exo overflow with return fed closed loop

bitts · 11/25/2009, 10:33 PM

does any one see some thing that im over looking in the plumbing on this?

uncleof6 · 11/26/2009, 12:13 AM

Just when I was thinking I had seen every plumbing Frankenstein there was, I see this

How is this supposed to work? I am not seeing the point to it.

Regards,

Jim

bitts · 11/26/2009, 10:00 AM

water is sent up from the sump through the return standpipe, thur the bubble trap, and then into the closed loop. first im wondering how to determin the needed hight between the entrince of the bubble trap and the top of the return stand pipe. so as to not have flow through the bubble trap be under presure or water overflow back into the overflow. second im wondering if the bubble trap is suffcent and if not how to make it so.

the point mmmmm....
wanted to not have any plumbing over the back of the tank and dont trust check valves

bitts · 11/26/2009, 04:37 PM

put in pumps and stuff.

uncleof6 · 11/26/2009, 06:17 PM

Well, I can't think of a justifiable reason to feed the input of your closed loop pump, via antisiphon towers, or any other "via", from the output of another pump. What I see here is, is a system that will not provide the "circulation" ( "chaotic" water movement in the tank) that is needed for a "reef tank," and would be completely unnecessary in a fish only tank. You will have some just sub surface water movement from the high returns, and some vertical mixing due to the low "closed loop" intake, however this is not sufficient. If you do use this system, you will still need power heads in the tank, to make up for what your closed loop is not giving you.

You should do some rethinking on your design here, and use the upper corner bulkheads for your sump returns, with the outlets within an 1" of the water surface agitating the surface for gas exchange. If you choose a closed loop over power heads, then your closed loop will need multiple outlets at different levels on the back of the tank, to give the "circulation" needed in the DT. No check valves, or "frankensteined" plumbing structures would be needed.

If another unspoken issue here is not wanting to drill more holes in the tank, then use power heads for your circulation.

Regards,

Jim

bitts · 11/26/2009, 07:07 PM

what if the closed loop had 4 points of return instead of 2. 2 high and 2 low, one above the other on oposite sides. plumbed from the pump into a 1" scwd, then if each side had a 3/4" scwd switching between the upper & lower return. would that do beter for flow?

how could the bulkheads be used as returns with out the tank draining to that point when the pumps are turned off. i did the hole tower thing to avoid ckeck valves and having to plumb returns over the back wall. if theres a beter way I'll do it, just couldent think of one.

ps the tank is a 29gal looking for turnover of about 50 - 70 x the display. comprable to my 10 gal looking for the return pump to push 150 - 200 gph after head loss to improve dwell time in the fuge.

uncleof6 · 11/26/2009, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bitts

what if the closed loop had 4 points of return instead of 2. 2 high and 2 low, one above the other on oposite sides. plumbed from the pump into a 1" scwd, then if each side had a 3/4" scwd switching between the upper & lower return. would that do beter for flow?

how could the bulkheads be used as returns with out the tank draining to that point when the pumps are turned off. i did the hole tower thing to avoid ckeck valves and having to plumb returns over the back wall. if theres a beter way I'll do it, just couldent think of one.

ps the tank is a 29gal looking for turnover of about 50 - 70 x the display. comprable to my 10 gal looking for the return pump to push 150 - 200 gph after head loss to improve dwell time in the fuge.

45 out of the bulkheads with the outlets within 1" of the water surface, should minimize the power out drain down from the tank. You should use a sump that is big enough to provide a fuge, (3 gal), skimmer if used in the sump, and return section, and still have room for the drain down. Smaller than this is not very useful for a sump.

This idea for the closed would/will work out a bit better.

Check valves will fail just when you need them the most, so your idea of designing so they are not needed is correct, but it is not as complicated as your drawings are.

Jim

bitts · 11/26/2009, 08:16 PM

sump wil be either 15 or 20 long, skimmer is euro-reef rs 80, thinkin quiet one 1200 for return and 3/4000 for the closed loop. also was planing eductor nozzels at the outlets.

would locline work as well as the 45s, assuming no, but always ask right.

uncleof6 · 11/26/2009, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bitts

sump wil be either 15 or 20 long, skimmer is euro-reef rs 80, thinkin quiet one 1200 for return and 3/4000 for the closed loop. also was planing eductor nozzels at the outlets.

would locline work as well as the 45s, assuming no, but always ask right.

Lockline is not exactly water tight.. so may drain down probably more than you would like.

With the eductors, you would need a pressure rated pump.

The Reeflo line of pumps would probably be your best choice. A barracuda (~4300 gph) or a dart (~3600 gph) and forget the eductors. (I don't really deal with submersible return pumps, so I usually don't comment on preference)

Jim

bitts · 11/26/2009, 09:59 PM

as far as the pumps go dont really like the quiet one's, their just cheap and "get the job done for now". that is untill the wife lets me upgrade. was looking at the dart but on a budget and lights won out.

back to plumbing. whats the resion for not having the one pump fed into the other. thuoght as long as there was always a way for the water to get through(past the pump if its turned off) things were ok. ie out the inlet in this case. this i find truly intresting so any info would be apreseated.

and thank you for your time so far.

uncleof6 · 11/26/2009, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bitts

as far as the pumps go dont really like the quiet one's, their just cheap and "get the job done for now". that is untill the wife lets me upgrade. was looking at the dart but on a budget and lights won out.

back to plumbing. whats the resion for not having the one pump fed into the other. thuoght as long as there was always a way for the water to get through(past the pump if its turned off) things were ok. ie out the inlet in this case. this i find truly intresting so any info would be apreseated.

and thank you for your time so far.

This is something that just is not done, as far as I know. But then I have never done this: i have never seen a case that it would be reasonable to do so, in a home aquarium. I cant even find a good quote on the subject.

This is similar to using a booster pump at the intake of another pump. A very elegant solution to a low positive suction head available scenario. But the booster would be a low speed pump, at the intake of a high speed multistage pump, for a very high head application. I am thinking that the impeller on the closed loop could reach a rather high speed out of the range of the design of the pump, as there is no static vertical head on the closed loop pump. It has been a while since I studied this stuff, so I am a bit rusty.......

Jim

bitts · 11/27/2009, 11:21 PM

awesome that sounds trully intreging. will of corse now have to go do all kinds of resding, thank you.

11/26/2009, 12:13 AM	#2
uncleof6 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: AWOL Posts: 12,013	Just when I was thinking I had seen every plumbing Frankenstein there was, I see this How is this supposed to work? I am not seeing the point to it. Regards, Jim __________________ "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." (oft attributed to Einstein; most likely paraphrasing by Roger Sessions; compactly articulates the principle of Occam's Razor) Current Tank Info: 325 6' wide Reef

11/26/2009, 06:17 PM	#5
uncleof6 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: AWOL Posts: 12,013	Well, I can't think of a justifiable reason to feed the input of your closed loop pump, via antisiphon towers, or any other "via", from the output of another pump. What I see here is, is a system that will not provide the "circulation" ( "chaotic" water movement in the tank) that is needed for a "reef tank," and would be completely unnecessary in a fish only tank. You will have some just sub surface water movement from the high returns, and some vertical mixing due to the low "closed loop" intake, however this is not sufficient. If you do use this system, you will still need power heads in the tank, to make up for what your closed loop is not giving you. You should do some rethinking on your design here, and use the upper corner bulkheads for your sump returns, with the outlets within an 1" of the water surface agitating the surface for gas exchange. If you choose a closed loop over power heads, then your closed loop will need multiple outlets at different levels on the back of the tank, to give the "circulation" needed in the DT. No check valves, or "frankensteined" plumbing structures would be needed. If another unspoken issue here is not wanting to drill more holes in the tank, then use power heads for your circulation. Regards, Jim __________________ "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." (oft attributed to Einstein; most likely paraphrasing by Roger Sessions; compactly articulates the principle of Occam's Razor) Current Tank Info: 325 6' wide Reef

11/26/2009, 07:07 PM	#6
bitts Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 36	what if the closed loop had 4 points of return instead of 2. 2 high and 2 low, one above the other on oposite sides. plumbed from the pump into a 1" scwd, then if each side had a 3/4" scwd switching between the upper & lower return. would that do beter for flow? how could the bulkheads be used as returns with out the tank draining to that point when the pumps are turned off. i did the hole tower thing to avoid ckeck valves and having to plumb returns over the back wall. if theres a beter way I'll do it, just couldent think of one. ps the tank is a 29gal looking for turnover of about 50 - 70 x the display. comprable to my 10 gal looking for the return pump to push 150 - 200 gph after head loss to improve dwell time in the fuge. Last edited by bitts; 11/26/2009 at 07:32 PM.

11/26/2009, 10:00 AM	#3
bitts Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 36	water is sent up from the sump through the return standpipe, thur the bubble trap, and then into the closed loop. first im wondering how to determin the needed hight between the entrince of the bubble trap and the top of the return stand pipe. so as to not have flow through the bubble trap be under presure or water overflow back into the overflow. second im wondering if the bubble trap is suffcent and if not how to make it so. the point mmmmm.... wanted to not have any plumbing over the back of the tank and dont trust check valves

11/26/2009, 08:16 PM	#8
bitts Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 36	sump wil be either 15 or 20 long, skimmer is euro-reef rs 80, thinkin quiet one 1200 for return and 3/4000 for the closed loop. also was planing eductor nozzels at the outlets. would locline work as well as the 45s, assuming no, but always ask right.

11/26/2009, 09:59 PM	#10
bitts Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 36	as far as the pumps go dont really like the quiet one's, their just cheap and "get the job done for now". that is untill the wife lets me upgrade. was looking at the dart but on a budget and lights won out. back to plumbing. whats the resion for not having the one pump fed into the other. thuoght as long as there was always a way for the water to get through(past the pump if its turned off) things were ok. ie out the inlet in this case. this i find truly intresting so any info would be apreseated. and thank you for your time so far.

11/27/2009, 11:21 PM	#12
bitts Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 36	awesome that sounds trully intreging. will of corse now have to go do all kinds of resding, thank you.