Reef Central Online Community

Home Forum Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences View New Posts View Today's Posts

Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for marine aquarists Support our sponsors and mention Reef Central

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > General Interest Forums > Reef Discussion
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

Reply
Thread Tools
Old 08/11/2016, 10:56 AM   #76
NS Mike D
Registered Member
 
NS Mike D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Huntington, NY
Posts: 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul B View Post
No, maybe your fish are vegans. Were the oysters raw? I have no idea why they won't eat them. Everything in my tank eats them.
probably ruined then by adding cocktail sauce, yuck

On clams, however, that is a different story, yum


NS Mike D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/12/2016, 06:24 AM   #77
Subsea
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 1,477
What is in the seaweed?

When I grew Graciilaria Parvispora ( Red Ogo) commercially, I sent it off to a scientific lab to be analyzed. It is my belief that seaweed will absorb anythig in the water. I expected the 30:1 ratio of nitrogen to phosphorous but not the 5:1 ratio of potassium to nitrogen nor the 2:1 ratio of sulphur to nitrogen. I am rethinking my nutrient dosing procedures.


Gracilaria Parvispora dry weight analysis:

Nitrogen @ 2.50%
Phosphorous @ 0.082%
Potassium @ 13.54%
Calcium @ 0.555%
Magnesium @ 1.163
Sulfur @ 4.82
Zinc @ 139ppm
Iron @ 107ppm
Manganese @ 20ppm
Copper @ 7.0 ppm


__________________
Laissez les bons temps rouler,
Patrick Castille

Current Tank Info: 10,000G. Greenhouse Macro Growout
Subsea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/13/2016, 08:06 PM   #78
Subsea
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 1,477
Quote:
Originally Posted by NS Mike D View Post
Paul and SubSeas, I was watching food 4 partt series on Netflix, and one was dedicated to bacteria and fungi. Not only do chefs use bacteria and fungi to create awesome flavors and textures, they spoke about the health benefits.

For example, fermentation in making bread from whole wheat (not the supermarket fake stuff) sustained human society for eons. Now we strip out all the good nutrients of wheat leaving empty carbs.

The sterile tank approach reminds me of what we have done to our own food chain.
We are just beginning to find out about the importance of bacteria in the human body. With 80%-90% of all neurotransmitters developed in the itestine, the importance of gut bacteria can not be over stated.


__________________
Laissez les bons temps rouler,
Patrick Castille

Current Tank Info: 10,000G. Greenhouse Macro Growout
Subsea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/14/2016, 01:32 AM   #79
OllieNZ
Registered Member
 
OllieNZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subsea View Post
When I grew Graciilaria Parvispora ( Red Ogo) commercially, I sent it off to a scientific lab to be analyzed. It is my belief that seaweed will absorb anythig in the water. I expected the 30:1 ratio of nitrogen to phosphorous but not the 5:1 ratio of potassium to nitrogen nor the 2:1 ratio of sulphur to nitrogen. I am rethinking my nutrient dosing procedures.


Gracilaria Parvispora dry weight analysis:

Nitrogen @ 2.50%
Phosphorous @ 0.082%
Potassium @ 13.54%
Calcium @ 0.555%
Magnesium @ 1.163
Sulfur @ 4.82
Zinc @ 139ppm
Iron @ 107ppm
Manganese @ 20ppm
Copper @ 7.0 ppm
Potassium is an important and often overlooked macro nutrient for macrophytes. This is why most diy macro fertiliser mixes for planted freshwater tanks are based on KNO3 and K2PO4 and depending on your needs maybe some additional K and Mg as well.

I'm surprised given the amount of testing and dosing of things like Ca/Mg/Alk that when someone asks about bumping their nitrate up the stock answer is a rather imprecise feed more.
Adding inorganic nitrate via NO3 has the benefit of being exactly calculable to a specific ppm value and not being derived via the nitrogen cycle it has no impact on BOD (biological oxygen demand). I do appreciate adding more food has other benefits such as providing the corals and filter feeding animals with additional particulate matter but it all depends on your goals


__________________
"Perhaps it is boredom, not intelligence, that has propelled humans up the evolutionary ladder."
_________

Reefed out
OllieNZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/14/2016, 09:50 AM   #80
Timfish
Registered Member
 
Timfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,506
Bugs Rule! Fascinating how research is proving some of the observations and conclusions of aquarists like Paul B and Steve Tyree. Rohwer's "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" is an excellent place to start. The stuff done by Dr. Andreas Haas* showing the roles algae have in promoting heterotrophic (oxygen depleting) microbes and corals promote autotrophic (oxygen enriching) is a real eye opener on natural filtration in our systems.
De Deoij's** cryptic sponge research may be a bit off topic but proves Tyree's ideas on cryptic zones.

*http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23882445
**http://www.rug.nl/research/portal/fi...letethesis.pdf


__________________
"Our crystal clear aquaria come nowhere close to the nutrient loads that swirl around natural reefs" Charles Delbeek
Timfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/14/2016, 01:04 PM   #81
H2OCulture
Registered Member
 
H2OCulture's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Posts: 82
I'll bite. "Natural filtration" a.k.a. cultivating organisms for nutrient export, has always been a sub-set of reefing, and has its origins in the planted aquarium world. (hi-tech planted aquariums are nearly as extensive as reefs.) However, the examples of "natural filtration" that usually furnish the conversation are larger aquariums which have been established for many years. It's true that many large, old, successful aquariums run with little to no protein skimming, but that's because they are large, and established. Our water to bioload volumes are so astronomical compared to the natural reef that anyone who attempts to start an aquarium on "natural" techniques alone is more than likely doomed to disappointment. We need the "hi-tech" mechanical and chemical filtration because our bio loads for a given water volume ratio is so high.


__________________
"Just add water"
"Just say NO to detritus" February TOTM 2011

Le Châtelier is my clean-up crew.

Current Tank Info: 29 Gallon Mixed Reef
H2OCulture is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/14/2016, 03:12 PM   #82
Subsea
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 1,477
Quote:
Originally Posted by H2OCulture View Post
I'll bite. "Natural filtration" a.k.a. cultivating organisms for nutrient export, has always been a sub-set of reefing, and has its origins in the planted aquarium world. (hi-tech planted aquariums are nearly as extensive as reefs.) However, the examples of "natural filtration" that usually furnish the conversation are larger aquariums which have been established for many years. It's true that many large, old, successful aquariums run with little to no protein skimming, but that's because they are large, and established. Our water to bioload volumes are so astronomical compared to the natural reef that anyone who attempts to start an aquarium on "natural" techniques alone is more than likely doomed to disappointment. We need the "hi-tech" mechanical and chemical filtration because our bio loads for a given water volume ratio is so high.
First, I don't do natural filtration for nutrient export. I set up complex food webs and recycle nutrients by feeding fish and coral.

I have 25 reef fish in my 75G Jaubert Plenumn on top with mixed soft corals and LPS.

What do you call a high bio load that requires hi-tech mechanical and chemical filtration?


__________________
Laissez les bons temps rouler,
Patrick Castille

Current Tank Info: 10,000G. Greenhouse Macro Growout
Subsea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/14/2016, 03:21 PM   #83
H2OCulture
Registered Member
 
H2OCulture's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Posts: 82
Very cool!! That's approaching "aquaculture" in terms of density! But, yes, that's the level of density I was referring to, nicely done if you're doing it naturally.

Quick question, if you are setting up food webs, have you used anything besides Phyto to increase the levels of copepods in your aquarium? I always wondered about dosing yeast, but have yet to try it.

Thanks for your reply!


__________________
"Just add water"
"Just say NO to detritus" February TOTM 2011

Le Châtelier is my clean-up crew.

Current Tank Info: 29 Gallon Mixed Reef
H2OCulture is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/14/2016, 03:35 PM   #84
Subsea
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 1,477
Quote:
Originally Posted by H2OCulture View Post
Very cool!! That's approaching "aquaculture" in terms of density! But, yes, that's the level of density I was referring to, nicely done if you're doing it naturally.

Quick question, if you are setting up food webs, have you used anything besides Phyto to increase the levels of copepods in your aquarium? I always wondered about dosing yeast, but have yet to try it.

Thanks for your reply!
Phytoplankton and pods are one food web. Typically, yeast is used to feed roitfers, which would feed pods. In my mud filter/refugium I allow unfiltered display tank water to deposit detritus to feed numerous worms and things. These detrivores reproduce and feed tank filter feeders.

40% of body mass of free swimming bacteria is phytoplankton. Corals and algae both eat bacteria.

http://www.livescience.com/7618-bact...algae-eat.html

http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/abo...Corals-Eat.htm

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-01/eb/index.htm


__________________
Laissez les bons temps rouler,
Patrick Castille

Current Tank Info: 10,000G. Greenhouse Macro Growout
Subsea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/14/2016, 04:46 PM   #85
Nano sapiens
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: East Bay, Northern California
Posts: 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by H2OCulture View Post
I'll bite. "Natural filtration" a.k.a. cultivating organisms for nutrient export, has always been a sub-set of reefing, and has its origins in the planted aquarium world. (hi-tech planted aquariums are nearly as extensive as reefs.) However, the examples of "natural filtration" that usually furnish the conversation are larger aquariums which have been established for many years. It's true that many large, old, successful aquariums run with little to no protein skimming, but that's because they are large, and established. Our water to bioload volumes are so astronomical compared to the natural reef that anyone who attempts to start an aquarium on "natural" techniques alone is more than likely doomed to disappointment. We need the "hi-tech" mechanical and chemical filtration because our bio loads for a given water volume ratio is so high.
^^ Unfortunately, this is a common misconception stated by various individuals and groups within this hobby. My old medium sized 55g ran without any mechanical/chemical filtration (just Live rock and live sand) for 9+ years before I downsized to a small 12g...which is fully stocked and has been running for over 8 years using the same 'natural filtration' methodology.

In the 'nano' reef tank world, there are examples of relatively large biomass to what most would consider tiny volumes of water using 'natural filtration' methods (only live rock and live sand) that have run for many, many years. As with most reef systems (but especially important for these small tanks), some hobbyist intervention is required via regular water changes and detritus removal if one wants the system to be at it's best.



Last edited by Nano sapiens; 08/14/2016 at 05:17 PM.
Nano sapiens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/14/2016, 05:41 PM   #86
AlSimmons
Registered Member
 
AlSimmons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: California
Posts: 1,702
Couldn't you just grease up your elbows and do the work? Keeping a happy healthy reef tank for years on end in not that difficult if you are willing to do the work. (no refugiums, no ATS etc)

Just as an example. if you were to walk into that MACNA and see two healthy tanks right next to each other. Both of the owners have been given all the bells & whistles. The guy on the left is all about a KISS, the guy on the right is all about that "technology." Who would you rather talk to? It sounds to me like the guy on the left has got more money in his pocket. It's kind of like chess. Why win in 10 moves when it can be done in 5? If that's not an "Intelligent Design" then I don't know what is.



Last edited by AlSimmons; 08/14/2016 at 06:33 PM.
AlSimmons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/14/2016, 09:40 PM   #87
Subsea
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 1,477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timfish View Post
Bugs Rule! Fascinating how research is proving some of the observations and conclusions of aquarists like Paul B and Steve Tyree. Rohwer's "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" is an excellent place to start. The stuff done by Dr. Andreas Haas* showing the roles algae have in promoting heterotrophic (oxygen depleting) microbes and corals promote autotrophic (oxygen enriching) is a real eye opener on natural filtration in our systems.
De Deoij's** cryptic sponge research may be a bit off topic but proves Tyree's ideas on cryptic zones.

*http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23882445
**http://www.rug.nl/research/portal/fi...letethesis.pdf

Yes indeed, bugs rule. I would have thought that Steve Tyree's cryptic zone filtration included bacteria as much as sponges.


__________________
Laissez les bons temps rouler,
Patrick Castille

Current Tank Info: 10,000G. Greenhouse Macro Growout
Subsea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/14/2016, 11:47 PM   #88
Nano sapiens
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: East Bay, Northern California
Posts: 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subsea View Post
Yes indeed, bugs rule. I would have thought that Steve Tyree's cryptic zone filtration included bacteria as much as sponges.
It does, indeed. The point can be made, however, that any mature and healthy reef aquarium ecosystem with a decent amount of live rock has lots bacteria and sponges in both the display tank and filtration areas (if they aren't regularly removed). Perhaps what set's Tyree's method apart is the sheer quantity of these organisms that can be cultivated in a dedicated cryptic zone and the resulting increase in coral nutrient sources (live/dead sponge cells, additional nitrates due to sponges harboring significant numbers of nitrifying bacteria, etc.).


Nano sapiens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/14/2016, 11:48 PM   #89
Nano sapiens
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: East Bay, Northern California
Posts: 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by abrrtiziel View Post
The Natural Reef Aquarium is a great book!
Absolutely! One of my favs


Nano sapiens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/15/2016, 01:29 AM   #90
photoblepharon
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subsea View Post
While I think that foam fractionators are unnecessary to maintain a reef tank, they would be detrimental to a NPS tank biotheme
Can we see pictures of a nice NPS tank that doesn't use a skimmer?


photoblepharon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/15/2016, 06:59 AM   #91
Subsea
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 1,477
Quote:
Originally Posted by photoblepharon View Post
Can we see pictures of a nice NPS tank that doesn't use a skimmer?
Because of my computer illiteracy I can't post pictures. link removed if you Google skimmerless NPS reef tanks,you can find numerous examples.


__________________
Laissez les bons temps rouler,
Patrick Castille

Current Tank Info: 10,000G. Greenhouse Macro Growout

Last edited by Misled; 08/15/2016 at 06:55 PM. Reason: Removed link
Subsea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/15/2016, 09:00 AM   #92
photoblepharon
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 74
Not seeing any nice looking NPS tanks on your website.

Google results for that phrase returns back one result that actually fits the description. It's a very nice looking 10g tank that's a year old with no update after that. Lots of water changes and media changes.


photoblepharon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/15/2016, 09:41 AM   #93
Subsea
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 1,477
Quote:
Originally Posted by photoblepharon View Post
Not seeing any nice looking NPS tanks on your website.

Google results for that phrase returns back one result that actually fits the description. It's a very nice looking 10g tank that's a year old with no update after that. Lots of water changes and media changes.
In my 45 years of reef keeping, I have had various NPS in my mixed reef gardens. All were skimmerless, but not NPS biotheme.


__________________
Laissez les bons temps rouler,
Patrick Castille

Current Tank Info: 10,000G. Greenhouse Macro Growout
Subsea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/15/2016, 10:01 AM   #94
Subsea
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 1,477
Quote:
Originally Posted by photoblepharon View Post
Not seeing any nice looking NPS tanks on your website.

Google results for that phrase returns back one result that actually fits the description. It's a very nice looking 10g tank that's a year old with no update after that. Lots of water changes and media changes.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/1/aafeature

Charles Delbrick curator for the Wakaki aquarium shows skimmerless NPS tanks.


__________________
Laissez les bons temps rouler,
Patrick Castille

Current Tank Info: 10,000G. Greenhouse Macro Growout
Subsea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/15/2016, 10:09 AM   #95
photoblepharon
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 74
I know Charles Delbeek well. He no longer works at the Waikiki Aquarium, but there are plenty of big skimmers there. They also have access to natural sea water and can make their tanks open system if they need to. Not really a very applicable example to closed systems.

I still haven't seen a nice skimmerless NPS tank.


photoblepharon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/15/2016, 11:03 AM   #96
Subsea
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 1,477
Quote:
Originally Posted by photoblepharon View Post
I know Charles Delbeek well. He no longer works at the Waikiki Aquarium, but there are plenty of big skimmers there. They also have access to natural sea water and can make their tanks open system if they need to. Not really a very applicable example to closed systems.

I still haven't seen a nice skimmerless NPS tank.

https://************.com/2012/09/16/...-coffee-reefs/

Excuse my ineptness with computer posting. If this link does not work, then google Mark Van Der Wal, skimmerless with SPS and NPS dominant reef tank.

PS. The link I provided is at Reef Builders web site.


__________________
Laissez les bons temps rouler,
Patrick Castille

Current Tank Info: 10,000G. Greenhouse Macro Growout
Subsea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/15/2016, 11:20 AM   #97
Subsea
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 1,477
Quote:
Originally Posted by photoblepharon View Post
I know Charles Delbeek well. He no longer works at the Waikiki Aquarium, but there are plenty of big skimmers there. They also have access to natural sea water and can make their tanks open system if they need to. Not really a very applicable example to closed systems.

I still haven't seen a nice skimmerless NPS tank.
As I read the advanced aquaria article by Charles Delbeek, there was no reference to big skimmers on the NPS tank. Yes the Waikiki Aquarium has access to NSW.


__________________
Laissez les bons temps rouler,
Patrick Castille

Current Tank Info: 10,000G. Greenhouse Macro Growout
Subsea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/15/2016, 11:49 AM   #98
ayrkpatrickla
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 4
The Natural Reef Aquarium is a great book!



ayrkpatrickla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/15/2016, 12:48 PM   #99
photoblepharon
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subsea View Post
As I read the advanced aquaria article by Charles Delbeek, there was no reference to big skimmers on the NPS tank. Yes the Waikiki Aquarium has access to NSW.
It says right in the article there is a continuous flow of natural seawater through the tank. This makes it pretty inapplicable to closed system aquariums.


photoblepharon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/15/2016, 12:49 PM   #100
photoblepharon
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 74
It's a link with a description but no pictures.



Last edited by Misled; 08/15/2016 at 07:06 PM. Reason: Driving traffic to other sites
photoblepharon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:29 PM.


TapaTalk Enabled

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2017 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright ©1999-2014