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Old 08/29/2006, 10:52 PM   #251
melev
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zoom
I have some Iodine solution , you think that will work, i just need to be sure.

All of my SPS are encrusted on a large LR's so it is almost impassible to get them out but i will try to pull one out and try.
Iodine should be fine. If it is by Kent, you may new to use more.

Lugol's is very dense. Years ago, I put one drop in my 29g, and all was well. I thought 'ah, what the heck, I'll add one more for good measure...' My clownfish suddenly started gasping, and I stood there frozen in horror. It took about 10 minutes for things to settle down, and I really couldn't do anything to fix the disaster I'd created. Fortunately nothing bad happened. I just respect the nature of this particular product, and don't use it liberally.

The water in the bowl doesn't have to change color. A few drops of Lugol's doesn't make the water look any different, but if you have any amphipods or serpent starfish, they should start to really move. That would be the right amount to see if you have any AEFW.

Just pull out an acropora species that is reasonably handy. A. valida is the favorite. If you have a sickly one, I'd focus on that one in particular for this test.


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Old 08/30/2006, 05:59 AM   #252
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Well Travis....obviously we are seeing things differently. I am not here to argue tit-for-tat on this issue. So far I see positive points more common than negative. Stoney has very strong proof that this treatment is working......I will conduct my own tests when the tabs arrive. Have you tried this yourself? From what I hear about Lev/Beta/Lugol/etc. none of those would seem to be a good treatment either based on the number of negatve comments about tissue loss, bleaching, death....etc.....


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Old 08/30/2006, 08:02 AM   #253
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Well, I have read just about all the AEFW threads on RC and I have made the following conclusions, and I will provide what I consider to be the only way to get rid of them (based on my experiences with other parasites....the protocols are usually the same)

1) There is no in the display treatment. The drugs and chemicals known to kill the FW's are just too strong for the display. Maybe time will give us the gem like Interceptor is for RB's.

2) Reports of certain drugs killing corals is hard to discern. Mainly because we don't know the condition of the colony before treatment. We also don't know exactly what conditions the colonies are kept in with regards to water quality. Also, what concentrations of the chemicals were used, duration of the dips, and temps of the dips. ......etc.

3) Dipping colonies and immediately returning to the display is not going to eradicate these pests.

4) TMPCC/Levam/Betadine/FlukeTabs have all been shown to kill the FW's via dips.

5) From what I have read the FW's only host and eat Acro species.....fortunately.



So here is what I will consider to be the only viable way to eradicate this pest....until something better comes along.

A) MOST IMPORTANT: Quarantine the infected colonies leaving no acros in the display tank for a month, I plan on doing this for 2 months....just to be sure since no one has defined the life cycle properly. Putting the dipped colonies back into the display will be a losing battle.....In my experiences with other parasites you must break the life cycle....keep things clean, dip often, separate the host from the pests and starve out the remaining FW's in the display. If you love the acros then you must Pony-Up for a QT set-up.....do this methodically.....and do it right. Make sure the QT is just as good (with parameters) as the main display....these corals will be stressed from the FW's, and the dips... so optimal water/lighting conditions are a must!

B) Your first treatment is critical in having success. Kill all the live FW's via the first Dip and thoroughly search each colony for eggs to remove BEFORE adding them to the QT tank....this will make your life much easier and provide a successful QT cycle.


B) So far Fluke Tabs at the dosage and treatment duration StoneyMahoney used appear to be the best option. Otherwise TMPCC would be my second choice for the dips.

C) If the colonies do not get too stressed I would dip them at weekly intervals during the whole QT duration.

D) If you do not have AEFW's in your tank and you plan on buying more acros.....PONY-UP for a proper QT system and use prophylactic dips for FW's and RB's.....stop them before they get into your system.....I only wish I did this before I got started with Acros......You got to love this hobby (errrrr....money pit). I just recently purchased all necessary equipment to set up a 30gal cube for a Stoney display ($$$$$$Chaaaa...Chinggg$$$$$) ....this will be my QT tank until I am done buying Acros....


I base this procedure on experiences I had breeding True Chameleons (which in a way are much like Acros....they are colorful, very delicate, and riddled with parasites if wild caught). This system works.......It has been proven over and over....


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Old 08/30/2006, 08:23 AM   #254
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Quote:
Originally posted by melev
Awesome. Feel free to continue to contribute to this thread, as combined minds will hopefully find a working solution.

I see the eggcrate in your quarantine tank. Just curious why it is there - traction?

Can you discuss how you are maintaining water quality on a daily and weekly basis? Do you do weekly water changes? If so, how many gallons are you changing? Are you dosing anything like B-Ionic for calcium, alk, levels? Are you running a skimmer, and if so, when? Are you using water from your reef each water change?

The more facts we can get out there, the better it will be for others following in our steps.
Cool, just wanted to make sure Melev. The eggcrate in the bottom is b/c I had a few corals enrusted on big rocks so I broke them off at the base and glued them on some DIY frag plugs. A few of my others were on frag plugs as well, and the whole valida colony that I fragged were on plugs so I just needed something to keep them all upright. Ill probably put some 4-6" legs on the eggcrate this week for better circulation and lower my light a little closer to the tank.

As far as maintaining water quality, I am topping off with a DIY ATO using RODI water. Every 3 days I dose with seachem calcium, alk, and amino acid supplements to maintain acceptable levels. So far I have been doing a 20% water change weekely using instant ocean and RODI aged 1 day(No water from the display going in b/c I dont want planktonic rb or FW's getting in after all this!!). I have a crappy skimmer in the sump of the wet dry running 24/7 and as I stated earlier I am using an already established wet dry filter for the main bio-filtration. There is minimal algae growth and nothing to scary happening with the parameters. Nitrate, nitrite, and phosphate levels at or close to 0 and slightly rise as the week goes by. Calcium levels at app. 420-450ppm, alk at app. 10dkh, salinity readings at 1.026, PH is 8.3 during the lights on and gradually slides to 8.1 in the middle of the lights out period. Temp is 79 during the lights on and drops to about 77 at night. Lighting period is 12/12. Any other readings I missed ??????????

Heres some very useful info I found while searching:
http://zoology.unh.edu/faculty/litva...productive.htm
http://www.amscopub.com/%5Cimages%5C...a%20biology%22
http://bioweb.uwlax.edu/zoolab/Table...planaria_1.htm
And one more thing that could be worth a test...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract



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Last edited by Stoney Mahony; 08/30/2006 at 08:35 AM.
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Old 08/30/2006, 08:33 AM   #255
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Quote:
Originally posted by Neptune777
A) MOST IMPORTANT: Quarantine the infected colonies leaving no acros in the display tank for a month, I plan on doing this for 2 months....just to be sure since no one has defined the life cycle properly. [/B]
Yeah. I just read that the eggs of marine fw's can hatch anywhere form 7-21 days from when they were layed. 2 months sounds like a good time frame.


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Old 08/30/2006, 09:22 AM   #256
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Hey guys, I'm continuing to tag along with this thread and really appreciate the efforts everyone is putting into trying to find a solution to these creatures, and then posting about it. I have been debating setting up a coral QT ever since I found the FW's on an a. valida frag I had recently acquired (really only found 2 FW's and several eggs on the approx. 1.5 inch frag). That coral was a goner anyway, so I pulled it from the display immediately. I have about 6 other small acro frags in the tank which are spending alot of their energies right now encrusting the rocks they're mounted on. The other corals are looking pretty good and not showing any particular bad signs. I'm wondering if, given the situation of all of them being in the tank a very short time and no others showing problems at the moment, should I subject these small little corals to all this dipping and stress of being moved? If you think I still should, I could easily get all of these guys into a 10 gal. I'm wondering, just how much flow do you use while doing this QT process? Not sure if it needs to be high or low in there? I will most likely set up a coral QT at some point in time for future acquisitions anyway, but I'm just really debating doing all this expense and effort and then possibly just killing my corals treating them for something I can't see any evidence of at the moment. Thanks for any input.


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Old 08/30/2006, 09:45 AM   #257
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Shooter7, IMO I would set up a QT anyway if you plan on buying more corals (stoney or not). Since you had an infected colony in the display I personally would pull the others for a QT period.....Just my .02$


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Old 08/30/2006, 09:47 AM   #258
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How about my flow question...if I put them all in a 10 gal, would something like a MJ 1200 or something similar be ample enough, or do you go lower flow in the QT? thanks again


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Old 08/30/2006, 10:12 AM   #259
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No.... do not lower the flow. And be careful with a 10gal QT as the water parameters might swing in such a low volume. The QT should replicate optimal conditions that Corals require IMO...

Also the MJ1200 should be angled to provide indirect flow....fyi


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Old 08/30/2006, 10:47 AM   #260
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Melev....when can we hear a Reefcast on Fw's?


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Old 08/30/2006, 01:10 PM   #261
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Quote:
Originally posted by Neptune777
Well, I have read just about all the AEFW threads on RC and I have made the following conclusions, and I will provide what I consider to be the only way to get rid of them (based on my experiences with other parasites....the protocols are usually the same)

1) There is no in the display treatment. The drugs and chemicals known to kill the FW's are just too strong for the display. Maybe time will give us the gem like Interceptor is for RB's.

2) Reports of certain drugs killing corals is hard to discern. Mainly because we don't know the condition of the colony before treatment. We also don't know exactly what conditions the colonies are kept in with regards to water quality. Also, what concentrations of the chemicals were used, duration of the dips, and temps of the dips. ......etc.

3) Dipping colonies and immediately returning to the display is not going to eradicate these pests.

4) TMPCC/Levam/Betadine/FlukeTabs have all been shown to kill the FW's via dips.

5) From what I have read the FW's only host and eat Acro species.....fortunately.



So here is what I will consider to be the only viable way to eradicate this pest....until something better comes along.

A) MOST IMPORTANT: Quarantine the infected colonies leaving no acros in the display tank for a month, I plan on doing this for 2 months....just to be sure since no one has defined the life cycle properly. Putting the dipped colonies back into the display will be a losing battle.....In my experiences with other parasites you must break the life cycle....keep things clean, dip often, separate the host from the pests and starve out the remaining FW's in the display. If you love the acros then you must Pony-Up for a QT set-up.....do this methodically.....and do it right. Make sure the QT is just as good (with parameters) as the main display....these corals will be stressed from the FW's, and the dips... so optimal water/lighting conditions are a must!

B) Your first treatment is critical in having success. Kill all the live FW's via the first Dip and thoroughly search each colony for eggs to remove BEFORE adding them to the QT tank....this will make your life much easier and provide a successful QT cycle.


B) So far Fluke Tabs at the dosage and treatment duration StoneyMahoney used appear to be the best option. Otherwise TMPCC would be my second choice for the dips.

C) If the colonies do not get too stressed I would dip them at weekly intervals during the whole QT duration.

D) If you do not have AEFW's in your tank and you plan on buying more acros.....PONY-UP for a proper QT system and use prophylactic dips for FW's and RB's.....stop them before they get into your system.....I only wish I did this before I got started with Acros......You got to love this hobby (errrrr....money pit). I just recently purchased all necessary equipment to set up a 30gal cube for a Stoney display ($$$$$$Chaaaa...Chinggg$$$$$) ....this will be my QT tank until I am done buying Acros....


I base this procedure on experiences I had breeding True Chameleons (which in a way are much like Acros....they are colorful, very delicate, and riddled with parasites if wild caught). This system works.......It has been proven over and over....
Good observations, but the big problem with all of these treatments and effectively finding an in tank treatment is that we do not know the LD-50 of any of these compounds. The LD-5 is the lethal dose that 50% of the corals treated would die. LD-50's are commonly determined in pharmacological laboratory experiments. This dictates doses. The "condition of the colony before treatment" may be totally irrelavent.



Last edited by SERVO; 08/30/2006 at 01:37 PM.
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Old 08/30/2006, 01:45 PM   #262
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I agree Servo....I was just stating that if a coral is already weak then it's chances of survival from a dip are less than a healthy colony. At this point an "in the tank" treatment is a lost cause......I am taking the QT road myself.


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Old 08/30/2006, 02:28 PM   #263
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I can tell you that I have tortured some frags that were already so far gone that it's not even funny in my treatment. Like the Valida frag I posted with no flesh, I never even expected it to live(nor did I know they could survive w/o flesh and only polyps) but I was dipping the rest so I figured why not.. I dipped that thing 2 x, spayed it with the jet from an md5 and it is doing awesome.....who knew!


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Old 08/30/2006, 02:36 PM   #264
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Quote:
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Melev....when can we hear a Reefcast on Fw's?
Odds are it will be coming up. The next two shows are about MACNA and skimmers, and then there should be a show from MACNA itself.

In the meantime, I started a page about AEFW on my site to help organize my thoughts and to document what others are experiencing. It can be found via my Personal Log or Hidden Treasure.


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Old 08/30/2006, 05:08 PM   #265
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Great show by the way....I love to listen to it while I am working.

Wish I could attend MACNA...

My QT session starts this weekend. I will post some pictures of what I have going on......


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Old 08/30/2006, 08:44 PM   #266
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I agree with the 2 month "acro free" period. That is what we are employing.

As for fluke tabs, Frank from Trop Oasis spoke at our reef club meeting a couple of weeks ago and mentioned having great success using the tabs in a QT setup to eradicate the AEFWs and also to prevent new ones from making their way back into his tanks. But I could not make that meeting and don't honestly know what dosages (or which fluke tabs he used, if there are more than one brand out there).

I wil try to take a picture of our QT set up, with the remora HOB skimmer, 250W MH and 2 MJ 900s on a Chauvet for wavemaking (using indirect flow) on a 2' square tank.


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Old 08/30/2006, 10:19 PM   #267
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Please do, Tom. That would be valuable, I'm sure. Can you find out what product and dosage was used as well?


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Old 08/30/2006, 11:33 PM   #268
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Marc, I had sent a PM to Frank the week following his lecture, for brands, dosages, treatment protocols, etc, but had not yet received a response. I had been so busy at work that I have not yet had the chance to follow up with him. I did just send him another query in the form of a PM so we will see if I can get his attention and the favor of a response . I know that he is quite busy these days, but hopefully we will get lucky. I just wish I could have made it to his lecture, but it was just not in the cards


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Old 08/31/2006, 12:03 AM   #269
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Hopefully he'll respond. Or maybe he'll be at MACNA?


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Old 08/31/2006, 05:31 AM   #270
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Just updating that all corals were looking great this morning, full PE so I fed them some dts oyster eggs. I also bought a ton more fluke tabs yesterday so ill be doing experiments tommorrow and this weekend. Ill see how long they can actually hold up in this stuff. Also, the reason I think the fluke tabs could be a better dip than the betadine is b/c it's primarily two insectisides working together, and betadine is an antibacterial agent used to fight topical infection. The fw's are not a bacterial infection so your pretty much just nuking everything and hoping the FW's die off before the coral and zooxenthella do.

Also, it says right on the fluke tab box that it will not kill algae(zooxenthella in corals), plants or fish so thats probably why it doesn't nuke the color out of the corals. It does say "don't use in a reef tank" b/c it can kill invertabrates and effect nitrification. Depnding on how many invertabrates it kills, what types, and how much it effects nitrification you could possibly work out an in-tank treatment with this product in the future. I was thinking something like unhook filtration, add tabs to your display and wait the 20min. Then do a 50% water change, run carbon and do subsequent water changes in days to come. If you had good water to do the change, it could work out. Plenty of testing and experiments to come but I think one day well find an in tank treatment. Interceptor kills lots too but people still use it and there pods come back....It's all a mater of "how much" does it kill.......


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Old 08/31/2006, 05:58 AM   #271
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Excellent Stoney! This is looking better all the time....


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Old 08/31/2006, 08:45 AM   #272
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HMMM..Stoney...I am not sure ,who would take a chance to nuke A diplay tank with fluk tbs)..I wouldnt..
We all have delicate fish in our tanks ,corals and other valuables animals..I would do it in separate tank

but we are looking forward to ur reports..Good luck and thankx..


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Old 08/31/2006, 09:15 AM   #273
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I would , I can't imagine having to pull all the acros out of someone like snipersps's tank or Iwans or one of those monsters. I think it would be alot easier to pull a few fish and quarentine them for a week or two till you get your water back to normal, and let your biological filtration recover. Again, I think tons of testing should be done first(at this point, no I wouldnt nuke my tank either, thats why im using a QT ) but I would like to set up a series of 20 gal tanks, each housing the same species of corals, same conditions, and do some tests with different products. The problem is that there isnt a whole lot of people out there w/ saltwater labs set up so someones gonna have to bite the bullet and perform some controlled test over a peroid of time. Ill do what I can but I have confidence that the reefing community can figure it out. Lotsa smart people in here!


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Old 08/31/2006, 11:18 AM   #274
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Someone bit the bullet on Interceptor at some point......I think Stoney has the right approach........ Pretty safe assumtion that inverts will be nuked though if an in tank treatment was performed....same as Interceptor. The drug was designed as a fish treatment....we just need to know their LD-50 if we increase the dosage 4x.


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Old 08/31/2006, 11:33 AM   #275
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sparkss
Marc, I had sent a PM to Frank the week following his lecture, for brands, dosages, treatment protocols, etc, but had not yet received a response. I had been so busy at work that I have not yet had the chance to follow up with him. I did just send him another query in the form of a PM so we will see if I can get his attention and the favor of a response . I know that he is quite busy these days, but hopefully we will get lucky. I just wish I could have made it to his lecture, but it was just not in the cards
I think he is waiting to release more info at MACNA. He is going to be there. Well, that was what I was told.


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