOH powder? That's really the only reason I ask, since both sodium and calcium hypochlorite are quite easy to find.


I think the downer with the hypochlorite would be the need to use a dechlorinator to bind up the chlorine. I forgot about that.


__________________
"The measure of a life is not its duration but its donation." Corrie Ten Boom

“The tyrant dies and his rule is over, the martyr dies and his rule begins” -- Søren Kierkegaard

Current Tank Info: ghetto grad school reef.....11g rimless tank, 36X9X9, lit by Cree and Rebels scobbled together. Stocked mostly with free stuff I got from panhandling my fellow reefers.
redfishsc is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/07/2009, 06:09 PM   #28
2thdeekay
Registered Member
 
2thdeekay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Boise, Idaho
Posts: 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by redfishsc View Post
Where would an average dude like me find NaOH powder? That's really the only reason I ask, since both sodium and calcium hypochlorite are quite easy to find.


I think the downer with the hypochlorite would be the need to use a dechlorinator to bind up the chlorine. I forgot about that.
A while back, there was some at Lowes or Home Depot (forgot which). The product is called "Roebic Crystal Drain Opener". It's 100% NaOH. http://www.roebic.com/bathroom.htm

You might also find a business that sells it for soapmaking, or for making biodiesel. Over here, there's a company called Technichem that manufactures industrial cleaners. They sell NaOH, or KOH by the gallon container. It's about $2/lb last I checked.


2thdeekay is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/07/2009, 08:10 PM   #29
Boomer
Bomb Technician (EOD)
 
Boomer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Duluth, Minnesota
Posts: 11,842
red

"pigmy" screws are very tiny screws, kind shaped like a tiny human. Hence the name "pigmy" and not pygmy.They are half torx and half flat-head. "water" screws are for under water use. They are a cross between hex-head and phillips. Are you stupid or what ??? You don't know anything do you I have a whole box full of both kinds. Need a picture or what !!!


AND
That post never said "screw" but shrew. I checked it 5 times. Randy change it, just to make me look bad ..........again



'bleach"
Nope red, bleach is a no go. You need something with OH- ions. Then there is lacing the GFO with bleach. But bleach does have a high pH



You need to be very careful with crystal drain types as some have flake aluminum added to them as a catalyst and at times Sodium nitrate added


__________________
If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Seawater Chemistry, Geology, ID Marine Life, Collecting Science Books, Explosives Technology, Audiophile



An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be.

Last edited by Boomer; 11/07/2009 at 08:22 PM.
Boomer is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/07/2009, 08:18 PM   #30
redfishsc
Registered Member
 
redfishsc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 3,696
that damn Randy, messing with everyone's posts



Thanks for the info on the bleach no-no. Last thing we need is a slow-release chlorine pellet for our tank.



As for the drain cleaner, wouldn't the aluminum (I thought it was magnesium?) flakes be obvious?


__________________
"The measure of a life is not its duration but its donation." Corrie Ten Boom

“The tyrant dies and his rule is over, the martyr dies and his rule begins” -- Søren Kierkegaard

Current Tank Info: ghetto grad school reef.....11g rimless tank, 36X9X9, lit by Cree and Rebels scobbled together. Stocked mostly with free stuff I got from panhandling my fellow reefers.
redfishsc is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/07/2009, 08:52 PM   #31
2thdeekay
Registered Member
 
2thdeekay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Boise, Idaho
Posts: 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by redfishsc View Post
As for the drain cleaner, wouldn't the aluminum (I thought it was magnesium?) flakes be obvious?
Be sure to only use a product labeled 100% NaOH, such as "Roebic Crystal Drain Opener". However, it's apparently not listed on the Lowe's website anymore...


2thdeekay is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/07/2009, 09:23 PM   #32
Boomer
Bomb Technician (EOD)
 
Boomer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Duluth, Minnesota
Posts: 11,842
Yes red the flakes are rather silver and rather obvious And I agree with "kay" last post, be sure it is that brand only unless you know for absolute sure.with some other brand. And it is Al and not Mg in drain cleaners. Mixing NaOH and magnesium is not a bright idea


__________________
If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Seawater Chemistry, Geology, ID Marine Life, Collecting Science Books, Explosives Technology, Audiophile



An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be.
Boomer is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/07/2009, 10:24 PM   #33
Ian55
Registered Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 37
could you not use Lye as your source for OH- ions...?


Ian55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/07/2009, 10:33 PM   #34
2thdeekay
Registered Member
 
2thdeekay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Boise, Idaho
Posts: 663
Yes, you can use Lye. It's just another term for NaOH or KOH.


2thdeekay is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/08/2009, 07:04 AM   #35
redfishsc
Registered Member
 
redfishsc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 3,696
I had forgotten all about lye. doh!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Boomer View Post
Mixing NaOH and magnesium is not a bright idea

But would then ensuing reaction be bright?


__________________
"The measure of a life is not its duration but its donation." Corrie Ten Boom

“The tyrant dies and his rule is over, the martyr dies and his rule begins” -- Søren Kierkegaard

Current Tank Info: ghetto grad school reef.....11g rimless tank, 36X9X9, lit by Cree and Rebels scobbled together. Stocked mostly with free stuff I got from panhandling my fellow reefers.
redfishsc is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/08/2009, 10:54 AM   #36
Boomer
Bomb Technician (EOD)
 
Boomer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Duluth, Minnesota
Posts: 11,842
Yes


__________________
If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Seawater Chemistry, Geology, ID Marine Life, Collecting Science Books, Explosives Technology, Audiophile



An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be.
Boomer is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/08/2009, 01:48 PM   #37
tatuvaaj
Pro-Protozoa
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Tampere, Finland
Posts: 1,228
Hey, this seems to work

I changed GFO this morning to regenerated version and PO4 has dropped from 0.07 to 0.03 ppm (typically I have *higher* PO4 at evening because of all the feeding during day).


__________________
Tatu Vaajalahti
Tampere, Finland

Current Tank Info: 240 gal + 50 gal sump,SDSB,LR,ATB Medium, 2x250W HQI + actinic,Balling
tatuvaaj is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/08/2009, 01:53 PM   #38
Randy Holmes-Farley
Reef Chemist
 
Randy Holmes-Farley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Arlington, Massachusetts
Posts: 86,233
Based on Cliffs observations here, I wonder how many folks might get some useful regeneration from vinegar?

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1735852


__________________
Randy Holmes-Farley

Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef
Randy Holmes-Farley is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/08/2009, 02:05 PM   #39
tatuvaaj
Pro-Protozoa
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Tampere, Finland
Posts: 1,228
Thanks for the link!

I don't have any visible CaCO3 deposits on the GFO yet it bubbles nicely with vinegar

I'll use vinegar bath as a first stage next time.


__________________
Tatu Vaajalahti
Tampere, Finland

Current Tank Info: 240 gal + 50 gal sump,SDSB,LR,ATB Medium, 2x250W HQI + actinic,Balling
tatuvaaj is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/08/2009, 10:28 PM   #40
Boomer
Bomb Technician (EOD)
 
Boomer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Duluth, Minnesota
Posts: 11,842
Cool thread guys


__________________
If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Seawater Chemistry, Geology, ID Marine Life, Collecting Science Books, Explosives Technology, Audiophile



An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be.
Boomer is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/09/2009, 06:57 AM   #41
redfishsc
Registered Member
 
redfishsc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 3,696
Wouldn't GFO bubble in vinegar anyhow since it is/contains hydroxide?


And agreed with Boomer. Major cool thread. Anytime we can regenerate something and get longer life out of it, it's good for our economy, and good for the environment (recycle!). You know how bad old GFO fills up our landfills


__________________
"The measure of a life is not its duration but its donation." Corrie Ten Boom

“The tyrant dies and his rule is over, the martyr dies and his rule begins” -- Søren Kierkegaard

Current Tank Info: ghetto grad school reef.....11g rimless tank, 36X9X9, lit by Cree and Rebels scobbled together. Stocked mostly with free stuff I got from panhandling my fellow reefers.
redfishsc is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/09/2009, 07:18 AM   #42
Randy Holmes-Farley
Reef Chemist
 
Randy Holmes-Farley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Arlington, Massachusetts
Posts: 86,233
No, hydroxide does not bubble in acid. Only carbonates (and bicarbonates) do.

OH- + H+ ---> H2O


CO3-- + 2H+ ---> H2CO3 ---> H2O + CO2


__________________
Randy Holmes-Farley

Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

Last edited by Randy Holmes-Farley; 11/09/2009 at 07:24 AM.
Randy Holmes-Farley is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/09/2009, 08:29 PM   #43
Origami2547
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by tatuvaaj View Post
Hey, this seems to work

I changed GFO this morning to regenerated version and PO4 has dropped from 0.07 to 0.03 ppm (typically I have *higher* PO4 at evening because of all the feeding during day).
Very nice. Sounds like it may have worked. I hope you'll follow up on this thread and let us know how much life you get out of this rejuvenated GFO.

Your opening post said you were processing 3 kg of spent GFO in 1M NaOH for a week's time. You didn't mention, however, what the approximate volume of NaOH solution you were using and I'm curious. Was it an equal volume? Just enough to cover the GFO? Twice the volume? More?

Randy: I just found this recently issued patent that's relevant to this process: http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/75...scription.html

Interesting, eh?


__________________
Tom

Current Tank Info: 210 SPS dominated tank w/ 350G in-system; GSA custom-12 Skimmer w/ 2 modified DC-6000's; running kalkstirrer & Ca Reactor; cabon & biopellets; ozone; Reeflo main pump.

Last edited by Origami2547; 11/09/2009 at 09:06 PM.
Origami2547 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/10/2009, 12:27 AM   #44
tatuvaaj
Pro-Protozoa
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Tampere, Finland
Posts: 1,228
Quote:
Originally Posted by Origami2547 View Post
Very nice. Sounds like it may have worked. I hope you'll follow up on this thread and let us know how much life you get out of this rejuvenated GFO.
I will

Quote:
Your opening post said you were processing 3 kg of spent GFO in 1M NaOH for a week's time. You didn't mention, however, what the approximate volume of NaOH solution you were using and I'm curious. Was it an equal volume? Just enough to cover the GFO? Twice the volume? More?
I think the original recommendation is 4:1 (1M NaOH:GFO). I didn't use that much because I didn't have a suitable container, in my case it was more like 2:1. I also think I used a bit more concentrated NaOH solution (I made it from 3M solution). Next time I'll try to be more methodical

Quote:
Randy: I just found this recently issued patent that's relevant to this process: http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/75...scription.html

Interesting, eh?
Sure is. Seems like this has been common knowledge, strange that it hasn't been discussed more often here.


__________________
Tatu Vaajalahti
Tampere, Finland

Current Tank Info: 240 gal + 50 gal sump,SDSB,LR,ATB Medium, 2x250W HQI + actinic,Balling
tatuvaaj is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/10/2009, 07:20 AM   #45
Randy Holmes-Farley
Reef Chemist
 
Randy Holmes-Farley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Arlington, Massachusetts
Posts: 86,233
At least the patent can't stop anyone from using sodium hydroxide as the claims all relate to fertilizers and potassium hydroxide.


__________________
Randy Holmes-Farley

Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef
Randy Holmes-Farley is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/13/2009, 11:59 PM   #46
schnitm
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 104
Been 25 years since I was chem major (briefly). Lately I've been recovering a system that had been let go. The chemistry is coming back. The nitrogen family is under control and now I'm working on phosphorus. An ATS did the job so far but I added some BRS HC GFO last week. This thread inspired me to recycle.

This afternoon I put about 400g of BRS HC GFO into 4 liters of roughly 1 molar NaOH. The GFO had spent 4 days taking 180 gallons from just shy of 1.0ppm phosphate to about 0.05ppm phosphate. (It's back above 0.25 within 6 hours already).

I stirred it about once an hour. A yellow (orange??) precipitate developed (iron(III) phosphate maybe??). The color settles. So I guess it's from solid molecules not ions (note that it's been a long time and memory fails me). I had rinsed the GFO with RODI until it ran clear before I started. After 4 hours I stirred and took a bit of fluid out. Diluted 100x, have the equip to do that. Measured about 1.0ppm with my Sailfert phosphate kit. A bit concerned that the PH of that even diluted 100x must be something like 11.

I drained off the solution abot two hours ago, rinsed and drained three times with about 4 liters of RODI, and mixed up 4 liters again. There's a bit of precipitate now, two hours later, but MUCH MUCH less than the first time.

I'll try to measure phosphates in the morning. Anyone know How much I need to worry about the PH when I run the test?


schnitm is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/14/2009, 03:46 AM   #47
tatuvaaj
Pro-Protozoa
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Tampere, Finland
Posts: 1,228
schnitm,

Great to have a chemist around!

As far as I know, reactive (ortho) phosphate kits acidify the sample so high pH might be a concern. Here in Finland "distilled" vinegar is PO4 free (it is actually made from acetic acid and water, 10% solution) so I used it to bring the pH down before testing (I'm out of sulfuric acid )

From Merck manual (the kit I use):
"The pH must be within the range 0 - 10. Adjust, if necessary, with sulfuric acid."


__________________
Tatu Vaajalahti
Tampere, Finland

Current Tank Info: 240 gal + 50 gal sump,SDSB,LR,ATB Medium, 2x250W HQI + actinic,Balling
tatuvaaj is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/14/2009, 10:12 AM   #48
Boomer
Bomb Technician (EOD)
 
Boomer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Duluth, Minnesota
Posts: 11,842
schnitm

A yellow (orange??) precipitate developed (iron(III) phosphate maybe??). The color settles. So I guess it's from solid molecules not ions (note that it's been a long time and memory fails me)

More than likely Iron Orthophosphate, FePO4. We call these "salts", the word you are looking for, instead of molecules Salt is an ionic compound formed by the ionic bond of + and - Ions.

Fe+++ + PO4--- ====> FePO4


__________________
If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Seawater Chemistry, Geology, ID Marine Life, Collecting Science Books, Explosives Technology, Audiophile



An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be.
Boomer is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/14/2009, 10:21 AM   #49
Randy Holmes-Farley
Reef Chemist
 
Randy Holmes-Farley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Arlington, Massachusetts
Posts: 86,233
And likely iron hydroxide too.


__________________
Randy Holmes-Farley

Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef
Randy Holmes-Farley is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11/14/2009, 01:07 PM   #50
schnitm
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 104
Thanks guys!

I guess what I was trying to get across was I think it's not just swapping phosphate for hydroxide. Looks like some iron's coming off too. And it looks like it's taking more of whatever salt off than it can hold in solution. Wonder how many times you can do this before the GFO just disolves?

Been a long time since I've done real chemistry. Funny thing...the university made me one of the directors of an immunology/genetics lab. All kinds of cool chemistry going on in there. The techs know better than to let me touch anything though! My real lab is full of computers.


schnitm is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:25 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2024 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright ©1999-2022
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.