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Old 02/04/2009, 10:53 PM   #576
Sokretys
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haha thanks. where can i buy the right sryinge? ive got a 5ml elos syringe with a tip from my cats plastic nail applicator hahaa. baarely works.

is the time to pull the pins going to be different depending on the thickness of the acrylic? i pretty much use 1/4" for everything. ie no tanks. just sumps etc


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Old 02/04/2009, 11:29 PM   #577
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Check USplastics.com for applicator bottles. Or http://www.tapplastics.com/shop/category.php?bid=21&

The other question I'll leave for James. I tend to think solvent determines wait time, but perhaps the thicker material may change it somewhat.


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Old 02/05/2009, 06:25 AM   #578
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On overage, the wait time for thicker material is 30-45 seconds but depends on the material, temperature, and the solvent you're using. Placing solvent on a 25 foot long glue joint of 1" takes time so pull the wires as soon as the solvent is in place, sometimes as Melev said below. I usually have help for these joints so the solvent doesn't set prior to pulling wires.

Quote:
by melev
I usually work the long side first, then the opposite long side, then the ends. Based on how long it took to wick the glue in the joint, I pull the pins as necessary.

Shimming up ... is usually necessary.
For 1/4", I don't wait much at all, apply solvent, pull pins. 'Course the size of the wires also plays a part in this. Using 1/4", thicker wires require more solvent so you have a choice of either; pull quick for a cleaner joint but more runs, or let it soak so less runs but you get more ooze. This is one reason why I use thinner wires on thinner material

HTH,
James


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Old 02/05/2009, 06:50 AM   #579
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So if I understand this right, when you are gluing the bottom piece to the sides, you may pull the pins on one side before you apply the solvent to the other side... depending on timing. Is that right?

Dave



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Old 02/05/2009, 07:48 AM   #580
Acrylics
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Quote:
Originally posted by dbartkow
So if I understand this right, when you are gluing the bottom piece to the sides, you may pull the pins on one side before you apply the solvent to the other side... depending on timing. Is that right?
Sometimes it has to be done this way, as you say - due to the timing. One would prefer not to, but sometimes it has to be done.
Just make sure you don't pull the wires "ahead" of the solvent. Hope this makes sense

James


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Old 02/05/2009, 07:54 AM   #581
Sokretys
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Thanks a lot guys. As far as wire thickness...what would be ideal for 1/4" applications. I just checked, my needles are 34 guage or .22mm in diameter. and 1.5" long. thanks


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Old 02/05/2009, 08:18 AM   #582
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Quote:
Originally posted by Acrylics
Sometimes it has to be done this way, as you say - due to the timing. One would prefer not to, but sometimes it has to be done.
Just make sure you don't pull the wires "ahead" of the solvent. Hope this makes sense

James

James,
What do you mean by pulling the wires "ahead" of the solvent?

Thanks,
Dave


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Old 02/05/2009, 08:19 AM   #583
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.22mm=~.009", exactly what I use for 1/4" acrylic, not sure what anyone else uses but this size works well for me.

James


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Old 02/05/2009, 08:25 AM   #584
Acrylics
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Quote:
Originally posted by dbartkow
James,
What do you mean by pulling the wires "ahead" of the solvent?
Essentially, don't rush it. Solvent needs a little time to soak, pulling too soon often pushes the solvent out and leaves a dry joint as the solvent hasn't had time to react with the material yet. Just a timing thing. If you wait too long, the solvent starts to set.

James


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Old 02/05/2009, 12:44 PM   #585
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And when it sets, the two pieces are joined. You pull out the wire, and you still have a perfect hole that doesn't go away.

Practice, practice, practice.


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Old 02/09/2009, 10:48 PM   #586
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Quote:
Originally posted by melev
I used #4 for years but have recently switched to #3, and really love the better looking seams.
its hard as can be to find, but try out the mcbond, youll really like it, i threw a gallon of Wo4 away after using it for a few months...


As for using pins, i only use pins on 3/8" which is what i typically make sumps out of, displays get a different glue for me that doesnt need pins.

But i typically give it about 45 seconds on 3/8" acrylic with fairly thick pins, not sure exact size. 45 seconds gives me enough time to glue up to about 25 linear ft before pulling the beginning pins


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Old 02/10/2009, 01:45 AM   #587
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bchbum189. I still have like 5 unused bottle of Mcbond. I for some reason can't seem to get a good clean bond with MCbond. There are microbubbles at the edges of my glue job. I had no problems with weldon or local adhesive for some reason.


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Old 02/10/2009, 07:19 AM   #588
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thats weird, for me following same process(same finish cuts and pins) just giving slightly longer sit time gave me much more solid seams.

My home made stress test had me impressed as well much more than the wo3 or 4

If you would like to home make your own stress test its very easy, follow these 3 steps
1: cut 2 pieces to glue together
2: glue together
3:next day jump on it


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Old 02/10/2009, 07:23 AM   #589
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Quote:
Originally posted by bchbum189
its hard as can be to find, but try out the mcbond, youll really like it, i threw a gallon of Wo4 away after using it for a few months...


As for using pins, i only use pins on 3/8" which is what i typically make sumps out of, displays get a different glue for me that doesnt need pins.

But i typically give it about 45 seconds on 3/8" acrylic with fairly thick pins, not sure exact size. 45 seconds gives me enough time to glue up to about 25 linear ft before pulling the beginning pins
I am curious, why do you use a different glue for displays and what glue do you use?

Thanks,
Dave


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Old 02/10/2009, 07:26 AM   #590
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its not pleasant to use, but i use wo 40 for aquariums, aside from making your own glue this stuff gives flawless seams that are needed for displays. Its a thick 2 part that requires respirators and alot of ventilation.

For sumps its unnecessary and takes much longer to set up and cure.


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Old 02/10/2009, 08:02 AM   #591
Acrylics
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Quote:
Originally posted by bchbum189
its not pleasant to use, ... Its a thick 2 part that requires respirators and alot of ventilation.
Nah, ya just gotta learn to love it a little, ah the sweet smell of 40

I do some almost everyday, just do it before anyone else arrives in the morning. In my shop, the smell dissipates in an hour or two.

James


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Old 02/10/2009, 08:10 AM   #592
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I tried searching for wo 40, but couldn't find it. Anyone have a link to some?

Thanks,
Dave


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Old 02/10/2009, 08:52 AM   #593
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its alot like working with fiberglass if youve ever done that before, things like temp, humidity factor into the ratio
http://www.rplastics.com/weldon40.html


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Old 03/23/2009, 07:45 PM   #594
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I love reef central.

Where else can you get over 6 years of intelligent conversation on the "Pins" method of gluing acrylic?

Thanks for all the help!


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Old 11/23/2009, 11:28 AM   #595
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hey guys, hopefully some of you are still subscribed and can offer some advise. i just made my first box and remarkably it holds water.... a good thing, but i do have quite a few bubbles in the seams as welll as i had a big problem controling the flow of bonding agent as i was aplying it. i was just curious if pure methyline chloride is thinner the say weld on 3 or 4 and that is why it is coming out of my bottle so fast or if it is purely my incompotance.

another question for you all is on polishing the seams after they are trimmed off with router. i have a few different wheels and a white and a rouge compound and they will do a great job but only after i hit it with 600grit sand paper. do you guys sand the exposed ends before polishing them or just hit it with the buffer right away? or with a flame? haven't tried the flame yet... but wasnt sure if it was the correct thing to do on a structural seam.

one more: can anyone give me their recipe for their non weld on bonding agent? all my supplier carries is methyline chloride and weld on 16 and the meth seems to be very fast and i am hoping that is why there is bubbles and excess runoff on my project. so if anyone has a measured mix that they often use with success that would be great.

ps: thread was a great read as was marcs website.... i feel so much smarter now... thanks for all the info so far.

Thanks

Nick



Last edited by nrosdal; 11/23/2009 at 11:35 AM. Reason: i cant spell :)
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Old 11/23/2009, 03:58 PM   #596
Acrylics
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nrosdal View Post
hey guys, hopefully some of you are still subscribed and can offer some advise. i just made my first box and remarkably it holds water.... a good thing, but i do have quite a few bubbles in the seams as welll as i had a big problem controling the flow of bonding agent as i was aplying it. i was just curious if pure methyline chloride is thinner the say weld on 3 or 4 and that is why it is coming out of my bottle so fast or if it is purely my incompotance.
No, and not incompetence, just inexperience To learn bottle & solvent control; hold the half-filled solvent bottle upright and gently squeeze the bottle until the solvent gets near the top. While still gently squeezing the bottle, turn it upside-down and lightly loosen the bottle, then gently squeeze to squirt some out, then loosen, etc. Repeat as needed to learn solvent control, hope this makes sense
Straight MC is the same viscosity as Weld-On 3 & 4 so that won't change.

Quote:
another question for you all is on polishing the seams after they are trimmed off with router. i have a few different wheels and a white and a rouge compound and they will do a great job but only after i hit it with 600grit sand paper. do you guys sand the exposed ends before polishing them or just hit it with the buffer right away? or with a flame? haven't tried the flame yet... but wasnt sure if it was the correct thing to do on a structural seam.
You can use a flame but tends to stress the material out. Sanding to 600 or so prior to buffing is normal, not doing this causes the material to heat up too much - inducing stress on the material and potential scarring from overheating the acrylic

Quote:
one more: can anyone give me their recipe for their non weld on bonding agent? all my supplier carries is methyline chloride and weld on 16 and the meth seems to be very fast and i am hoping that is why there is bubbles and excess runoff on my project. so if anyone has a measured mix that they often use with success that would be great.
Get some acetic acid (straight stuff, not photgraphic grade) and mix about 8-10% acid into straight methylene chloride. At this point you will have something equivalent to MC Bond by PolySciences and what Weld-On 5 was before they took it off the market.
BTW, this solution is far superior to Weld-On 3 & 4 IMO for practical applications. The acid will help the solvent flow in the joint much better and slow the reaction down. Don't go much beyond a 10% solution though - the joints will start to look grainy if you do.

HTH,
James


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Old 11/23/2009, 06:19 PM   #597
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ahh, the squeeze thing makes perfect sense. i have been just turning the bottle over and getting very sad when i have it dripping out of the tip before i have it in place and then making nice puddles for me along the way.

when sanding do you go from sanding with 600 to whte buffing compound too red??

thanks james, your posts have been invaluable in helping to understand how to get this to work for me.


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Old 12/23/2009, 02:23 PM   #598
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27x10x18 (1/4 acrylic) What size top w/cutouts?

I'm building my first sump - Great thread & info BTW

It will be made out of 1/4 inch material 18x27x10 (WxLxH) 3 section (skimmer - return - fuge). I'm wondering how small I can get away with on the top cutout flanges - 1 inch or do I have to go with 2 inch?

Using WO-4 as the bonding agent

Is it wrong to "plan" on running a bead of WO-16 on the inside of all the main joints or should I wait to see how the joints look?

Thanks,
Steve


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Old 12/23/2009, 05:02 PM   #599
Acrylics
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nrosdal View Post
ahh, the squeeze thing makes perfect sense. i have been just turning the bottle over and getting very sad when i have it dripping out of the tip before i have it in place and then making nice puddles for me along the way.

when sanding do you go from sanding with 600 to whte buffing compound too red??

thanks james, your posts have been invaluable in helping to understand how to get this to work for me.
Yep, gotta practice with those solvent bottles. Once you get it down, it makes gluing much easier

I rarely buff anything, I use Micro-Mesh for almost everything - much less heat build-up = less stress on the material. But when I do, yep 600 or 1000 grit, then I use an off-white compound, kinda creamy colored. I use two different buffing wheels; one tight weave for doing the actual buffing work that gets the compound. Then another loose weave wheel with no compound that I use very lightly, just enough to get any residual compound off - kinduva clean-up pass

...and... any time

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyboySMB View Post
I'm building my first sump - Great thread & info BTW

It will be made out of 1/4 inch material 18x27x10 (WxLxH) 3 section (skimmer - return - fuge). I'm wondering how small I can get away with on the top cutout flanges - 1 inch or do I have to go with 2 inch?

Using WO-4 as the bonding agent

Is it wrong to "plan" on running a bead of WO-16 on the inside of all the main joints or should I wait to see how the joints look?

Thanks,
Steve
Hi Steve, IMO 1" ought to be fine at 10" high. Most folks 'round here wouldn't even use one, but I think they're a good idea

Hmm, should you plan on using 16? not IMO. Only use it if absolutely necessary, I differ with a lot of people on this though. 16 will not add much strength at all. In these applications - it's just a sealant. IMO plan on not using it and build your sump accordingly. Then use it only if you hafta hafta
If you can get your hands on WO40, I'd much rather see folks use it, *much* better than 16 for these applications

HTH,
James


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Old 01/11/2010, 10:47 AM   #600
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Thanks,
Built it yesterday. I have the bottom & top left to glue up.

Should I try to get glue under all the seams (outside, bubble trap, fuge, etc) for the bottom at one time, or is that asking for trouble? If not, how should I approach it?

Thanks
Steve


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