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Old 12/30/2012, 09:19 AM   #101
110galreef
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I think you will have issues with your sump that tall....How are you going to get anything in an or out, especially your arm down to the bottom for cleaning and maitenence
Maybe only go like 20" tall. Still should be plenty of room for back siphon?


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Old 12/30/2012, 09:47 AM   #102
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I have a ~6" clearance between the top of the sump and the front stud of the stand. The stud is a 2x5 so there's another 4.5" clearance from the bottom plywood. This limits any object I want to get into the sump to about 10" tall.

I don't plan to have anything that large on the sump. The first section is socks and the entire assembly can be removed from the side. The middle is a DSB and macro algae farm with LED lighting. I should have enough room to keep it cut back. This is the only section I wish I had a window in. The last section is the return with a bubble catching baffles, sensors, water level switch, heaters, etc...


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Old 12/30/2012, 12:50 PM   #103
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Looks awesome man! I love the framing on the inside wall.


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Old 12/30/2012, 01:25 PM   #104
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Don't know if you addressed this already, but you're going to be hating life with your first electricity bill as that tank is just going to be one giant heater in that garage. I wouldn't worry about using a space heater in the garage either, just use heaters in the tank, if you use the space heater you're using electricity to heat the entire garage (some of it escaping) to slow down the heat loss of the tank, if you just heat the tank the tank will heat up the garage slowing down the heat loss of the tank... i.e. you might as well limit your heating.

Also I see a few improvements to help against the heat loss. Thick foam board will go a long way if you attach to the side of the tank. I would maybe even go so far as to put a detachable wall hanging from your surge tank floor made of thick insulation to completely enclose the top part of the tank as well, just make sure it stays well away from those metal halide lamps, you will need to vent the humidity somehow but you're going to have humidity issues either way. Then when summer comes around you can remove the foam (although I suspect it might actually keep the tank cooler then too if you hit triple digits in that garage).

Overall though, bang up job you did I like it


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Old 12/30/2012, 03:53 PM   #105
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I have about 2000W in heaters in the tank. That is above the metal halides (500W so far) and the pumps (~1000W).

The space heater is mostly for my comfort as I work in the garage.

I like the idea of adding insulation to keep it warm in the winter and then taking it off in the summer.

The summers are the biggest concern. I will install a solar activated attic fan to vent it and the chiller has the cooling coils facing the garage door on the far end. I might turn it into a window chiller?

I may have to install a window a/c if things get too hot.

Another concern is the quality of the air getting to the tank. The surface area is large but in a closed garage, it may not be very healthy. A giant vent hood with soffit inlets to the area???


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Old 12/30/2012, 08:38 PM   #106
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I'm working on the surge and a flow diverter. These are two independent flow returns into the main tank.

Here is the flow diverter thread:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2249020


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Old 01/02/2013, 03:53 PM   #107
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BOOOOOYA from down the road. Good designing so far but I am READDDDY to see this surge tank up and running so I can plagiarize the design :P


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Old 01/02/2013, 09:42 PM   #108
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Actually thinking of a new surge valve based oh the success of my diverted design


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Old 01/03/2013, 02:01 PM   #109
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Actually thinking of a new surge valve based oh the success of my diverted design
I will be VERY interested to see the results on this. I plan on having nearly exactly the same setup as you (tank size, in-wall, and surge tanks). I too want a dang surge device with NO BUBBLESSSS! Several people have been successful with making a Calson surge with no micro bubbles but this requires a bit of tweaking and luck I think?

I dont think its possible to get rid of all bubbles though due to the air that will be pushed out of the pipe after the valve opens (the air beneath the valve).

That diverted design is quite nice and is a great cost saver from say an Ocean Motion. Here are some of my thoughts on applying this as an actuator valve.
  • The motor would need to be one that you can set the exact stop and start to it (degrees/rotation angle) or eventually it will get off course and not function how you would need it.
  • Not sure if hammer would be an issue?
  • It will most definately leak..Your fill line better be pumping quite a bit more than the combined leaking from the valvees so that the tank will fill in the appropriate amount of time.
  • If your ok with it leaking have you ever thought about using a knife valve? These require very little force to open or close. Quite cheap anything 3" and lower.


What kind of flow are you aiming for on the surge? You look at about a 4' average water height whichwould be 9,400GPH for your 2" pipe. If you went up to a 2.5" pipe, it would get ya 14,700GPH flow.

In regards to having 2 surges... I dont know much about natural current/flow in the ocean (particularly around reefs) but wouldnt one directional surge be more natural? I was actually considering 2 surges for myself but both on the same end of the aquarium facing the same direction.


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Old 01/03/2013, 04:40 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prestigious View Post
I dont think its possible to get rid of all bubbles though due to the air that will be pushed out of the pipe after the valve opens (the air beneath the valve).
There is no air in or after the valve. The whole assembly from the bulkhead in the surge resevoir to the outlet inside the tank is full of water. It is never released long enough for air to enter. There will even be about 6" of water permanently in the resevoir. It should be bubble free.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prestigious View Post
That diverted design is quite nice and is a great cost saver from say an Ocean Motion. Here are some of my thoughts on applying this as an actuator valve.
  • The motor would need to be one that you can set the exact stop and start to it (degrees/rotation angle) or eventually it will get off course and not function how you would need it.
  • Not sure if hammer would be an issue?
  • It will most definately leak..Your fill line better be pumping quite a bit more than the combined leaking from the valvees so that the tank will fill in the appropriate amount of time.
  • If your ok with it leaking have you ever thought about using a knife valve? These require very little force to open or close. Quite cheap anything 3" and lower.
I would install two push buttons. One would engage when the motor turns in one direction to stop it and reverse polarity to turn the other way... then the other button at the other end of the range would engage, etc...

It will leak, but these leaks are relatively small compared to the flow from the pumps (5% loss maybe).

I can't find a knife valve with a plastic shaft (all steel). That would have been ideal. I also considered breaking open a gate valve to allow it to leak some and reduce the torque to turn it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prestigious View Post
What kind of flow are you aiming for on the surge? You look at about a 4' average water height whichwould be 9,400GPH for your 2" pipe. If you went up to a 2.5" pipe, it would get ya 14,700GPH flow.

In regards to having 2 surges... I dont know much about natural current/flow in the ocean (particularly around reefs) but wouldnt one directional surge be more natural? I was actually considering 2 surges for myself but both on the same end of the aquarium facing the same direction.
Two surges at 2" and a 4' head would be about right (2 x 10K gph). It would only last about 3 seconds or so. Note that I oversized the sump and the overflow weir (end to end and deep) to accomodate this insanity. I snorkel and scuba and the flow around reefs is never laminar or unidirectional. It is constantly changing. Moving oxygen and nutrients all over and avoiding dead zones except in hidden crevices or buried regions.

I am going to have both the diverter for pump flow from either end ( 2 sinusoidal pipe flows with penductors ) + surge flow from two more pipes at either end. So, there will be 4 sources for water to flow in from the four corners of the tank... I am looking for controlled chaos (LOL)


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Old 01/03/2013, 05:02 PM   #111
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This is a awesome build! I wish I could use my garage for a fish room... but my garage is 29 degrees right now...


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Old 01/03/2013, 07:11 PM   #112
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Quote:
There is no air in or after the valve. The whole assembly from the bulkhead in the surge resevoir to the outlet inside the tank is full of water. It is never released long enough for air to enter. There will even be about 6" of water permanently in the resevoir. It should be bubble free.
OMG dumbbbbb brain fart on my end there....I was thinking once the valve closed that the water south of the valve would fall out haha.... My hydrology professor from college would of slapped me! I hope he doesnt see this post.

Thats very interesting that flow around reef is all directions, I guess I am thinking of a current? Also when I think of surge I think of waves which are one direction (in my mind anyways)

Quote:
I can't find a knife valve with a plastic shaft (all steel). That would have been ideal.
I have seen PVC knife/slide valves somewhere in my short life. Doing a quick Google search I found this though. http://www.mckeeplastics.co.nz/cms/p...ew=slide_valve


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Old 01/03/2013, 08:33 PM   #113
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Insulate and heat. My challenge is 107 degree summers in TX


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Old 01/04/2013, 12:00 AM   #114
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Since I live near ya I will give you some real life aquarium in the garage experience/advice. My sister has an in-wall tank that sits in the garage that they had terrible temperature issues with... believe it or not I think they had a harder time in the winter. She put Styrofoam on all sides of her tank which helped a few degrees but she experienced several fluctuation/fish death. The tank is now fixed however! We ended up building an insulated room around it which is very easy to keep at a constant temp. Only gave ourselves a couple feet of walking room behind the tank so the room is pretty small but does its job.


An uninsulated garage will have a heck of a time keeping 500 gallons of water and a garage at a temp of 76 deg when its 20 deg outside... god forbid a power outage in which you will have to have a generator on hand to run all your 3000W of heat. With this past week of cold we have had (and the next few days it looks like) I have been running a space heater in mine with 300W of heat emitters for my Aldabra tortoises and the ambient temp of the garage will never go over 60-65.


As for summers...one suggestion I will make is that those chillers put off a lot of heat.. and in closed areas end up working against themselves by heating up the room temp to over 80 degrees making them work even harder to keep the water cool. I suggest you just get some duct tube or exhaust hose, attatch it to the chiller, and run it up into the attic. You could even sit the chiller on the top shelf with your surge tank that way you only need 2 feet of hose/tube. Just a thought..


Just trying to prepare you for the idea you might need to build a small room around your tank OR completely insulate your garage. A cheaper simpler solution might be to drape clear plastic insulation fabric from the ceiling around your tank....not sure if thats what its called but like the stuff you walk through going into a walk-in freezer?


Hope this helps, looking forward to updates!


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Old 01/04/2013, 07:36 AM   #115
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Great ideas, prestigious. Thanks for the feedback.
My last attempt was an outside plywood and acrylic reef ~1000 gal with some decent coral growth. Natural sunlight, fresh air... Unfortunately, we had a severe freeze (2008 or 2009) and I couldn't maintain the water temp with 3000W. I had to build a makeshift greenhouse out of PVC and heavy plastic sheets. It actually worked.
Had to tear it down when it cracked due to the extreme temperature cycling. Building a plywood & fiberglass tank is not that bad unless you're going to test it against the Texas elements! Rain, ice, snow, heat waves ... Sometimes within days of each other. Should have gone all concrete but that's over with for now.


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Old 01/04/2013, 07:46 AM   #116
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The PVC knife valves have metal shafts (see it in the picture). Usually stainless steel for corrosive environments, but even a little steel is not welcome in a reef. If I
Found an all PVC, I'd use it in a heartbeat.


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Old 01/04/2013, 07:56 AM   #117
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As far as water motion, it's always coming and then going. Even the surface waves that end on the beach come in and then retract pulling a huge volume of water back with them before crashing on the beach again later. Even the tide comes in then goes out. There are very few things in a natural reef that flow in one direction all the time.

It's like breathing... Imagine inhaling only.. Always.


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Old 01/04/2013, 08:28 AM   #118
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As far as water motion, it's always coming and then going. Even the surface waves that end on the beach come in and then retract pulling a huge volume of water back with them before crashing on the beach again later. Even the tide comes in then goes out. There are very few things in a natural reef that flow in one direction all the time.

It's like breathing... Imagine inhaling only.. Always.
I think what your trying to say is the undertow. I get that, just didnt know if two giant surges (10,000GPH at a high velocity) from opposite directions colliding together in the middle would replicate a crashing wave followed by undertow. A Vortech on long pulse does a decent job stimulating this. When they collide I imagine it would have an interesting water effect in the middle....id like to see a fish response to it in the middle lol. Are you going to go BB for this? I dont think you will be able to have sand lasst in the middle but I might be wrong.

For my tank I was thinking a penensila style with overflow box on just one end of the tank. I would have both of my surges come from that same end and after the surge stops an undertow would be created from the large amount of water rushing into the overflow box from the added valume.

Meh... I dunno this is all theories lol. As I said, I will be interested to see your results


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Old 01/04/2013, 01:12 PM   #119
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FWIW...My setup is in the basement, has about 325g net water volume, and is maintained in a fish room about 20 x 15. I keep the room at ~ 71-73*(night-Day/lights) in the winter and also have 1000w of MH's.....

The temp will raise to about 79 when lights are on till about 9:30pm then fall to about 76.7* after about 7-8hrs. The heaters will kick off and on keeping the water at ~77* till the MH's start back up at 1:00pm

So even this rather large Water volume in a ~72* evenironment drops off a lot.
Summer time my tanks raises closer to 80* and only drops back to about 78* over night and never need heaters. Temp in the room is maintained by main house AC & Furnance and moisture is controlled via a dehumidifier. No air exchange. No special extra equipment.

Keepin mind depending on how cold your garage gets in the colder months in TX or the flip side Warm days in the summer...


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Old 01/06/2013, 01:18 AM   #120
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Thanks for the reference. I know the summer is going to be tough.

Next step is the sump so I can get the circulation system up an running...

Photobucket

It's 2' x 2' x 6'. The first section is 4 filter socks. The middle section is a dsb + caulerpa farm. The last is the level control and return section.


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Old 01/06/2013, 01:25 AM   #121
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The baffles have 2" widths to compensate for the 24" limitation on the depth of the sump. There's three bubble traps since I'm planning on an 8' high dual recirculating beckett injection protein skimmer returning into the first section (filter socks).

The 1" opening into the second section is to allow some fresh water to access the dsb surface. I may add a mesh and foam block to increase the resistance through the opening.


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Old 01/06/2013, 04:53 PM   #122
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If u can go with a little wider gap in baffles like 3" so ur hands fit for cleaning and whatnot


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Old 01/07/2013, 10:19 AM   #123
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You probably know what your doing just fine but I will make some suggestions.

Looks like your going with a RDSB for denitrification. By your diagram though I cant tell how large the DSB section is and depending on your bioload I am not sure if it will be big enough to export all your nitrates. I dont remember reading what you plan for phosphate export? I assume you will be using GFO? With that setup you would potentially have to frequently replace GFO (or regenerate) and do water changes. I will suggest using a smaller sized algae scrubber instead of GFO&DSB. These things are beasts at exporting phosphate and nitrate and can even starve your corals if they are oversized (too big, too much light, too long a photoperiod, etc). This will allow you to not rely so much on skimming and even let you get a smaller skimmer if you havnt already bought your skimmer. Also, water changes would ony be for the purpose of trace element replacement.

But, if your set with DSB I have some suggestions. Putting it in your sump + the small amount of space you have from top of sump to bottom of tank stand makes it very difficult to maintain/clean/pump out detritus. Consider plumbing those surge tank buffers you have on a "through" system and using those as RDSBs so you can pull them out and hose them as needed. Also, you mentioned calurpa... I would scratch that and use nothing or chaeto.... although you wont get very good growth if running with GFO.

Hope this helps


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Old 01/07/2013, 11:50 AM   #124
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No GFO.
The DSB is 24" x 24" and 6" deep in the middle section.
The macro algae is on an eggcrate and PVC pedestal in the 12" of water over the DSB. Harvesting this is the primary phosphate export.
The surge source is a pump at the tank level, not from the sump. The surge reservoir and MT form one cycle. The MT and sump form a separate cycle. The surge will flow into the sump, and that's why the sump's last section is oversized.

In terms of a refugium with DSB, why would I want it to be remote instead of in the main flow (except for maintenance)?


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Old 01/07/2013, 11:52 AM   #125
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Double post



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