Reef Central Online Community
The Filter Guys

Home Forum Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences View New Posts View Today's Posts

Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for marine aquarists Support our sponsors and mention Reef Central

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > General Interest Forums > Reef Discussion
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

User Tag List

Reply
Thread Tools
Old 08/23/2016, 05:38 PM   #201
Subsea
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 1,852
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlSimmons View Post
Aside from the temperature and the salt, what's the difference between keeping some happy healthy goldfish on the patio in a wine barrel as opposed to some tropical beauties in a glass tank?

The public library?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.


__________________
Laissez les bons temps rouler,
Patrick Castille

Current Tank Info: 10,000G. Greenhouse Macro Growout
Subsea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/23/2016, 05:59 PM   #202
AlSimmons
Registered Member
 
AlSimmons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: California
Posts: 2,446
No doubt...

I'm not sure if you started this thread or not, but what was mentioned above is the gods honest truth. Once you understand how the "cycle" works it's all gravy, salt or not...

Have you ever played chess before? Winning in 20 moves is good. Winning in 10 moves is much better. Ultimately you understand how the game works and that beauty becomes a tear... (love?)

My name is SPAWN! (cool comic)



Last edited by AlSimmons; 08/23/2016 at 06:09 PM.
AlSimmons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/23/2016, 06:39 PM   #203
Subsea
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 1,852
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlSimmons View Post
No doubt...

I'm not sure if you started this thread or not, but what was mentioned above is the gods honest truth. Once you understand how the "cycle" works it's all gravy, salt or not...

Have you ever played chess before? Winning in 20 moves is good. Winning in 10 moves is much better. Ultimately you understand how the game works and that beauty becomes a tear... (love?)

My name is SPAWN! (cool comic)

I am the OP. YES, IT IS SIMPLE TO DO NATURAL FILTRATION.

AL,
Your last line is sheer poetry.


__________________
Laissez les bons temps rouler,
Patrick Castille

Current Tank Info: 10,000G. Greenhouse Macro Growout
Subsea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/24/2016, 07:04 AM   #204
Subsea
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 1,852
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subsea View Post
If you just want a mixed garden reef and don't want to be a slave with your time, then set up a simple lagoon tank. If you just want to enjoy the beauty of a reef tank without taking on the national debt, then select easy to care for inhabitants. How does one accomplish those two goals? First, leave the sump out of the design, it runs up the cost and it is unnecessary.

Design your system around the concept of a lagoon high nutrient reef tank. Use soft corals and mushrooms with assorted filter feeders. Use decorative macro like Red Grapes and utilitarian macro like Grape Caulerpa for nutrient export.

Use a 1" sand bed of arogonite to colonize bacteria for nitrification chemistry. The added benefit of arogonite is alkalinity buffering and trace mineral addition, automatically using the science of nature.

Be realistic with your fish population and don't over load your natural filtration system. Another just as important reason for conservative fish populations is the interaction between fish. If fish are crowded, it will often promote aggression between them.

PS. An added benefit of nutrient export of Grape Caulerpa is it being used for human consumption. It makes a great cheviche.

After begging for it, I finally was given enough Grape Caulerpa to set up a mono culture 55G tank. I an fertilizing this tank heavily with miracle grow and ammonia. I dose with vinegar, iron & iodine twice a week.


__________________
Laissez les bons temps rouler,
Patrick Castille

Current Tank Info: 10,000G. Greenhouse Macro Growout
Subsea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/24/2016, 09:36 AM   #205
sde1500
Registered Member
 
sde1500's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Glocester, RI
Posts: 3,124
Something about eating anything grown in my tank makes me shudder/gag. Don't think I could do it.


__________________
My build thread:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2548422

Current Tank Info: 65 gallon mixed reef, Eshopps sump and HOB overflow, RO-110int skimmer, Reefbreeder 32" photons V1.
sde1500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/24/2016, 11:10 AM   #206
smatter
Registered Member
 
smatter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 2,061
Quote:
Originally Posted by sde1500 View Post
Something about eating anything grown in my tank makes me shudder/gag. Don't think I could do it.
Right? I hate vegetables anyway


smatter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/24/2016, 02:54 PM   #207
Subsea
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 1,852
I eat aquacultured shrimp and fish. No problems so far.


__________________
Laissez les bons temps rouler,
Patrick Castille

Current Tank Info: 10,000G. Greenhouse Macro Growout
Subsea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/24/2016, 06:02 PM   #208
Misled
RC Mod
 
Misled's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa
Posts: 10,687
Blog Entries: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subsea View Post
I an fertilizing this tank heavily with miracle grow
I would give a second thought on the miracle grow. It's made more for flowering plants. You're adding a lot of phosphorous and potassium that won't be used up by the caulerpa. Caulerpa is basically just greens. Look into Milorganite, (poop-in-a-bag). It's mainly just nitrogen.


__________________
Jesse
If you're not the lead dog, the scenery never changes.

Current Tank Info: 80 gallon rimless Deep Blue lagoon under construction
Misled is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/24/2016, 08:12 PM   #209
Subsea
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 1,852
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misled View Post
I would give a second thought on the miracle grow. It's made more for flowering plants. You're adding a lot of phosphorous and potassium that won't be used up by the caulerpa. Caulerpa is basically just greens. Look into Milorganite, (poop-in-a-bag). It's mainly just nitrogen.

Actually, macro has much more than nitrogen in it. When I grew Red Ogo for human consumption, I sent it off to be analyzed in a scientific lab. I expected the 30:1 nitrogen to phosphate. That is why I added ammonia to miracle grow, to more closely reach 30:1 ratio of nitrate to phosphate. What I did not expect from lab analysis was that sulfur had twice the concentration as nitrogen. The biggest surprise was that potassium to nitrate ratio was 5:1.

Analysis by Ward Lab
Kearney, Nebraska

Red Ogo Seaweed

Nitrogen @ 2.59%
Phosphorus @ 0..082%
Potassium @ 13.54%
Calcium @ 0.555%
Magnesium @ 1.163%
Sulfur @ 4.81%
Zinc @ 139ppm
Iron @ 107ppm
Manganese @ 20ppm
Copper @ 7.0ppm


__________________
Laissez les bons temps rouler,
Patrick Castille

Current Tank Info: 10,000G. Greenhouse Macro Growout
Subsea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/24/2016, 09:01 PM   #210
Misled
RC Mod
 
Misled's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa
Posts: 10,687
Blog Entries: 11
Don't forget, most of those are readily available in salt water mixes. The copper surprises me more.


__________________
Jesse
If you're not the lead dog, the scenery never changes.

Current Tank Info: 80 gallon rimless Deep Blue lagoon under construction
Misled is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/25/2016, 03:33 AM   #211
Subsea
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 1,852
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misled View Post
Don't forget, most of those are readily available in salt water mixes. The copper surprises me more.

The ratio of the constituents in the salt mix is not the same as the ratio of the constituents in the dry analysis of the seaweed. Even a fertilizer like miracle grow, has a 1:1 ratio of nitrogen to potassium. However, Red Ogo had a 5:1 ratio of potassium to nitrogen. That is a far cry from accepted dogma from the reef hobby community.

PS: Coming from a background of industrial waste water treatment, uptake of heavy metals by vascular plants is a normal to expect.


__________________
Laissez les bons temps rouler,
Patrick Castille

Current Tank Info: 10,000G. Greenhouse Macro Growout
Subsea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/25/2016, 03:47 AM   #212
Subsea
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 1,852
Micro nutrients like zinc and cooper are unique in how they trigger biochemistry as an enzyme in a complex chain of reactions. Some years back, a neighbor farmer was working with the corporate extension department to optimize his grass production to feed cattle. With the simple addittion of zinc, the other major nutrients were made available to grow grass for forage.


__________________
Laissez les bons temps rouler,
Patrick Castille

Current Tank Info: 10,000G. Greenhouse Macro Growout
Subsea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/25/2016, 10:02 AM   #213
Subsea
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 1,852
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul B View Post
When I started my reef the only book available was Robert Straughn's "The Salt Water Aquarium in the Home" which I think I still have. In there someplace (it could have been another publication at the time as my 50 year old memories faded substantially) he advised adding garden soil to start the tank. I don't remember if I ever did this and have no idea if that would have any benefits but even though I use a lot of strange methods the thought of that does scare me a little.
I realize many people don't live near the sea. I don't know why not, but that is a fact.
I know they sell bacteria in a bottle which I feel is silly but it would be nice if someone (not me) sold and shipped fresh mud from some clean, muddy bay like from where I live. It is probably not legal because some congressman will say if you do that you may get a batch of invasive arrow crabs in Arizona or an octopus plague in Lake Titicoca. (wherever that is)

My first book was written by Martin Moe a PHD Microbiologist, he said in the early 1960's, "it is not Rocket science, it is more complicated".


__________________
Laissez les bons temps rouler,
Patrick Castille

Current Tank Info: 10,000G. Greenhouse Macro Growout
Subsea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/26/2016, 08:09 PM   #214
Subsea
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 1,852
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeemofree View Post
Do you think my system with dual chambers on to catch particulate matter to keep the main reverse flow deep sand bed clean, will end up being a nutrient sink? I designed it to be a calc reactor/denitrator, with very low flow, It is working very well currently but it is somewhat new.


What do you think about doing a Jaubert system with calcium reactor media for 4 inches and them an inch or two of course sand?

The Jaubert Plenum system involves 4"- 6" of crushed coral at 2mm-5mm diameter. With a larger diameter substrate oxyen will penetrate deeper into sand bed depths. Faculative bacteria will be in a much larger zone with more denitrification bacteria chemistry.


__________________
Laissez les bons temps rouler,
Patrick Castille

Current Tank Info: 10,000G. Greenhouse Macro Growout
Subsea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/27/2016, 08:25 AM   #215
provost_reefers
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Montana
Posts: 12
Thanks for the great thread. I'm working on upgrading my tank and planned on a plenum but so many options out there. I love all the life a more natural tank supports. I'll keep reading! Skimmerless has always been the way I lean and have seen much more life swimming in my tank when not running a skimmer.


provost_reefers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/27/2016, 08:36 AM   #216
Subsea
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 1,852
Welcome to reef central. I looked at your 90G set up. LPS & softies are easy and colorful. What kind of light? If you don't want pumps in tank, then use large pump to return flow from sump to display tank. Because I regularly use activated carbon, I use a canister filter to provide extra circulation at water surface in display tank.


__________________
Laissez les bons temps rouler,
Patrick Castille

Current Tank Info: 10,000G. Greenhouse Macro Growout
Subsea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/27/2016, 09:22 AM   #217
provost_reefers
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Montana
Posts: 12
I currently have 2 Aquamana full spectrum leds but don't really like the color. I'm looking at upgrading to the radions but they are a bit pricey. I appreciate the input on the flow, I want a lot of really soft, irregular flow.


provost_reefers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/27/2016, 09:53 AM   #218
Subsea
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 1,852
Quote:
Originally Posted by provost_reefers View Post
I currently have 2 Aquamana full spectrum leds but don't really like the color. I'm looking at upgrading to the radions but they are a bit pricey. I appreciate the input on the flow, I want a lot of really soft, irregular flow.
On a 4' tank, I like the distribution on this 4' LED light bar at a very low price. Two 108W light bars at $68 each will cover your 90G tank in 12K lighting.


__________________
Laissez les bons temps rouler,
Patrick Castille

Current Tank Info: 10,000G. Greenhouse Macro Growout
Subsea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/27/2016, 09:56 AM   #219
provost_reefers
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Montana
Posts: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subsea View Post
On a 4' tank, I like the distribution on this 4' LED light bar at a very low price. Two 108W light bars at $68 each will cover your 90G tank in 12K lighting.
Hi there, I would love more info on the light bar, there was no link or brand.


provost_reefers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/27/2016, 10:00 AM   #220
Subsea
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 1,852
Quote:
Originally Posted by provost_reefers View Post
Hi there, I would love more info on the light bar, there was no link or brand.
https://www.amazon.com/Lightimetunne...tank+light+bar


__________________
Laissez les bons temps rouler,
Patrick Castille

Current Tank Info: 10,000G. Greenhouse Macro Growout
Subsea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/27/2016, 10:10 AM   #221
Subsea
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 1,852
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subsea View Post

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Waterproof-B...0AAOSwWnFV-9yh

It is $53 on eBay, but longer shipping.


__________________
Laissez les bons temps rouler,
Patrick Castille

Current Tank Info: 10,000G. Greenhouse Macro Growout
Subsea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/27/2016, 01:29 PM   #222
Subsea
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 1,852
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misled View Post
Don't forget, most of those are readily available in salt water mixes. The copper surprises me more.
Both zinc and copper play important roles in the ocean as micro nutrients but high concentrations are lethal.

All Purpose water soluble Miracle Grow has

Total nitrogen @ 24%
Available Phosphate @ 8%
Soluble Potash @ 16%
Boron @ 0.02%
Copper @ 0.07%
Iron @ 0.15%
Manganese @ 0.05%
Molybdenum @ 0.0005%
Zinc @ 0.06%


__________________
Laissez les bons temps rouler,
Patrick Castille

Current Tank Info: 10,000G. Greenhouse Macro Growout
Subsea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/27/2016, 05:24 PM   #223
Misled
RC Mod
 
Misled's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa
Posts: 10,687
Blog Entries: 11
Milorganite

"100% organic"

N-P-K Analysis 5.0% Total Nitrogen (N)
2.0% Available Phosphate (P)
0.0% Potash (K-typically is about 0.5%)
4.0% Iron (Fe)
Typical Micro-nutrients
0.58% Sulfur (S)
0.68% Magnesium (Mg)
0.045% Zinc (Zn)
0.022% Copper (Cu)
0.133% Manganese (Mn)
Trace amounts of Boron (B) and Molybdenum (Mo)

This is at the bottom of Miracle Grows website:

Disposal Methods


Empty box: can be offered for recycling or disposed of in regular trash

Unused product: We recommend you use all product. If you do not wish to use, could give it to a friend or neighbor. Otherwise, we recommend contacting your local refuse company to inquire about a Household Hazardous waste pick-up.

What the heck does that mean???


__________________
Jesse
If you're not the lead dog, the scenery never changes.

Current Tank Info: 80 gallon rimless Deep Blue lagoon under construction
Misled is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/27/2016, 05:31 PM   #224
Subsea
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 1,852
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misled View Post
Milorganite

"100% organic"

N-P-K Analysis 5.0% Total Nitrogen (N)
2.0% Available Phosphate (P)
0.0% Potash (K-typically is about 0.5%)
4.0% Iron (Fe)
Typical Micro-nutrients
0.58% Sulfur (S)
0.68% Magnesium (Mg)
0.045% Zinc (Zn)
0.022% Copper (Cu)
0.133% Manganese (Mn)
Trace amounts of Boron (B) and Molybdenum (Mo)

This is at the bottom of Miracle Grows website:

Disposal Methods


Empty box: can be offered for recycling or disposed of in regular trash

Unused product: We recommend you use all product. If you do not wish to use, could give it to a friend or neighbor. Otherwise, we recommend contacting your local refuse company to inquire about a Household Hazardous waste pick-up.

What the heck does that mean???
Misled,
It means that we have too many lawyers. Perhaps we should take Platoe's advice, "First we kill the lawyers"."


__________________
Laissez les bons temps rouler,
Patrick Castille

Current Tank Info: 10,000G. Greenhouse Macro Growout
Subsea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/27/2016, 05:31 PM   #225
OllieNZ
Registered Member
 
OllieNZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misled View Post
Milorganite

"100% organic"

N-P-K Analysis 5.0% Total Nitrogen (N)
2.0% Available Phosphate (P)
0.0% Potash (K-typically is about 0.5%)
4.0% Iron (Fe)
Typical Micro-nutrients
0.58% Sulfur (S)
0.68% Magnesium (Mg)
0.045% Zinc (Zn)
0.022% Copper (Cu)
0.133% Manganese (Mn)
Trace amounts of Boron (B) and Molybdenum (Mo)

This is at the bottom of Miracle Grows website:

Disposal Methods


Empty box: can be offered for recycling or disposed of in regular trash

Unused product: We recommend you use all product. If you do not wish to use, could give it to a friend or neighbor. Otherwise, we recommend contacting your local refuse company to inquire about a Household Hazardous waste pick-up.

What the heck does that mean???
The source of N is most likely urea or ammonia, which technically makes it a hazardous substance.


__________________
"Perhaps it is boredom, not intelligence, that has propelled humans up the evolutionary ladder."
_________

Reefed out
OllieNZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:42 PM.


TapaTalk Enabled

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2018 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright 1999-2014
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.