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Old 03/23/2011, 09:38 PM   #1
fowldave
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Exclamation confirming black ich, pictures attached

Earlier in the week I posted a question about my powder brown's gill area being a bit too red, but it didn't seem to be a serious threat. After a few days in QT tank he has been doing well and still is, until I inspected him really closely today under bright light and noticed black spots all over his body. I suspect it is black ich from the research I've done. Can anyone out there with experience with this disease confirm?

Also what is the best way to get rid of it because not as much literature as I was hoping would be out there on curing it, I guess its a lot rarer?
I have been reading that a freshwater/formalin combo bath for 15-30 (depending on stress level of fish) is the way to go. I have "Quick Cure" on hand, which is a 37% formadehide and 40% malachite green combination. Would this be safe to use on my powder brown tang?
Also do I treat the QT with anything? Doesn't seem like it makes sense to freshwater/formalin dip him and then put him back into a QT that is infested.

If Quick Cure is good use, the instructions are for dosing in the tank, not doing quick dips. Does the concentration of the Quick Cure remain the same even though i'm just using it to do quick freshwater dips with?

Sorry about all the questions, but this is one of the nicest looking fish I have ever seen and would hate to lose him. I thank you for your help in advance!


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File Type: jpg tang black ich 1.jpg (36.1 KB, 1199 views)
File Type: jpg tang black ich 2.jpg (20.2 KB, 1090 views)
File Type: jpg tang black ich 3.jpg (23.2 KB, 1007 views)
File Type: jpg tang black ich closeup.jpg (22.4 KB, 1141 views)
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Old 03/23/2011, 10:43 PM   #2
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also I just noticed two other things:

-that his left gill is barely moving compared to his right one
-his left fin at the area that it joins to his body is reddish/orange (you can see it in the third picture that I attached above)

Anyone out there that could help, please?


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Old 03/24/2011, 02:07 AM   #3
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some great info here

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1985626


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Old 03/24/2011, 09:35 AM   #4
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black ich is different from regular ich because it's a worm parasite. They are planarian flatworms that attach themselves to the skin and gill tissue which would be why the one gill isn't working well.

According to "The Marine Fish Health & Feeding Handbook" by Goemans and Ichinotsubo, the best treatment is formalin/malachite green freshwater baths and placing the fish in a hyposalinity hospital tank can be helpful too. It says you can also mix praziquantel (Droncit dewormer) in directly with food for the fish.

So I guess the best way would be to put the fish in hypo and treat with formalin/malachite green.

I hope he pulls through and hopefully is still eating!


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Old 03/24/2011, 11:50 AM   #5
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Good luck with him! Measure carefully, oxygenate extremely, and he's still looking healthy enough to make it.


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Old 03/24/2011, 12:12 PM   #6
stingythingy45
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Just a FYI.
The Kordon Rid Ich +
Has those ingredients and salts a m. green.


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Old 03/24/2011, 10:23 PM   #7
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Thanks guys, so you guys also agree this is most likely black ich right?

The only question i have is, I do these formalin/MG freshwater dips and then toss him back into the same hospital tank that he was in? Seems like I want to put him in a clean hospital tank that isn't infested with the parasite that I'm trying to get rid of. I'm doing 25% PWC every other day, making sure to sweep the glass bottom well, but still feel like its counter productive cause all it takes is one little parasite to live through it and multiply. What I'm asking basicly is how doing this formalin/MG dip 4-5 times every third day, will guarantee that by the end of it there isn't a single parasite alive?


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Old 03/24/2011, 11:08 PM   #8
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yeah I think it is black ich. Freshwater dips should last no longer than 5 minutes but if your fish is acting stressed immediately put him back in the tank. I think hyposalinity might be an easier way to go but you have to drop the salinity slow as to not stress out the fish.

If you do the freshwater dips make sure you aerate the bucket as formalin takes the oxygen away. The book I have says the best is a formalin/malachite green solution with the bath. The dose rate they list is 15-25mg/L formalin (1.25-2 drops per gallon) combined with 0.05mg/L malachite green for at least three treatments, every other day. I hope that helps! let us know how it goes!


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Old 03/28/2011, 08:18 PM   #9
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Hey guys, update on getting rid of this black ich.

I just finished bath number 2. I am bathing him in a freshwater formalin/malachite green solution at 77 degrees. 1.25 gallons of ro/di water and one drop of "Quick Cure" solution. I aerate heavily with an airstone during the process, matched temperatures exactly, and matched PH (baking soda works well here). During the dip I sweep the bottom of the QT by siphoning and clean out all pvc tubes.

The first bath lasted 8 minutes. During the entire time he was swimming around the container no problems at all and he showed absolutely no stress in the bath. However, after 48 hours of being back in his QT I noticed his lateral line is slightly more pronounced than before and his breathing has increased and the number of black spots have increased tremendously. Now this is when I did his second bath (a few minutes ago). He seemed perfectly fine during the bath, swimming around the container. This bath lasted 7 minutes. Reason I stopped it was because it was past the 5 minute mark (the goal for the bath) and he stopped swimming around the container, just swam in place, so i figured maybe he was feeling tired/stressed and stopped swimming, time to get him out no need to go any more to be safe.

Now he is back in his QT that isn't being medicated with anything. I'm slightly worried about the fact that I'm not medicating the tank and only doing the baths. Knowing the lifecycle of the parasite, what if the reason that I started seeing a tremendous increase in black dots on him over the last two days is because a tremendous amount of them are hatching at this stage and they are in the column. I feel he will continue to get assaulted with them over the next few days. I understand how this freshwater bath is going to kill the parasite off completely, but I worry that the state the tank/parasite is currently in can cause an extremely stressful situation for him, killing him before all the parasite is gone. Should I do some water changes between baths to eliminate some of the parasites in the column?

Also by doing the bath every 48 hours for 4-5 baths, do you really guarantee you kill off all the parasites? What I question is, what if one of the parasites winds up sticking in him right after a bath and releases itself off the fish to begin his next stage before I bath the fish 48 hours later? Since the QT isn't being medicated with anything to kill off the parasite this would allow the parasite to live another entire cycle at least. Or is it a fact that the parasite will at least stay on the fish for 48 hours and that is why you do a bath every other day?

My bad for all the questions, just want to learn more about the subject, so i understand it completely/what i'm doing and not just following blind orders.

Attached a pic of the setup for reference.


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Old 03/28/2011, 08:27 PM   #10
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The only way I can see controlling it in the QT tank is to have it at hyposalinity and then match the baths to that salinity. I think hypo is really the only thing that will keep the parasite weak while the fish isn't in it's baths. Sounds like it's going ok though otherwise. Keep feeding well perhaps with garlic to keep his immune system up. I wish the best for you! hopefully others will have more to say as well.


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Old 03/28/2011, 09:03 PM   #11
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Here are also two pictures of him, one of him after his first bath and one of him just now after the second bath. Sorry about the quality of the second picture just now, but you can see how much darker overall he is (especially visible in tail area. If I got a closeup you would see so many more black dots than my original closeup post. Should i be worrying or is it fine as long as I keep doing the baths?

Does anyone know what exactly i'm seeing as the black dots? Is this the actual parasite/worm or is it the burrow that they made or something else?

Thanks for your comments Lynnmw...

Anyone else with comments/expertise, it would be greatly appreciated.


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File Type: jpg after bath 2.jpg (25.2 KB, 367 views)
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Old 03/28/2011, 09:32 PM   #12
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I believe it is the worms that are showing as black dots. They didn't really have too good of a pic in the book I have. Mostly microscopic photos and illustration. The fish looks better tho! not nearly as many dots as before! Other comments anyone? I feel like I'm the only one talkin!


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Old 03/28/2011, 11:25 PM   #13
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I feel you should medicate the Qt. Just bathing him will not affect a cure. All your fresh water baths are causing more stress. Just leave him in Qt with the medication. Soak his food in garlic extract to help boost his immune system.


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Old 03/29/2011, 07:56 AM   #14
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Percula, could you explain why just bathing him doesn't affect a cure and only stresses him out?

Additionally what should I use for medication for black ich? from my research on the subject numerous sources all stated that formalin/mg freshwater baths are the best and most effective cure for black ich. There has been no mention anywhere on any medications that work for treatment in the qt. The only thing that I have come across is 1-2 forum individuals stating to use hypo on the qt. Unfortunately I only have a swing type hydrometer at this stage so I believe that automatically rules out that treatment option for me due to the inability to control salinity accuracy.

Percula(or anyone else for that matter) if u could provide a bit more information in reference to ur suggestions I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks.


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Old 03/29/2011, 08:11 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Percula9 View Post
I feel you should medicate the Qt. Just bathing him will not affect a cure. All your fresh water baths are causing more stress. Just leave him in Qt with the medication. Soak his food in garlic extract to help boost his immune system.
I agree with this.
Except for the garlic extract.
You need to put the fish in the hospital tank and medicate 100% of the time.


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Old 03/29/2011, 08:19 AM   #16
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Also,the main tank needs to stay fish less for couple months.
For fish-only tanks that have no freshwater sensitive invertebrates present, hyposalinity can be applied.


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Old 03/29/2011, 08:59 AM   #17
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I can foresee problems medicating in the QT tank all the time though. you would have to make sure there is tons of oxygen in the QT tank in order to leave the treatment in there all the time as the treatment completely depletes oxygen. All my research for treatment of black ich is the same as you are doing now. It's different from regular ich. It is all up to you what you want to do. Only you can observe how your fish is reacting to the treatment.


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Old 03/29/2011, 07:39 PM   #18
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I have had him in QT since I got him so thankfully nothing is in my DT.

Stingy, I'd love to treat him with something in the QT but what do you suggest I treat the tank with?

Is there really no medication that will kill black ich, just formalin/MG dips and hypo?

I have taken a few new pictures of him today because he has gotten worse in terms of the black spots and has stopped eating and swimming happily around. Now i'm really worried.

Is there anything other than black ich that this can be?


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File Type: jpg 2.jpg (23.3 KB, 185 views)
File Type: jpg 3.jpg (30.7 KB, 209 views)
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Old 03/29/2011, 08:11 PM   #19
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maybe he picked up a secondary infection from the black ich. hopefully someone else can point you in the right direction for treatment


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Old 03/29/2011, 08:35 PM   #20
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They will not go away unless you get him out of that tank. This is why you QT. Good job there. This would really suck if it was in a display.

Do the bath of formalin instead of putting him back in the QT you have to put him in another tank.

You need to run formalin in the hospital tank. Follow the instructions on the bottle. Mine states 2 drops per gallon every other day. Run an air stone at all times.

Do the freshwater dips help? Does he move around afterwards and seem more lively?

Since he is already in QT it might be best to just medicate that tank but the big purpose of the FW dip is to give immediate relief, try to get as many parasites off of the fish, then put into a clean environment where it can be medicated until it recovers.


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Old 03/29/2011, 08:48 PM   #21
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Treatment is going to require a proper identification of the malady. There's actually no such thing as "Black Ich." I'm reading a lot of suggestions that work great for actual Ich, but may not work, for whatever you're dealing with. What exact is it, that you're referring to, as "Black Ich?"


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Old 03/29/2011, 09:14 PM   #22
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I'd be VERY worried about putting a fish into RO/DI water with such a low pH. I believe the proper way to do a freshwater dip is to at least match the pH using some buffer as well as the temp (as you are doing) ..


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Old 03/30/2011, 07:20 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by returnofsid View Post
Treatment is going to require a proper identification of the malady. There's actually no such thing as "Black Ich." I'm reading a lot of suggestions that work great for actual Ich, but may not work, for whatever you're dealing with. What exact is it, that you're referring to, as "Black Ich?"
It is actually a worm parasite but most people refer to it commonly as black ich. It's actually called turbellarian and the parasites are planarian. It is most common in tangs.

if you feel this treatment isn't working you can call up your vet and try to get praziquantel (Droncit) which is a dewormer and it can be put directly into the QT at 1mg/L or you can mix it into food: 250mg/100grams of food.


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Old 03/30/2011, 07:22 PM   #24
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http://123fish.net/gc/pond/getDetail.php?ID=37034
Prazipro claims to treat it.


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Old 03/30/2011, 10:53 PM   #25
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The black spots that you see is not the worm parasite but hypermelanation of the skin. The life cycle of this parasite is much the same as regular ich(cryptocaryon irritans. It has to be killed in the free swimming tomite stage when new worms are looking for a host.


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