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Old 01/08/2009, 03:58 PM   #51
vair
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Quote:
Originally posted by EnglishRebel
I don't know why you can't have Eurobracing with and external.
With a external, your back wall that the Eurobracing would attach to is now your weir, so you can't attach to that?


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Old 01/08/2009, 09:05 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by EnglishRebel
Bean
I have just ordered a 60Lx30Dx24H custom glass with an external 48L X 6D X 12H overflow on the back panel. I'm having the bottom of the overflow drilled for 6 1-1/2" bulkheads as I'm gong to have two sets of "PERFECT SILENT DRAIN SYSTEM". My question is twofold.[list=1][*]Will having two sets of BeanAnimal overflows in the same box create any problems? The tanks not built yet so I have the option to get them to divide the box in two.[*] I believe that you had 1" bulkheads and bushed the overflow pipes to fit. Was this done for a reason and will having the full 1-1/2" in my setup cause any problems?[/list=1] Thanks
What is your proposed flow? It is likely that (6) standpipes are not at all needed. Trying to balance multiple siphons may be tough. Multiple open channels should not be a problem, but each will add the possibility of the noise of falling water. When several objects make the same nearly silent sound, the additive nature of sound ensure that it is no longer silent

The 1.5" standpipe allows the open channel to flow more water quietly by allowing more air space and less change of gurgling or partial siphon. The larger the open channel diameter, the better.

The larger diameter Siphon and Emergency drains help to increase their capacity by lowering resistance.


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Old 01/08/2009, 09:10 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kshack
A little help please.
I have a 250 gal tank with the overflow box and two drains just like you have. Currently have Durso type and basement sump. Bought new house and am in the middle of moving the tank. I can drill another hole for the three return system, but here is my current situation/ problem. Tank will be in theater room, and sump will be in room next to tank (large storage room). Idea is for return to go down under the floor, lateral either 10 or 15 feet (prefer the 15 foot side of the room) and then back up through floor to the sump located on the floor. I was thinking I would come into the sump with an open "T" to allow air to escape, but not sure how big I need the drain pipe to be (currently have 1.5 inch spaflex).
Will it work? Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Ken
The siphon will work just fine once it gets started. It may be hard to purge all of the air from it though (it could in theory air lock). The open channel will not work as expected, as it relys on the free fall of water and air.

Now, that is not to say that your setup will not work quietly. The water will collect on the bottoms of the standpipes at the level of the sumps surface.

Sorry I don't have a better answer, but your setup is going to take some trial and error to get silent and a lot depends on your target flow rate.


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Old 01/08/2009, 09:14 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by oldsaltman
Bean, I had to tilt two of my drains slightly to handle space issues. (poor planing) Do you see any reason that that would matter?



I also had to scrape off some paint so I could see to level the overflow and get it siliconed in place.
You should be fine.

You are going to likely want to turn those valve handles around! They are going to be tough to manipulate in that position. You should also consider rigid support for ALL of the standpipes and CL pipes, as manipulating the valve can put tremendous torque on the bulkheads.


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Old 01/08/2009, 09:19 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by vair
Thanks for the informative thread, I'll be incorporating your design into my 300+G. build I have under way.

I was wondering what you and others think the advantages and disadvantages of a intank weir compared to behind tank weir?
I think behind tank 'looks' better as you do not take up tank space. I'm more concerned about strength. My build will be about a 8 foot wide tank with close to a coast to coast overflow.
Do you think a rear mounted overflow box would add strength like euro bracing would? With a intank weir you would have the strength of the weir and could still ad eruo bracing if you wanted. So I guess my question is about tank strength; intank or behind tank is there a difference in tank strength? Other comments regarding the good and bad of each would also be appreciated.


Thanks.
The overflow box will add strength, but bowing of the glass/acrylic could peel it from the back of the tank if it is not adhered well.

I like the external overflow better from an easthetic standpoint and display standpoint.

The eurobracing will get in the way of an "in tank" overlfow and make it hard to access.


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Old 01/08/2009, 10:04 PM   #56
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Glad to see someone with more holes in the back of the tank than mine has. Looks good!


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Old 01/09/2009, 05:32 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by BeanAnimal
What is your proposed flow? It is likely that (6) standpipes are not at all needed. Trying to balance multiple siphons may be tough. Multiple open channels should not be a problem, but each will add the possibility of the noise of falling water. When several objects make the same nearly silent sound, the additive nature of sound ensure that it is no longer silent

The 1.5" standpipe allows the open channel to flow more water quietly by allowing more air space and less change of gurgling or partial siphon. The larger the open channel diameter, the better.

The larger diameter Siphon and Emergency drains help to increase their capacity by lowering resistance.
Bean
My main return pump is about 1900gph @ 0' (but my tank is 10' above the pump and I will divert some flow to the refugium) so say around 1200gph from the overflow. If having two systems is not a good idea and being the anal retentive person that I am (I'm afraid of overflowing the tank and flooding my house) should I then use three of the six holes for your type of overflow and leave the other three as triple emergency overflows (each set at a slightly higher level)? Or possible as inlets for a CL (or would that starve my sump)?
Thanks


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Old 01/09/2009, 05:37 AM   #58
EnglishRebel
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Quote:
Originally posted by vair
With a external, your back wall that the Eurobracing would attach to is now your weir, so you can't attach to that?
Sorry but I don't see that. My tank is 60" long and the overflow is 48" long. However if the overflow were full length the cutout on the back panel would be less than 60" so there is room to attach it.
Anyway this is a little off topic. Sorry Bean.


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Click on my name for drop down list and select "Visit EnglishRebels Home Page" for my build thread.

Current Tank Info: 60x30x24 200G AO custom glass tank, basement equipment room, 30G and 55G Fuges, LifeReef sump & 30" skimmer.
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Old 01/09/2009, 06:15 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by EnglishRebel
Bean
My main return pump is about 1900gph @ 0' (but my tank is 10' above the pump and I will divert some flow to the refugium) so say around 1200gph from the overflow. If having two systems is not a good idea and being the anal retentive person that I am (I'm afraid of overflowing the tank and flooding my house) should I then use three of the six holes for your type of overflow and leave the other three as triple emergency overflows (each set at a slightly higher level)? Or possible as inlets for a CL (or would that starve my sump)?
Thanks
The core concept of this overflow is safety. Adding a 4th standpipe as a 2nd emergency would certainly not hurt, but the benefit is questionable. Without a doubt 5 and 6 are far past the point of diminishing returns.

You can use them as closed loop intakes, everything will balance. However, that means a significant increase in flow over the weir and a severe dilution of the surface skimmed water going to the sump. It also means certain cavitation when the return pumps are off (the closed loops will not get any water). In other words, it is not a good idea.


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Old 01/09/2009, 07:44 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by BeanAnimal
You should be fine.

You are going to likely want to turn those valve handles around! They are going to be tough to manipulate in that position. You should also consider rigid support for ALL of the standpipes and CL pipes, as manipulating the valve can put tremendous torque on the bulkheads.
Thanks, I am working on the supports now. I just have them turned around to have some space while I was leak testing.


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Old 01/09/2009, 11:39 AM   #61
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Stupid question here. I understand how this works when using an overflow inside the tank, but how does an external overflow work and still go coast to coast and skim the waters surface? Would this be a box that hangs over the tank and is really just a giant siphon flowing into the external overflow box? The external would be so you don't have to drill holes in the tank or what?


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Old 01/09/2009, 01:32 PM   #62
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Hey Bean,

Hope all is well. I just moved back to Pittsburgh, and was wondering how to get a hold of you? I noticed you no longer have the PM or Email option.

I had some questions regarding a backup power system. Do you attend the PMAS meetings? If so... I'm not in any rush, and could talk to you at the next meeting.

Thanks.

(sorry for the hijack)


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Old 01/09/2009, 02:59 PM   #63
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great thread. I learn something new about this hobby every month. amazing.

I created a thread about a year ago about helping to solve my micro bubble issue, and this is the answer. Reducing the air intake in the dursos. I can't believe the answer was right in front of me the whole time. Bean, I've dealt with you several times in the past, and admit, you like to be right and can be a real pain in the butt... but, you usually are right.

Forgive me if this is already buried somewhere, but how can I retrofit my existing tank which can't be pulled out from the wall or drilled for extra holes?

I have 4 dursos, 1.5" each, 2 in each compartment. I also have 2 more in a single compartment in the other room on a 75G. I'm wondering how I can retrofit this setup if possible? Even if it's only a version that helps reduce air intake?


main tank, you can see the two overflows, each has 1.5" durso I think.


refugium/angel fish tank in the dining room, has 2 dursos in this one, shared sump of course.

Edit:
I forgot to say, estimate 1000gph overflow rate in display, 400gph in fuge
*Also, I have a wavemaker, and I assume the siphon tube would only be 1 of the 4 tubes in my setup? So will the waves that splash from one box to the other really screw up the consistency of operation of this device?


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Old 01/09/2009, 04:18 PM   #64
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zactos, the wavemaker should not effect anything relating to the siphon tube. The "regular" durso drains will make up for any fluctuations in flow.

I have about 1000gph flowing through my "BeanAnimal" overflow setup and sometimes one of my Tunze streams creates a wave that adds a bit of "extra" water into the overflow box and the system handles it just fine. I have some pics of my setup that I need to post here.


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Old 01/09/2009, 05:39 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tswifty8
Hey Bean,

Hope all is well. I just moved back to Pittsburgh, and was wondering how to get a hold of you? I noticed you no longer have the PM or Email option.

I had some questions regarding a backup power system. Do you attend the PMAS meetings? If so... I'm not in any rush, and could talk to you at the next meeting.

Thanks.

(sorry for the hijack)
My PM box and email get inundated with questions. It makes it easier for me to answer in thread, than in private.

I have a gmail address... It is not hard to figure out

I rarely miss a meeting (I am on the board). Send me an email or stop by the meeting


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Old 01/09/2009, 05:40 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by bowhunt10
Stupid question here. I understand how this works when using an overflow inside the tank, but how does an external overflow work and still go coast to coast and skim the waters surface? Would this be a box that hangs over the tank and is really just a giant siphon flowing into the external overflow box? The external would be so you don't have to drill holes in the tank or what?
An external overflow will still work the same. Instead of holes in glass you have to have a weir cut along the top of the glass. Obviously for the water to go into the external box.

If you have the room behind the tank. I would go this route as the internal box takes up a lot of real estate.

If it is a decent sized box I would also use additional bracing in the form of gussets for the additional support.


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Old 01/09/2009, 05:41 PM   #67
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zachtos...

I am on the way out the door. I will attempt to answer your questions when I return this evening, or first thing in the morning.


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Old 01/09/2009, 05:59 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by BeanAnimal
My PM box and email get inundated with questions. It makes it easier for me to answer in thread, than in private.

I have a gmail address... It is not hard to figure out

I rarely miss a meeting (I am on the board). Send me an email or stop by the meeting
Gotcha... like I said I'm not in a big rush. My new tank isn't due to arrive until next Friday. So I'll just plan on talking to you at the meeting.




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Old 01/10/2009, 03:17 AM   #69
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my tank arrived today!!






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Old 01/13/2009, 10:34 AM   #70
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I haven't heard back yet for a design suggestion, but I have a few more questions to tack on. Must each pipe have it's OWN pipe leading to the sump? Or can they all be connected together before they proceed to the basement sump?

It is quite a chore to plumb them all seperately, I'm not sure how a shared pipe would affect the setup.

I'm considering doing this setup in my display which has 4 x 2" standpipes, but only 1000gph turnover. I think I could use 3 of the four and let the fourth be capped off or unused? Does this sound right or is there another use for it? They are in seperate compartments so I think I would keep the overflow emergency pipes in one compartment, and the durso and siphon in the other? Or should I put the siphon and a emergency in one, and the durso and emergency in the other?

There must be others consdiering this retrofit!


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Old 01/14/2009, 12:00 PM   #71
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Bean, I am having trouble getting my overflows to restart normally. My system appears to be the same as your design. It runs great, but upon restarting it continues to cycle or purge itself until I open the siphon valve back to fully open. Then the system will regulate itself and I can close it back off some. Nothing else seams to work. I have three compartments in my sump and one drain line runs into each one. I cut the return PVC to about 1” above the normal water level and then went back and drilled some holes to help the air escape the returns. Am I missing something? What can I try?


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Old 01/14/2009, 02:54 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by zachtos
I haven't heard back yet for a design suggestion, but I have a few more questions to tack on. Must each pipe have it's OWN pipe leading to the sump? Or can they all be connected together before they proceed to the basement sump?

It is quite a chore to plumb them all seperately, I'm not sure how a shared pipe would affect the setup.
i think that you're fine to combine the pipes into a single pipe AS LONG as the pipe's flow capability exceeds all three pipes combined.

In theory that means that 3 1" pipes can flow into a single 2" pipe and it would handle the flow.


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Old 01/14/2009, 04:19 PM   #73
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The more I think about it, the more I think that maybe you shouldn't...hmmm. Not sure.


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Old 01/14/2009, 07:08 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally posted by MSU Fan
The more I think about it, the more I think that maybe you shouldn't...hmmm. Not sure.
yeah, I need to be sure that I can combine all 3 pipes into one before I do all this work. It's very difficult for me to get back there as I can not get behind the tank as it is against the wall and the sump is 10' below that in the basement. I would think this would be a common retrofit question.


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Old 01/14/2009, 07:35 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally posted by zachtos
great thread. I learn something new about this hobby every month. amazing.

I created a thread about a year ago about helping to solve my micro bubble issue, and this is the answer. Reducing the air intake in the dursos. I can't believe the answer was right in front of me the whole time. Bean, I've dealt with you several times in the past, and admit, you like to be right and can be a real pain in the butt... but, you usually are right.
I am honestly not sure of that is a compliment or an insult.

Quote:
I have 4 dursos, 1.5" each, 2 in each compartment. I also have 2 more in a single compartment in the other room on a 75G. I'm wondering how I can retrofit this setup if possible? Even if it's only a version that helps reduce air intake?
It will be hard to balance the flow between two individual boxes (if not impossible). Your only option is a "herbie" style setup in each box, but that leaves you no fail-safe.


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