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Old 08/15/2016, 01:09 PM   #101
Subsea
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Quote:
Originally Posted by photoblepharon View Post
It's a link with a description but no pictures.
What exactly are you looking for? I never said that I had NPS biotheme tanks. I said that skimmers would be detrimental to a NPS biotheme tank.

Also, if you googled Mark Van Der Wal, you would find a skimmerless SPS/NPS tank on the Internet.


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Old 08/15/2016, 02:48 PM   #102
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Nutrient recycling of phosphate by cynobacteria

In nature, through natural evolution and survival of the fittest, energy is conserved. Meaning that nature uses biology and chemistry very efficiently. Multiple nutrient pathways provide complex food webs to feed tank inhabitants. It all starts with the bugs (microbial overlords, bacteria). Just ask the Martians in War of the Worlds if bacteria are important. If it weren't for blue/green cynobacteria Earth's athmosphere would still be methane gas.

Let us focus on cynobacteria. In the ocean enviroment, nitrogen as a free gas is converted into nitrate in a process called nitrogen fixation. In our reef tanks, inorganic phosphate in the form of calcium phosphate is converted into organic phosphate. Now you know why the water can be void of nutrients but cyno can still thrive.

When bacteria grow they absorb nutrients through their cell membrane. This includes nitrates and phosphates. Industrial waste water treatment R&D discovered that if bacteria were stressed with low oxygen levels, then phosphates were uptaken at a higher phosphate to nitrate ratio then when not stressed.


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Old 08/15/2016, 03:22 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Subsea View Post
What exactly are you looking for? I never said that I had NPS biotheme tanks. I said that skimmers would be detrimental to a NPS biotheme tank.

Also, if you googled Mark Van Der Wal, you would find a skimmerless SPS/NPS tank on the Internet.
I am also wondering what he is looking for.


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Old 08/15/2016, 07:54 PM   #104
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Natural filtration stocking levels

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Originally Posted by Nano sapiens View Post
^^ Unfortunately, this is a common misconception stated by various individuals and groups within this hobby. My old medium sized 55g ran without any mechanical/chemical filtration (just Live rock and live sand) for 9+ years before I downsized to a small 12g...which is fully stocked and has been running for over 8 years using the same 'natural filtration' methodology.

In the 'nano' reef tank world, there are examples of relatively large biomass to what most would consider tiny volumes of water using 'natural filtration' methods (only live rock and live sand) that have run for many, many years. As with most reef systems (but especially important for these small tanks), some hobbyist intervention is required via regular water changes and detritus removal if one wants the system to be at it's best.

+10 to what Nano Sapiens said.


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Old 08/15/2016, 10:44 PM   #105
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What exactly are you looking for? I never said that I had NPS biotheme tanks. I said that skimmers would be detrimental to a NPS biotheme tank.

Also, if you googled Mark Van Der Wal, you would find a skimmerless SPS/NPS tank on the Internet.
I was looking for some evidence to back up your blanket statement about skimmers being detrimental to an NPS tank, and it seems that you don't have any.

All of the nicest NPS tanks I've seen (uhuru, aquabacs, Steve Weast, mark54321, etc) have a skimmer on them. Mine do too and the corals certainly don't seem to be suffering for it.


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Old 08/15/2016, 11:48 PM   #106
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^^ Yeah, I noticed that, too. The author's paragraph mentions; "check out these videos of Minh’s old reef aquarium. Skimmerless and heavily fed, this tank is an eyeful of NPS, Gorgonians, and Goniopora", but I don't see any links...



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Old 08/16/2016, 05:16 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by photoblepharon View Post
I was looking for some evidence to back up your blanket statement about skimmers being detrimental to an NPS tank, and it seems that you don't have any.

All of the nicest NPS tanks I've seen (uhuru, aquabacs, Steve Weast, mark54321, etc) have a skimmer on them. Mine do too and the corals certainly don't seem to be suffering for it.

As in most things, we find evidence to support what we choose to believe. Instead of playing gotcha, ask me to support my blanket statement.

From what I have seen with most biotheme NPS tanks, a constant feed of food is added to tank as a drip. For that reason, a skimmer is used to remove this food before it pollutes the tank.
Using a refugium for nutrient recycling to feed the same NPS does not require a skimmer. Because the nutrients are alive, they do not pollute the tank.

PS. Did you google Mark Van Der Wal?


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Old 08/16/2016, 09:22 AM   #108
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The best support for that statement would be pictures of such a tank, which is what I asked for. The proof is in the pudding, as they say. I'm not interested in conceptual arguments.

I know Mark van der Wal pretty well. I don't think he ever had an NPS tank but he apparently wrote about them on RB. I can't find pics of them though. He doesn't have pics of one on his FB. Googling his name and NPS doesn't return much.


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Old 08/16/2016, 10:04 AM   #109
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Adding nutrients and while exporting nutrients. I do it. I didn't invent the concept, just mimicking successful reef tank owners. The concept of mother nature's energy/food cycle is easy to conceptualize, but the more I read studies and the complexities of the microfauna, the more elusive this concept becomes for me. At times, I feel like a juggler adding balls in the air, yet they aren't forming a neat elliptical flowing pattern.

I guess that's why there are differing beliefs in how to maintain what nature seems to do so easily.

And I guess that is why, for now, I will continue with the 10% water changes, even though I know 90% of what I want to remove will remain in the tank.

The logic of this hobby can drive one to insanity like a dog chasing it's tail


I love it


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Old 08/16/2016, 12:30 PM   #110
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Don't know if this is off topic but thought it was interesting

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/9/aafeature2/


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Old 08/16/2016, 03:56 PM   #111
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Forgive me, but I've read those this thread a few times and not sure I get the specifics. I understand the goal is to provide a food web and have natural methods instead of a sterile tank, but what are the methods you propose to achieve this? Minus Paul Bs method of gathering mud from outside (no offense, I love reading his posts!). How do you know your system is "there"? I already don't use socks, how do I increase the "right" kinds of bacteria & growth? Tank has been up since March and definitely pretty sterile still. Currently dealing with some cyano as well.


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Old 08/16/2016, 04:21 PM   #112
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Don't know if this is off topic but thought it was interesting

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/9/aafeature2/

It is not off topic. In fact, it is the point. I am very familiar with Ken Felderman.
He has a whole series of scientific papers on what we are talking about. He discusses the conceptual prototype and proves the concept with specific scientific qualitative results.
I do not think that pictures are the proof in the pudding. Pictures can be taken at a point in time that does not reflect a steady state for an aquarium.

Thank you for the link. Because I have done this commercially, I just did receive some demerit points from RC for posting links to other hobby sites,


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Old 08/16/2016, 05:11 PM   #113
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Forgive me, but I've read those this thread a few times and not sure I get the specifics. I understand the goal is to provide a food web and have natural methods instead of a sterile tank, but what are the methods you propose to achieve this? Minus Paul Bs method of gathering mud from outside (no offense, I love reading his posts!). How do you know your system is "there"? I already don't use socks, how do I increase the "right" kinds of bacteria & growth? Tank has been up since March and definitely pretty sterile still. Currently dealing with some cyano as well.

Pmj,

When you think you need to clean your glasses and after doing so, you continue to see squiggly things in the water, then you are there.
When you have filter feeders and sea apples with extended polyps after stirring your sand, then you are there.

How do you get there? First, establish the bottom of the food chain, bacteria, then move up the food chain to your janitors (CUC). Get janitors that reproduce in your tank (micro stars, Florida Cerith Snails, copepods and amphipods).

Bacteria for reef tanks can be purchased from scientific labs that specialize in aquaculture:

https://www.tlc-products.com/startsmart-complete/
I recommend this product. While you are at this site, go to the science behind product link.

Bacteria are also introduced with live food. I go to the HEB seafood display and get live oysters, clams and mussels. If you have read Paul's commits about gut bacteria and enhanced fish immune systems, you should feed these foods every day.


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Old 08/16/2016, 06:07 PM   #114
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Pmj,

When you think you need to clean your glasses and after doing so, you continue to see squiggly things in the water, then you are there.
When you have filter feeders and sea apples with extended polyps after stirring your sand, then you are there.

How do you get there? First, establish the bottom of the food chain, bacteria, then move up the food chain to your janitors (CUC). Get janitors that reproduce in your tank (micro stars, Florida Cerith Snails, copepods and amphipods).

Bacteria for reef tanks can be purchased from scientific labs that specialize in aquaculture:

https://www.tlc-products.com/startsmart-complete/
I recommend this product. While you are at this site, go to the science behind product link.

Bacteria are also introduced with live food. I go to the HEB seafood display and get live oysters, clams and mussels. If you have read Paul's commits about gut bacteria and enhanced fish immune systems, you should feed these foods every day.
I guess I'm wondering what I'm "missing". Tank is cycled obviously so I have denitrification bacteria. Started from pure ammonia and reef saver rock, so sterile as it gets.

Have pods & microstars, not enough though I'm sure it just takes time. Bought a pod pack and florida ceriths originally from reefcleaners (the ceriths actually lay eggs all the time, but probably get eaten) and chaeto from another reefer with tons of stuff (some stuff I can't identify to be honest). Live food I'll have to look for, I know the LFS I usually use doesn't have blackworms, I've asked. I do live in S. FL so I'm sure there are resources, just wondering how to fill in the gaps. I will check out the links more.


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Old 08/16/2016, 06:20 PM   #115
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I guess I'm wondering what I'm "missing". Tank is cycled obviously so I have denitrification bacteria. Started from pure ammonia and reef saver rock, so sterile as it gets.

Have pods & microstars, not enough though I'm sure it just takes time. Bought a pod pack and florida ceriths originally from reefcleaners (the ceriths actually lay eggs all the time, but probably get eaten) and chaeto from another reefer with tons of stuff (some stuff I can't identify to be honest). Live food I'll have to look for, I know the LFS I usually use doesn't have blackworms, I've asked. I do live in S. FL so I'm sure there are resources, just wondering how to fill in the gaps. I will check out the links more.
Why do you think you don't have enough? It sounds like you have plenty of what you can see. Bacteria can't be seen. Denitrification bacteria are only one group of necessary microbes. If you read the science behind the product at the link I provided, it would spell out differrent roles of bacteria in dependant of nitrogen cycle. Gut bacteria from live shellfish provide more diversity of bacteria.


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Old 08/16/2016, 06:24 PM   #116
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I do not think that pictures are the proof in the pudding. Pictures can be taken at a point in time that does not reflect a steady state for an aquarium.
Sure, a single picture doesn't always, necessarily mean what you're doing is working. Anybody can post a picture of a great looking Dendronephthya or Tubastraea straight from the ocean that dies a few months later. But it's hard for me to take anybody seriously who has an idea that just works well on paper and doesn't have a real world example to prove it works. You can demonstrate via many pictures over time that you are growing NPS corals using your principles.

For example, this is a heavily skimmed, heavily filtered tank with no refugium. Doesn't look like it's detrimental to the corals to me.


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Old 08/16/2016, 08:13 PM   #117
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Sure, a single picture doesn't always, necessarily mean what you're doing is working. Anybody can post a picture of a great looking Dendronephthya or Tubastraea straight from the ocean that dies a few months later. But it's hard for me to take anybody seriously who has an idea that just works well on paper and doesn't have a real world example to prove it works. You can demonstrate via many pictures over time that you are growing NPS corals using your principles.

For example, this is a heavily skimmed, heavily filtered tank with no refugium. Doesn't look like it's detrimental to the corals to me.

So as not to continue beating a dead horse, I should have said "that use of a skimmer could be detrimental to NPS if sufficient food was not made available to them". I choose to produce live food in tank and not to remove it via protein skimmers.

Your tank looks very nice and is a testimony of a serious reefkeeper.

Incidentally, I also know Charles Deelbric, Julian Sprung, Ron Schmeck and Anthony Calfo to name a few. I am glad we can all share in this marvelous hobby/passion


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Old 08/16/2016, 08:28 PM   #118
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Why do you think you don't have enough? It sounds like you have plenty of what you can see. Bacteria can't be seen. Denitrification bacteria are only one group of necessary microbes. If you read the science behind the product at the link I provided, it would spell out differrent roles of bacteria in dependant of nitrogen cycle. Gut bacteria from live shellfish provide more diversity of bacteria.
I don't have enough pods and stars is what I meant, and because I don't see as many as in my old tank. The TLC site just looks like plain old bacteria I already have and a bunch of salesmanship to be honest, though I'm sure it works if I needed a cycle quickly. I will look into live foods though.


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Old 08/16/2016, 08:33 PM   #119
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I am really looking for those minibrittles. i even have posts out to local reef societies. if anyone is sitting on a dozen and wouldn't mind shipping them to me I would appreciate it.


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Old 08/16/2016, 08:37 PM   #120
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I don't have enough pods and stars is what I meant, and because I don't see as many as in my old tank. The TLC site just looks like plain old bacteria I already have and a bunch of salesmanship to be honest, though I'm sure it works if I needed a cycle quickly. I will look into live foods though.

I have a Class 4 certification in waste water treatment, I am more than qualified to have an educated opinion on bacteria. Your concept of cycling a tank only scratches the surface on what bacteria do in our ecosystems that we call reef tanks.

Did you cycle your tank with gut bacteria to enhance fish immune system?

Bacteria produce enzymes to do many differrent functions. These bacteria are short lived in our artificial systems. It is your tank, put what you want into it.


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Old 08/17/2016, 07:07 AM   #121
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Generally speaking, reef hobbiest are passionate about their systems. Sometimes it is like discussing religion or politics. Instead of a dialogue, it's a discourse with people not hearing the other point of view. All to often, equipment manufactures have a following of lobiest that are proponents of that method. Many differrent methods of reef keeping will work. The methods used in nano and pico tanks would not be the same as those of us with large extended systems.

For those that think it is necessary to have hi-tech mechanical and chemical filtration, [removed]


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Old 08/17/2016, 10:44 AM   #122
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That is correct, but like I said, we will eventually learn. It will take some time though. I am also at fault because I was here at the start of this hobby and I also didn't get it for many years. Now my fish are immune and I never have to go on disease or quarantine threads and basically ignore them.
I try to tell people how I feel we should get our fish healthy and immune but I gave up on this site because it turns into arguments and I am to old to argue. I get nasty letters telling me how I am a detriment to the hobby for telling people these things.
This is a very large site with many people and they all have opinions. Many people started last Tuesday and they are of course correct. So I gave up on here.
The opinion others offer is no less important than yours. There is more to this hobby than anecdotal experience from one tank. We value the contributions from hobbyists of all experience levels. I hope no one feels they can't/shouldn't offer an opinion based on how long they have had a tank or how long they have been a member here.


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Old 08/17/2016, 11:00 AM   #123
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Brian that is of course correct. Everyone can have an opinion as long as they say it is an opinion and leave it at that. I also have many opinions and some of them were probably discovered to be wrong. I contributed almost nothing important to this thread for a reason. I realize my opinions, theories, practices and methods are controversial and my theories, practices, and methods are all just my opinion and not fact. So I keep most of them to myself. (unless someone PMs me) As I said, I am to old to argue.
Have a great day and please, everyone with an opinion on this keep posting no matter what your experience level.
I don't want to make this thread an argument or controversial, so I will leave it.


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Old 08/17/2016, 11:53 AM   #124
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Bacteria produce enzymes to do many differrent functions. These bacteria are short lived in our artificial systems.
This was a profound take away I got from reading the link to write ups. As being fairy new, I was looking at bacterial one dimensionally, I was not aware that my typical set up and maintenance would be so limiting, and how dosing bacteria could help off set the natural cycle of bacteria populating that favors one type.

I need to reread to get a better grasp and then translate to possible changes to my tank, but for now, I am not chasing NO3 & PO4 numbers, but rather thinking more about an overall re-cycling ecosystem.

Thanks for this thread.


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Old 08/17/2016, 12:14 PM   #125
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Fascinating read all around. Though seems like it may have been a bit more interesting before mods showed up haha.

This has me thinking, I have a section for a big filter sock in my sump, and I have to say I'm not the biggest fan. Would a small 7x7 section with a few inches of mud in the sump, before the skimmer section, be of any benefit to the tank do you guys think?


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