Reef Central Online Community
The Filter Guys

Home Forum Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences View New Posts View Today's Posts

Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for marine aquarists Support our sponsors and mention Reef Central

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > General Interest Forums > Do It Yourself
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

Reply
Thread Tools
Old 07/18/2003, 01:14 PM   #51
Acrylics
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,228
Marc,
You are using extruded acrylic (Acrylite FF), this stuff turns to mush and thus squeezes dissolved acrylic out of the joint if you have too much solvent action. You can switch to cell cast acrylic and work by the same method that you are using now, or cut down on the solvent action by either: A) Not allowing it soak as long as you are in which case you have to be careful of splashing solvent as you pull the pins/wires or B) use a much smaller wire - something along the lines of (< .008") so you don't as much solvent in there or C) (preferred) both.

What happens is that the longer the solvent "soaks" the acrylic - the more acrylic gets attacked by the solvent. When you pull the wires or pins, the weight of the acrylic itself squeezes out much of the dissolved acrylic creating your large ooze bubbles. Extruded acrylic does not have to soak long at all - a few seconds is fine - much longer and you get the "big ooze".

To clean up that much ooze, take a sharp chisel and carefully pry those little bubbles out - they will pry out, just gotta be careful. Then run a light bead of solvent over those areas to "patch" them.

One other thing about using as much solvent as are is that the tank is much more apt to craze when you have that much action. Extruded has a very low tolerance for stress and solvents stress the acrylic - more solvent action = more stress = more likelyhood of crazing.

HTH,
James


Acrylics is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/18/2003, 01:25 PM   #52
melev
Moved On
 
melev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Ft Worth, Tx
Posts: 43,658
Well, this is a learning experience. I need to get finer wire, that is all there is to it.

I can pull the wire sooner, instead of waiting 30 to 90 seconds then. This was my first attempt in this method.

I did forget about one joint while I cleaned out my skimmer's collection cup, and realized it had been sitting 4 minutes, but was able to pull the wire out easily enough. That joint didn't pool out at all. So I was thinking maybe I should wait longer, not shorter.

I guess I shouldn't be thinking.....

Chiseling out the excess isn't a big deal, but crazing isn't a good thing. I hope that isn't going to happen with this one!


melev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/18/2003, 01:40 PM   #53
toddflash
Registered Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 61
I've been using the pin method and using extruded acrylic without any ill effects! Hopefully going to finish up my 50 gallon sump and start on my CA reactor!

Todd


toddflash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/18/2003, 09:02 PM   #54
Acrylics
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,228
Quote:
Originally posted by melev
Well, this is a learning experience. I need to get finer wire, that is all there is to it.

I did forget about one joint while I cleaned out my skimmer's collection cup, and realized it had been sitting 4 minutes, but was able to pull the wire out easily enough.
That joint didn't pool out at all. So I was thinking maybe I should wait longer, not shorter.
Doing this will leave a relatively weak joint as the solvent evaporates as in this case you're actually trying to get the acrylic pieces to expand to meet each other. Once in a while you can get away with it but not a good practice to follow.

Quote:
I guess I shouldn't be thinking.....
Oh, Marc.

James


Acrylics is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/19/2003, 12:00 AM   #55
melev
Moved On
 
melev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Ft Worth, Tx
Posts: 43,658
Got the sump done and built a few minutes ago.

I'll water test it in the morning. So far it looks excellent, and I love these seams far better than most I've done in the past. This method is slower and more aggravating, but the results are good. I just need to get finer wire and avoid the pooling-issue I dealt with on this one.

I noticed that sometimes I was able to remove the wire and the excess glue would bleed out the wire's hole, which would be another reason to avoid it sticking out on the inside of the project.

Doing internal baffles is much harder to get right, I noticed. No matter how much I measure, mark and cut, I still don't always get things tight enough for #3, and end up having to squirt in #16 unfortunately. I guess that is the nature of the beast.

This sump and refugium should hold over 80 gallons.


melev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/19/2003, 10:44 AM   #56
Zephrant
Premium Member
 
Zephrant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 3,227
To add to the above great tips, I would note that the type of bubbles you are getting makes it look like you waited too long to pull the pins. The goop has skinned over in most places, then when you drop the panel down it burps out every once in a while. By pulling the pins earlier, it creates a fairly smooth fillet, which shrinks down to almost nothing when it dries.

Often just before I pull the pins, I run another really quick line of #4 along the outside. That re-softens the edge, and since it is on the area to be trimmed off, it doesn't make a mess.

I still use standard sewing pins, but I intend to get some small piano wire some day.

Zeph


Zephrant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/19/2003, 11:30 PM   #57
toddflash
Registered Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 61
Hey Zeph,

Quick question for you! I'm in the process of building my sump, everything is going fine until I tried to put the bottom on the tank! So I ran a line of weldon 4 around the bottom lip of the tank (the part where the bottom of the tank attaches to the 4 sides) and pushed the bottom onto the tank. This definately didn't work! Most of the weldon didn't take to the tank and I had no good way to keep it pushed down so that the glue could dry. Well, hindsight is 20/20 but I'm trying to discover a good way to attach the bottom (now that the messed up bottom has become the top of the tank ).

My current thoughts are that I will use the pin method to carefully attach each side of the sump to the bottom panel until all four sides are connected.

Do you agree with how I'm doing this? Or am I trying to build the sump the hard way?


Thanks!

Todd


toddflash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/20/2003, 12:34 AM   #58
NAGA
Registered Member.
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Maryland
Posts: 495
What solvent your using as well as the material and very importantly is the temperature determines how long those pins should stay in. The thickness of the pins needs to be consistant as well. For anyone interested McMaster Carr sells some stainless wire (Piano wire) in a lot of different thicknesses. For 1/2" material and thinner I would use 10 to 12 thou wire. For 3/4" to 1 1/4" I would to to 16 to 18 thou. A 1/4 lb. coil will cost 7.00 and is a good investment if your going to build sumps/tanks. This time of year 30 seconds is plenty for leaving the pins in before pulling them. Cool weather you might go to 45 seconds. Leaving the pins in too long will leave marks/bubble trails in the seams. Weldon 3 works pretty quick and 30 seconds might be too much. MC Bond is a little slower than Weldon 4 and I have recently learned that adding a little more acid can slow it down some more. BTW this is a great thread!!!

NAGA


__________________
NAGA

Current Tank Info: none
NAGA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/20/2003, 12:42 AM   #59
NAGA
Registered Member.
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Maryland
Posts: 495
For anyone that wants to see what stress can do:

Take some 1" Acrolite FF material

Flame polish the crap out of it and I mean torch it good.

then take some ethanol alcohol and pour it on the material.

It will literally pop apart into small pieces........quite fun to watch!!!


__________________
NAGA

Current Tank Info: none
NAGA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/20/2003, 09:34 AM   #60
geshields
Premium Member
 
geshields's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 856
NAGA, too funny..


geshields is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/20/2003, 11:54 AM   #61
Acrylics
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,228
Quote:
Originally posted by NAGA
For anyone that wants to see what stress can do:

Take some 1" Acrolite FF material

Flame polish the crap out of it and I mean torch it good.

then take some ethanol alcohol and pour it on the material.

It will literally pop apart into small pieces........quite fun to watch!!!
Funny, I do the same thing with extruded tube to display crazing to my customers. Extruded tube is under such high stress already that a quick polish and one spray of alcohol will to the trick. I always like watching customer's eyes when I literally pull the tubing apart with my hands

As far as wire goes, you get get small segments of various wire sizes at www.smallpartsinc.com as well. They have malleable stainless steel wire that I use quite a bit.

James


Acrylics is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/20/2003, 10:36 PM   #62
melev
Moved On
 
melev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Ft Worth, Tx
Posts: 43,658
Thanks for your great thread, Zephrant. Here's what I made:

http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/tank/80g_sump.html

btw, you've got a PM.


melev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/21/2003, 12:00 AM   #63
NAGA
Registered Member.
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Maryland
Posts: 495
Looks very good!!!


__________________
NAGA

Current Tank Info: none
NAGA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/21/2003, 04:18 AM   #64
GrayWhale
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 104
Any suggestions on how to glue two pieces of acrylic face to face? I'm thinking of euro-bracing a 100g with two layers of 1/2" laminated together with lapped corner joints. It seems like this would be a more efficient use of materials than buying a 1" sheet, most of which would be cut away.


GrayWhale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/21/2003, 11:57 AM   #65
Acrylics
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,228
Quote:
Originally posted by GrayWhale
Any suggestions on how to glue two pieces of acrylic face to face? I'm thinking of euro-bracing a 100g with two layers of 1/2" laminated together with lapped corner joints. It seems like this would be a more efficient use of materials than buying a 1" sheet, most of which would be cut away.
More efficient - yes, but not nearly as strong. In doing a lap joint eurobrace alot of the stress is applied to the two corners which are more apt to crack while a radius corner will distribute the stress throughout the radius. More area per "X" amount of stress = more overall stress tolerance.
If you want to do the lap joint thing though, you can use solvent, Weld-on 40, make a laminating cement (methylene chloride and acrylic "nerf", or a variety of other ways.

HTH,
James


Acrylics is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/21/2003, 02:22 PM   #66
achilles1
Registered Member
 
achilles1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Orlando
Posts: 802
weld-on 42

Will the pin method work with weld-on 42? I know it's thick like syrup, put I would think that I would be able to fill the joint with the aplicator. I plan on using 1/2" acrylic. Can I still get a clear bubble free result? If excess comes out of the joint should I wipe it away or will it ruin the finish to the point that I can't polish it back to normal?


achilles1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/22/2003, 11:47 PM   #67
Zephrant
Premium Member
 
Zephrant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 3,227
I've not tried #42 yet, but have been considering it. I have heard that it is pretty thick, moose-snot comes to mind as the term used. I don't know if you could force it in the gap without using large pins, then you would have a lot of ooze when you pulled them.

Anyone try it before?

Zeph


Zephrant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/23/2003, 07:54 AM   #68
NAGA
Registered Member.
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Maryland
Posts: 495
I have not personally used it but, some of my co workers have. They say it is not the easiest to work with. The cartridges make it very hard to push the glue through. The ratio of the mix is predetermined and does not allow you to compensate for temperature. At around 80 degrees you have about 20 minutes to work with it. Also a lot of glue gets wasted in the long tip that is on the set up used to mix it before it comes out. Definitely not an efficient way of doing it IMO. On another note it is expensive. If one is worried about the ooze (excess) that come out of the joint you can use mylar tape along the edge and after it just begins to set up you can pull the tape up and get the glue cleanly off. You have less than a 5 minute window to do this because if you do it too soon the glue has not begun to harden enough and you just make a mess. If you wait too long the glue harden enough so you cannot snap it off.


HTH<


__________________
NAGA

Current Tank Info: none
NAGA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/23/2003, 11:40 AM   #69
Acrylics
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,228
Quote:
Originally posted by Zephrant
I've not tried #42 yet, but have been considering it. I have heard that it is pretty thick, moose-snot comes to mind as the term used. I don't know if you could force it in the gap without using large pins, then you would have a lot of ooze when you pulled them.

Anyone try it before?

Zeph
It is fairly thick and should not (IMO) be used with the "pins" method. One thing you really don't want to do is compress Weld-on 40/42, what you end up doing is squeezing it all out ending up with a dry/weak joint. Weldon 40/42 does not act in the same way as "normal" solvents as it is not a solvent at all but an acrylic resin that attacks the acrylic to be glued, albeit not nearly as much as regular solvent. Think of 40/42 as a "glue" whereas solvent creates a direct bond between two pieces.
If you use 40/42, you need to leave a slightly angled gap to fill - maybe .060-.090" Overfill this and allow for shrinkage, it will shrink about 20% +/-. Then flush cut, sand, and finish. many people leave a small piece of acrylic in the joint to create this gap - kinduva spacer of sorts, this piece is later cut off during finishing.
Another thing about 40/42 is you don't want to leave to too large a gap as it creates alot of heat in it's reaction - it can put off enough heat to smoke and *possibly* (I've heard stories) self combust. With 40 you can compensate for this somewhat by adjusting your mix ratios but cure time takes much longer, with 42 this is not allowed for at all as it is pre-portioned.
As Naga pointed out - it is expensive at $180 for the gun, $28 per cartridge, and about $1.50 per tip for the straight tips up to $14 per tip for the flexible ones which are disposed of after each use. If you are in the business and do this sort of thing often, it's a marvelous time saver (time is money) but probably doesn't make a whole lotta sense for most DIYers/hobbyists IMHO.

HTH,
James


Acrylics is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/23/2003, 11:18 PM   #70
Zephrant
Premium Member
 
Zephrant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 3,227
Thanks for the tips on the 40/42 guys- I've been considering it but have been balking at the costs involved.

Zeph


Zephrant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/24/2003, 07:36 AM   #71
achilles1
Registered Member
 
achilles1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Orlando
Posts: 802
This is a great thread! 42 is really expensive! 40 Is the same formula, but you can change the mix ratios and don't have the cost of the gun. I supposed you would brush it on the edge of the acylic and then join it. I don't know what that does for bubbles and oozing, but those are the two formulas they recommend for aqauriums. Is weld-on #4 really strond enough to hold a 1/2" 180 gallon sump?


achilles1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/24/2003, 03:39 PM   #72
Acrylics
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,228
Quote:
Originally posted by achilles1
This is a great thread! 42 is really expensive! 40 Is the same formula, but you can change the mix ratios and don't have the cost of the gun. I supposed you would brush it on the edge of the acylic and then join it. I don't know what that does for bubbles and oozing, but those are the two formulas they recommend for aqauriums. Is weld-on #4 really strond enough to hold a 1/2" 180 gallon sump?
Try mixing it (#40) in a tupperware dish then pouring it into the top of a syringe (I use 50cc) then replace the plunger and fill where needed.

Cyro recommends polymerizable and they do have their reasons but just about every "hobby" tank will be made by using solvent cements such as Weldon 4, so yes - it is very strong if done correctly.

James


Acrylics is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/30/2003, 11:56 PM   #73
Zephrant
Premium Member
 
Zephrant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 3,227
Acrylics- Have you found a source for 1oz glass syringes? I've been using 2oz squeeze bottles, but a local jobber has these big glass syringes that he says are the best.

Zeph


Zephrant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/31/2003, 12:37 AM   #74
melev
Moved On
 
melev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Ft Worth, Tx
Posts: 43,658
James, Zephrant,

I think I want to attempt to build an acrylic tank to replace my 29g. Using cell cast acrylic, would 3/8" be a good thickness for a tank that is 30 x 20 x 20? I'm going to put a black acrylic wall in the rear, to hide a closed loop pump and provide a real overflow with drilled holes in the base. Because it is acryliic, I may notch the rear to make room for my Remora to hang on the back.

I'd like to stay with 3/8", so if 20" is too tall for that thickness, I could drop it down to 18". Would that still swell too much?

My current tank is glass, 30 x 12 x 18.


melev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/31/2003, 12:39 AM   #75
marm64
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Saginaw, MN
Posts: 1,042
.
Quote:
Acrylics- Have you found a source for 1oz glass syringes?
I would check out a place that sells supplies for farm animals. I did find some glass at a feed store but can not remember if they had ones as large as 1 oz though


marm64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:42 PM.


TapaTalk Enabled

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2018 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright 1999-2014